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These are supposed to be the production paint jobs.

Here's a repost of what Mongoose Matt posted on the Froth Forums.  I'm not going to directly link to his post because those forums contain lots of swearing (sometimes in every post on a thread) and NSFW images/links in some threads.  While I'm a frequent FU:UK Froth Forums visitor I can't really import Froth over here since I'm a MOD here.  Anyway... here's the post from Matt:

Hi guys,

Yes, I just love my time here

Let's see if I cannot explain a few things that should put what you have seen into perspective.

Xeoran: What you have posted is not actually a preview - these are photos/details we have uploaded on to our site but have not selected for public display. A 'back door' (and not a very complex one at that) exists, however, that some people have used to gain access to these entries. This will be closed this week, once our web guys get their backsides in gear.

The price is not final - we are aiming for a £20 price point for infantry squads, and £15 for tanks. As I said, this page was not intended for public consumption and, at the end of the day, it is easier for us to reduce prices than raise them later.

This picture should give you a better eye view of the detail on the model;


Also remember this is just one set out of eight in the first month, and 52 released in the first year. Some may float your boat, some won't. We'll be doing a full expose on the first eight releases in a week or two - I would ask you to withhold judgement on the range entire until then.

DemonEtrigan: You are quite, quite wrong. These are the factory-produced models.

BMB: You wouldn't be paying $1 for these. Or, put another way, these models cannot be produced for $1 a piece. What you want, at this time, does not exist.

I'll explain why. There are several factors that go to place these models at their price point.

1. Hard plastic, rather than 'floppy' models. Costs more.
2. Defined sets rather than random mixes. Costs more.
3. Windowed boxes with individual titles so you can see what you are buying. Costs more.
4. Realistic camo schemes or variant paint schemes (as in the case of the MEA) rather than flat colours. Costs more.
5. Not being WotC or Wizkids and not being able to produce tens of thousands of units from the outset. Costs more.

That is why they cost what they do. Remove any one of the above, and things get cheaper. Which do we drop?

Rob: We are pushing the boat oout on these projects - which is not to say we won't get better over the next year as we produce more pre-painted models. However, I hope you have already seen our Mobile Infantry pre-paint samples? In any case, wait for our full preview PDF before making a snap judgement on BF Evo - they really are good models when you hold them in your hand. And that is before we get to the rules system

Adster: We are intending to price these at the same point as unpainted metal models. If we can reach the price point indicated above, we will have done this.

Redzed: Playing on a forum name ain't funny. Just makes you look like a twit. And the painting of pre-painted models is very much the selling point.

What would be the point, otherwise?

Nanite: They are 28mm scale. An interesting point to be made here - all weapons, equipment, etc, are directly in scale. But compare the rifles to what we are all used to in 'typical' sci-fi ranges (even ours).



Big Miller: I should explain the 90% statement we made. For the past year, we have been doing a fair bit of research at clubs, tournaments and stores. Part of this has been, quite simply, jotting down the standards of painting we see. Now, I am quite prepared to believe that a healthy proportion of people who visit this forum can paint to a better standard than any mass-produced pre-painted range can attain at the present time.

But you guys ain't average (in many ways, I suppose. . .). The 90% statement is correct and comes from our research. If you take a trip down to your local store, you might find yourselves having to agree. Not everyone is a great painter. Not everyone gets beyond undercoating their models.

Anyway, keep the comments coming, we listen to them all, even Redzed. And wait for the PDF we will be posting soon that will reveal all. We have good models and a good game coming.

I've posted this here because I thought it would be interesting to the general audience.  If interest isn't big I can just mover 'er over into the SST forum.

Well, I have no problems with those paint jobs at all. Here's the rub for me. I've been spending the better part of the last 2 days worknig on terrain like I've never done before. 2'x2' boards, with more detail than I've ever bothered with before. Why? because I plan on making 2007 the year of the prepainted game. No longer stuck painting at the mini painting table, I'm freed to indulge in another aspect of the hobby. Now I can have an entire painted force of minis on a fully tweaked out table. My gaming will never look as good as it will in the upcomming year.
As an aside, I' prefering the AT-43, but these mini's will no doubt push the envelope.

