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Is Skorne underpowered?

I had a chance to peruse the Primal rulebook and was thinking of a Hexeris based list with a the Lord Tyrant, full Praetorians, Ancestral Guardian, Gladiator, Krea, full Acuarii and Paingivers.  The more I thought about it, the more there seemed to be really large problems with the entries in the list - so here are my initial impressions of this faction:

Warlocks - Other than Morghul, they seem fairly competitive.  No real problems here...

Heavy Infantry - Two flavours.  Harpoon dudes with medium-low ARM and weaponmaster, and Spear dudes with medium-low ARM and shieldwall.  You can combine with the Basilisk Krea for medum-high ARM - Slow.

Light Infantry - Average Speed - Two flavours.  Shooting and non-shooting.  CRA or Precise Strike  High end of Low ARM.  Paingivers have some synergy but have generally feeble stats.

Solos - Skorne get a very "Menite" solo.  He's slow as crap and can't attack without being soul-buffed first.  Good ARM + Weaponmaster and Reach seem nice, but he looks hard to take full advantage of.

Light Warbeasts - Cyclops - I dunno about this guy.  His animus is useful, but for sheer butkickery, he is worse than the Gladiator, and for synergy, he's worse than the Basilisks.  Both versions of the Basilisks seem pretty damn good in support roles.

Heavy Warbeasts:  Gladiator - Slow as crap and high ARM, slam-happy.  Cannoner - Gives the Skorne some shooting punch... though still generally crappier than a 2-hand-throw.

So.  It sounds good so far... what's there to complain about?

1.  The stuff is slow.  Other than the paingivers, there's no way to accelerate your horde.  There's no AD.  There's no pathfinder, and other than the light infantry and the two shooting units, everything needs to run in order to get into position to make use of their fancy abilities.  A few WH abilities that will absolutely wreck a Skorne host include:  Temporal Barrier, Inhospitable Ground and Murder of Crows.

2.  Most of the animi on the warbeasts either target "self" or are of a close range buff / debuff... the short range of which exacerbated by the slowness of the list.

3.  I can't see any way that the Skorne won't be owned by a shooting heavy list..  They have no concealment boosts, no stealth, no smoke.  While the Krea provides some protection against non CRAers and blasts, any of the usual Cygnar gun-line lists will eat the Skorne and in Hordes, the Seraph spam will make a mockery of a Skorne host.

4.  There's a lot of stuff with medium ARM (14-17).  Which means that units of charging fodder will cut through the expensive Skorne ranks without much trouble.  "Weak" units with P+S8 will give average charge rolls of 18-19 which is enough put significant damage on your expensive Cataphracts.  Commonly available boosted P+S 12 stands a good chance of outright killing one of those expensive ARM15 elite infantry.

That's not to say that the Skorne can't be competitive, but they do seem to be the weakest of the 4 hordes factions.

We have our first dedicated local Skorne player just starting up in our local campaign. He played Trollbloods last go around. We'll see how he does this time.

Don't look at what Skorne can do against Warmachine right now. NONE of the Hordes factions are truly competitive with the 4 books worth of releases that Warmachine sports. Look at them against other Hordes. Comparing them to TP, IG and MoCs is Apples and Oranges.

Having played this game(s) since it was pre-released at Gencon, the Skorne release reminds me the most of Prime Era Menoth. We were the 'underpowered' faction. Our Warjacks were costed over their abiities and you had to take Choir to make them useful. Our solo was a wasted VP. Our shooting unit was inaccurate and did very little to most infantry.

Having played Skorne a couple times against Trolls (without proxies) I can say that their release is currently the most 'meh'. They're good at nothing and don't really build well with the currently released models. They can put a hurt out to a medium degree, but tend to get outshot our outmaneuvered or outmagicked by the other current releases. Seraphs nuke them. Shredders overwhelm them. Warpwolves ambush them, trollbloods outnumber and outgun them. It's a bit of an uphill fight.

At the end of the day, I won't pass judgement until I see Evolution. THAT will more likely than not even the odds. Both game releases have had an army that just seems 'hodge podge' and without a plan with what's currently available. Ask a Mercenary player before the special contracts came out in Superiority.

If when they have more selection than they currently do I still can't make an interlocking plan using what they have available THEN I'll make a call. Till then, wait and see.

And don't compare them to Warmachine. That's comparing a 500lbs Gorrilla to Jackie Chan. Chan's got some moves, but they don't do much after the Gorilla pulls his arm off.

I have Skorne as my second army (Trolls as my prime)and I have played some great battles against Warmachine/Hordes. As to your statamane that "They are the weakest." I would have to disagree. Yes they are not that great against a Cygnar gun army but, They can still hold their own with any army you put the against. As for the the speed of tittan warbeasts look to Morghoul's Abuse or Makeda's Savagery spell (Makeda's is reaslly good). I like they the way Skorne play its more changing and you also have to remmeber  that Hordes is just starting. Warmachine has about 4 or 6 books out right now. Privateer press says the when Evolution comes out it should make Hordes more even playing against Warmachine. Until then Im playing like I got a pair win or lose with Skorne or Trolls.

Posted By Achilles on 10/25/2006 7:22 PM
Don't look at what Skorne can do against Warmachine right now. NONE of the Hordes factions are truly competitive with the 4 books worth of releases that Warmachine sports. Look at them against other Hordes. Comparing them to TP, IG and MoCs is Apples and Oranges.