Mongoose will do well. Painted minis at unpainted prices, is pretty doable, certainly for a lot of Privateer products.

I still think Rackham's AT-43 line is far better sculpted, but Mongoose's paint jobs kick the crap out of the ones on the human soldiers in the AT-43 box.

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 10/03/2006 4:33 PM
I still think Rackham's AT-43 line is far better sculpted, but Mongoose's paint jobs kick the crap out of the ones on the human soldiers in the AT-43 box.

Agreed. Those sculpts look like they were based on pictures of models posing in General Electric/Lockheed/Grumman lobbying propaganda than of guys in a firefight, and those bland faces look like they were copied right out of a artist's guide to proportion.

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 10/03/2006 4:33 PM
I still think Rackham's AT-43 line is far better sculpted, but Mongoose's paint jobs kick the crap out of the ones on the human soldiers in the AT-43 box.

Totally agree with you on that.

Also, if you look at the pics in Signs & Portents 37, the Mongoose tanks look way to small for the scale of the infantry - the British infantry can look clear over the top of the Challenger II tanks for instance.  That has got to be wrong!

For me the best prepainted stuff in terms of both paint jobs and poses so far has got to be those Tannhauser models in Chris Valera's thread.

I *will* be buying some prepainteds in 2007.  The jury's still out on which though!

I don't know if this is because I'm so used to cartoon styling of GW toys, but these look ungainly, gangly, lanky.

Love the paint jobs though. If this is the production standard, I may well get some SST exosuits when they starts hitting the streets.

The problem I am having with this whole prepainted thing is a lack of variety. I think the biggest thing to happen to mini's as of late is the larger and larger expansion into customizable segmented plastic units.
Metals are always cool but people get tired of having a unit of infantry who look like they are line dancing, all in the same pose, all looking the same way, all using the same weapon. I am excited to hear about modern or near future combat rule sets, I am also in agreement with Kendo and the potential to expand into other parts of the hobby now that painting figs is out of the way. But look, it is my humble opinion that these minis, look like WELL PAINTED little green army men. Fricking sweet well armed nicely detailed army men, but army men none the less. If we are just gonna rave about the paint jobs great. but look at how limited the poses and....geez... facial expressions there are on these things, they look like they are all on lithium.

That's actually it. These look closer to correct proportion, although I think they're still off a little.

Echoing the comments of others, these just lack character. GW and Rackham sculpts might be prone to excess or cartoony-ness at times, but their stuff generally has more character. Until Mongoose is really able to hit a home run with their miniatures, some hobbyists aren't going to give them a serious look. The clix crowd might buy 'em, though.

Posted By Smoke3 on 10/04/2006 1:18 PM
but look at how limited the poses and....geez... facial expressions there are on these things, they look like they are all on lithium.

That was hil-fricken'-arious! No wonder you're a member of the church of the sub-genius! I love it

Ugh no way.  AT-43 are the best so far that I have seen.  But I will find out when the day comes my box of AT-43 comes in.

All in all both, are stil painted better than 90% of most what I see on the table that people bring.

Posted By Cybele on 10/06/2006 12:31 PM


All in all both, are stil painted better than 90% of most what I see on the table that people bring.

You know what ,I think that misses the point. If you want to play against well painted armies, paint you opponents army for them.  What kinda makes me cringe about this pre-painted thing is the loss of one of the coolest parts of this hooby, the individual imagination and "art" involved with building, designing, and fleshing out of unpainted armies.  I think the best venue for this prepainted thing is historical gaming  and maybe modern combat, where maybe the goal is the closest realism possible, but for fantasy and sci-fi based things imagination will always get my vote over limiting me to one paint job for one faction , for one model, for one character.


just MHO

thanks for listening

The troopers remind me of the Steelhead Halberdiers that Privateer Press puts out in that the legs are too long and join the body in a weird manner. I wonder if they were sculpted by the same person...

They're just off somehow, maybe a nice set of shoulder pads would spice them up.

Posted By Jester on 10/07/2006 6:55 PM
They're just off somehow, maybe a nice set of shoulder pads would spice them up.

it's the expressions, or lack thereof, they seem too placid, almost traquized.

They don't have to be bald and screaming but the faces are off.

 

Or they're British. Stiff upper lip and all that.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 10/07/2006 6:58 PM

Posted By Jester on 10/07/2006 6:55 PM
They're just off somehow, maybe a nice set of shoulder pads would spice them up.

it's the expressions, or lack thereof, they seem too placid, almost traquized.

They don't have to be bald and screaming but the faces are off.

 

Hey, I'd rather be that heavily medicated if I were under fire

www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php

All of the starting infantry boxes are up on preview, check em out.

The Marines and the MEA look much better than the PLA or British. I'm looking forward to trying this game out.

Oh the ones we saw were the PLA , ok now I get the empty faces and emotionless stances.

I agree crimson, I would like to see some rules for this.

I must admit to being somewhat disappointed at this point in time.

The primary cause is the poor definition in the sculpting I think. Forgiove me if I'm a bit harsh, but the sculpting looks not much better than some of my kids chatty plastic "Army Men" which cost around a penny each!

Take this British guy for instance:


Not only is his pose very static, but look at the (lack of) detail on his face - arounded blob of a nose, and on his boots - MASSIVE boots, way too big to bein scale. The general detail on the armour and gun looks lacking too - very rounded, which is a classiv giveaway of a cheap plastic mini.

While I think the paint job is OK, I am very disappointed with the sculpting and casting. I can't see myself paying £2 a pop for this level of detail. Add in the fact that the tanks look like they are made to a much smaller scale (when was the last time you saw an infantryman able to look clear across the top of a Challenger tank?) and I'm afraid this game is a non-starter for me.

Shame, as I really thought it would be a good 'un as SST is a good rules system, and I fancy the near-future milieu.

Yeah, but did anyone actually expect quality sculpting from Mongoose? I just expect excellent rules from them and bottom of the barrel sculpting.

I would hardly call these figures "bottom of the barrel sculpting". For historicals (even if they're "ultra modern"), they're dead on, solid quality sculpts that are at least equivalent to other similar historical lines and with passable prepaint jobs to boot. They're no Perry Brother's sculpts, but I don't think anyone expected them to be.

For whatever reason, SST seems to catch a lot of excessive hyperbole regarding their quality (or suposed lack thereof). I'm not suggesting they are Rackham or even Gee Dub quality, but they're definitely not "bottom of the barrel" either. There are many, many other companies with drastically worse output.

Well I strongly disagree with you there Nyarly! If we look at the big sci-fi gaming companies Mongoose literally puts out the worst sculpts.  Even compared to the smaller fantasty or sci-fi minature companies like Hasslefree, Heresy, Crunchwaffle, Olley's Armies, Fenyrll, Magnificent Egos, Wyrd, Corvus Belli (they make Warcrow and Infinity), etc, they're second rate. 

In fact, there are some ultra moderns that are better and come from companies with much smaller budgets for sculptors:  The Assault Group, Mongrel Miniatures, and Pig Iron Miniatures are all better.  Moreover, Kev White does fantastic modern human zombie hunters too.  In summery- Mongoose minis are at least the bottom of my barrel.

All that being said I don't mind some of those prepaints are pretty ok for prepainted non-rackham minis.  In fact, I'd say they're the best non-rackham prepainted minis out there.  I still won't buy them but that's because I'm into the hobby aspect first and foremost.  The only prepaints that've drawn me in are the fantastic Rackham ones.  I feel that the sculpting quality of the AT-43 models is so high I can strip and paint them later and still be happy with the sculpting quality.

There isn't enough ochre in the PLA camo.