Uh, I'm not -directly- comparing.  I just used two common shooting archetypes you might see in casual play, and commonly encountered "movement" barriers as examples. - Maybe I should have used Baldur's forest template, undergrowth and fertilizer as examples.   

It is more a debate as to whether I'm missing something integral in terms of hidden synergy in the Skorne list.

Oh, and in the Jackie Chan example...  Nobody messes with Jackie Chan.

When comparing accross the Hordes factions, Skorne are actually one of the most powerful, slightly behind Trolls.  Right now it doesn't seem that way, but that's because they don't have any of their really good units/warbeasts out yet.  This is due to how they are releasing the rest of Primal.  Once the Ancestral Guardian, Baslisk Krea, Cetrati, Venators, and Pain Givers are out, their games will turn around.  Most people really underestimate the Skorne since they don't have a whole lot out right now.  Take the Ancestral Guardian for example.  It is one of the best solos in Primal.  You can easily kill a couple of your own models in turn 1 to get some soul tokens on the Guardian.  With a MAT 8, weapon master, and a 13" threat range, it will slaughter most light warbeasts and almost all infantry. 

Anyway, I'm digress, the key to really understanding the Skorne is based on the current release schedule.  Once all of primal has been released, the Skorne will start to dominate games, especially the tourney scene.

DP6 - You'll notice in my initial thread that I was planning on building a list around

Hexeris + Gladiator / Paingiver combo + Acuarii / Krea combo and the Ancestral Guardian + Praetorian combo.

As half those models are unreleased - I am already looking at the entirety of what Primal gives Skorne in-faction.

Granted, without a lot of playtesting, it is hard to say which is better, the Acuarii or the Cetrati (I'd say the former, due to weapon master and the ability to shoot / hogtie), and whether the Venetors are better than the Praetorians... (I'd say the latter are better as neither will live long anyways - I'll take a POW12=3dD6 or 2x precision strike over the CRA - but then again, Praetorians seem more in-line with Hexeris' abilities.

But I digress.  The lack of mobility boosting other than the paingivers seems to be a significant drawback.

The Trollbloods are slow as well, but have higher ARM than Skorne and Tough, the Kriel Warriors self speed-up and the Axer's animus is a nice boost as well.  Circle has all-terrain out the wazoo, and Everblight is inherently fast.

OTOH, I suppose it might be possible to build a:

Warlock of Choice

Titan Canoneer x2
Venators x2

I have Skorne going on - I find them tough to use. Arcurai are a bit to quick to die. The whole army is a bit too slow. I do find that they hit hard though, and you can wring a lot out of them.

My current list is:
Hexaris
Titan Glad (x2)
Cyclops (x2)
Arcurai (x4)

OR

Hexaris
Titan Glad
Cyclops (x3)
Arcurai (x4)
Totem Hunter

I really like Hexaris. I love the deathbringer spell. His feat is great. I find that it is vital to use Subdue to slow down your opponents charges and to focus their attacks on models you want to die. I think when the Basilisks come out and the Centrati hit the shelves the Skorne will have a much more usable army - until then it'll be touch and go.

I'm worried that the Centrati can't dish out enough hurt without weapon master. They have shield wall, which is great, combined with the Basilisk Krea means that they are near indestructable vs. shooting - this also means that they are very slow. The Acuarii seem a better match for Hexeris when combined with Death March - though their "buffed" ARM even after the Krea is a disapointing 17. Which is kind of sad for a 20 point trooper.

keezus - I know and I didn't intend for it to sound as ranty as it looks. I was just trying to explain why they seem so much worse than the other factions.

I like the cetrati more because of their survivability. Aruarii just seem to die and not do much else, although last night they got me Krueger. Also, Cetrati are SPD 5 which is really not too bad in Hordes for multi-wound infantry. I don't have my primal handy, but if I remember correctly, they have set defense and powerful charge, so they have a slightly better DEF on the charge and have +2 to melee attack rolls when they charge. Overall, a fairly solid unit.

I think Hexeris is the one Skorne warlock that can operate fairly effectively without the Paingivers or the Ancestral Guardian. The list I've been using with him currently has been fun and fairly effective too.

Hexeris
Cyclops x 2
Titan Gladiator
9 Praetorians
4 Arcuarii
Totem hunter

Give skorne time. Skorne is like Menoth, its a synergy army. Its missing some of its omponents: drakes paingivers and a few odds and ends.

When enough stuff comes out, they can hang. Right now its just hard. Trust me, I've had to work hard for each and every win....

Imagine menoth without the choir, and with no devouts, no kreoss pop and drop, and melee zealots with no dude-with-cross.

That right now is skorne.

Chuck

Skorne != Menoth.

Skorne have more mobiliy support, multiwound infantry, etc. While they have similarities, so do other factions.

Skorne are a solid faction. Cyclops are an exceptional light Warbeast and the pachyderms pack a punch in both flavors. Their troops are rock solid and can get amazing speed with Makeda. Venators can also be used for clever movement tricks. Try pushing the AG towards the enemy (tee-hee). The Praets are an excellent basic troop and dirt cheap. Basilisks provide some great protection for your units.

Really, the Skorne don't have any stat weaknesses (good movement, shooting, MAT, DEF, ARM, etc.), though they lack certain abilities in abundance such as Pathfinder or Eyeless Sight (*wretch*wretch*).

So. Skorne is the deathwing of warmachine/hordes right now, eh?