We might have to agree to disagree! :p

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 10/14/2006 11:56 AM
Well I strongly disagree with you there Nyarly! If we look at the big sci-fi gaming companies Mongoose literally puts out the worst sculpts.  Even compared to the smaller fantasty or sci-fi minature companies like Hasslefree, Heresy, Crunchwaffle, Olley's Armies, Fenyrll, Magnificent Egos, Wyrd, Corvus Belli (they make Warcrow and Infinity), etc, they're second rate. 

In fact, there are some ultra moderns that are better and come from companies with much smaller budgets for sculptors:  The Assault Group, Mongrel Miniatures, and Pig Iron Miniatures are all better.  Moreover, Kev White does fantastic modern human zombie hunters too.  In summery- Mongoose minis are at least the bottom of my barrel.

See, this is what I'm getting at. You make a blanket statement that Mongoose's sculpts are the the bottom of the barrel and and compare them to the big sci-fi companies, yet you leave out direct competetors like WOTC(Hasbro), Topps and other clickies who definitely have much worse sculpts than Mongoose yet have considerably larger budgets. You even admit as much later: 

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 10/14/2006 11:56 AM
All that being said I don't mind some of those prepaints are pretty ok for prepainted non-rackham minis.  In fact, I'd say they're the best non-rackham prepainted minis out there.  I still won't buy them but that's because I'm into the hobby aspect first and foremost.  The only prepaints that've drawn me in are the fantastic Rackham ones.  I feel that the sculpting quality of the AT-43 models is so high I can strip and paint them later and still be happy with the sculpting quality.

Even if we are to leave out clickies in the comparison (which we shouldn't), there are plenty of other manufacturers out there making "worse" figures. Discount Hobby, Prince Whoever (that got a hold of the Warzone figs), West Wind Productions, Old Glory, and Black Tree Miniatures (amongst others), all which are of inferior quality (and not pre-assembled & pre-painted). Even amongst ultra-modern mfgrs, like TAG, they are of equivalent quality. I do, however, think Copplestone's figs are much better.

For whatever reason, it's become fashionable to bash their figures. Yes, the skinnies weren't great, but the rest of the line was at least as good as (if not better) than Warzone, Void, Vor (or whatever their modern incarnations may be called), or Warmachine figures but somehow they're "bottom of the barrel". It's like they put out one bad batch of figs and now Mongoose can't catch a break on anything.

Again, I am by no means saying Mongoose's Battlefield Evolution figures are the best historical sculpts out there. I would like to see the figures in bare resin/plastic, as it would assist in judging their quality, but as is they are at least of middling quality. To use a car analogy, they are like a Chevy (or any other middling American automaker that isn't GW, I mean GM). While not as flashy or well put together as a BMW or Land Rover, but they sure as hell aren't a Yugo or a Daewoo.

Me, I think these figs will make for great "28 Days Later" style games. Right out of the box usable, probably reasonably priced, and if SST is any measure, good rules to boot. They ain't Rackham or GW quality figs, but they'll do quite fine and be a sight better than anything Black Tree or Discount Hobbies puts out.

Now there's the rub. Here in the UK they are retailing at £2 each. That is the same price as a GW metal grunt (or at least it was before the UK price hike earlier this month), and many other Sci-fi competitors' metal non-hero models. Much more than most "historical" metals (IIRC Foundry are around £1 a-piece).

So the question is "is the perceived reduction in sculpt quality and weight (viz-a-viz metals) worth getting someone to paint them for you?"

As I personally enjoy painting, then from my POV the answer is "no". If the game is any good, if the opportunity arose to play I'd rather proxy my own metals. On the other hand if the price was around £1 a pop then I'd be tempted.

For me the benefit of having ready-painted figures isn't worth the drop in quality from the shoddy moulding. (And I'm sorry, it *is* shoddy. Very shoddy.)

The tanks are nice, and at £15 a pop, not badly priced. However, they are 20mm scale rather than the 28mm scale of the plastics (the 28mm standing models can look clear across the top of a Challenger II - which would be impossible if it were "true" scale. Perhaps, it may be possible to play the game with 20mm sci-fi or historicals.

But it probably isn't worth the hassle.