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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bournemouth, UK

Having had a look at the new Eldar stuff, I found myself a little bemused with the price difference between the new warwalkers and wraithlord. Both of them appear to use about the same amount of raw material, so I couldn't understand why the warwalker was £15 and the wraithlord was £25.

Anyway I asked about this in a polite way at my local store and was informed by a redshirt that basically it was down to the type of model it was.  Basically it's a dreadnought and dreadnoughts are £25!?! So does this mean that all dreadnought are over priced or are warwalkers being sold at a loss, probably not the 1st option !?

 


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Barpharanges






Limbo

I most seriously doubt that anything GW sells is being sold "at a loss"...

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Longtime Dakkanaut






In da Mekshop

This is just more confirmation that GW models are priced according to how well they are supposed to do in the game (or just points cost), and not how much raw material they require.

-GrimTeef-
Proud mod of The-Waaagh forum and Vice-President of the Brian Nelson is a Sculpting God Club 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

That's not quite true. They're not priced according to how well they do in the game, but rather, how many they expect people to buy.

Ogryns, for example, are priced at something like $25 US and are awful.

The thing is, you only ever need 3 wraithlords in your army. You could run 9 warwalkers. Or 3 in one slot.

Odds are, the cost to sculpt both models was about the same. And the cost of the molds would also be similar. So, the question is, how many do they need to sell to recoup those two fixed costs? It's really pretty simple economics. If they invest in the new molds and sculpts, they want to devote so much per model to recouping those investments. If they expect to sell three-times more war-walkers than wraithlords, the recoup-per-model doesn't have to be as much. And, I reckon that calculation also takes into account how many people already have their 3 wraithlords (most eldar players), compared to how many have any warwalkers (not quite so many).

   
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Araqiel






Redbeard hit the nail on the head. I fully expect this thread to now dissolve into whining.
   
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Whelp




Atlanta, GA

Redbeard's got the crux of it.

The cost to make the unit really only has so much on the price, but we all know that plastics cost significantly more to make than metals.  Although perhaps the overall cost is a little cheaper since GW went to their new plastics creation methods.  This is why when models go to plastic, you don't always see much savings, if any at all.

For all units GW sells, they have market research (and tarot readings) to guess at how many units will sell at each price point based on game stats, past sales, etc.  They find the match between the price point and the number of units expected to sell which brings in optimum profit. 

It is this same sort of market research which GW uses to raise prices from time to time.  They see that if they raise the cost of something by 10 bucks, 5% less of the unit will be sold, but the 95% that sell at the higher price will bring in far more money.
   
Made in gb
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The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

cmon dont talk economics, anybody who has ever worked for GW knows the price of the plastic kits and trust me they dont cost nothing to nmake. as for the moulds GW pays its staff rubbish money anyway so where do they need to recoup the money they spent? Nowhere its just about the profit margin and about which items will sell less quantities but still be needed in an army, How many eldar armies dont include at least 2 wraithlords? O see more wraithlord usually then warwalkers. Unless you count the odd gamer that maxes out on warwalkers and starcannons.

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Regular Dakkanaut




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Need anyone say more

   
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Been Around the Block




Posted By beef on 11/15/2006 7:23 AM
cmon dont talk economics, anybody who has ever worked for GW knows the price of the plastic kits and trust me they dont cost nothing to nmake. as for the moulds GW pays its staff rubbish money anyway so where do they need to recoup the money they spent? Nowhere its just about the profit margin and about which items will sell less quantities but still be needed in an army, How many eldar armies dont include at least 2 wraithlords? O see more wraithlord usually then warwalkers. Unless you count the odd gamer that maxes out on warwalkers and starcannons.



If you walk into a hobby shop, you'll see that the high end tank and plane kits cost anywhere from 35-60 dollars, about the same as a Leman Russ.

GW's number one expense is store overhead. Rent for stores, salary, benefits and all that add up.

I've seen a study that shows that the profit off a land raider is about 4-6 dollars. Even if it is more, I can tell you that they aren't making a gazillion dollars. People think that GW stores are like grocery stores where people are constantly going in and out picking stuff up. They aren't.

 

   
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Sslimey Sslyth




You know, it is true that in virtually every business, personnel costs are the largest expense of a company.

This makes me wonder why GW ever started or keeps up their GW stores. Privateer Press seems to be doing just fine with the old model of simply producing a product and marketting it to local/regional hobby stores and letting them sell the product to the public. I'm willing to bet that without the huge overhead of all the GW Stores and their respective staffs, GW could cut prices and still realize an increase in profitabillity.

Granted, part of me wants to trust that the upper management of GW is savvy enough to do what is in the best interest of the company, but I have a hard time believing this when we continually hear about loss of market share and revenue, while other minature game companies are experiencing the exact opposite.

Unfortunately, I have no crystal ball and can only make conjecture about pricing strategy. At this point, I only worry that GW is slowly in the process of pricing themselves out of the range of the average gamer and forcing business to go elsewhere with its entertainment dollar.

Sal.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Canada

Posted By beef on 11/15/2006 7:23 AM
cmon dont talk economics, anybody who has ever worked for GW knows the price of the plastic kits and trust me they dont cost nothing to nmake. as for the moulds GW pays its staff rubbish money anyway so where do they need to recoup the money they spent? Nowhere its just about the profit margin and about which items will sell less quantities but still be needed in an army, How many eldar armies dont include at least 2 wraithlords? O see more wraithlord usually then warwalkers. Unless you count the odd gamer that maxes out on warwalkers and starcannons.

A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make.  Do you actually think a cost like that is tough to payoff in the short-term, let-alone the long term?  According to reports the Land Raider kit paid for itself after the first day of sales.  Obviously that's a pretty extreme case, but even the least purchased kit is going to be paid off after the first year.  A 100k mould would hardly fall into the realm of a long term liability in financial terms. 

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Regular Dakkanaut




Posted By Drake_Marcus on 11/15/2006 9:09 AM
...

A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make.

Isn't that about what it costs for each sprue on the mold, which is why kits with three or four sprues cost so much to make? At least that's how I had always understood it.

Anyway, 40k is still a cheaper hobby than golf. Or photography. Or oil painting. Or a whole lot of other options...
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

it always makes me smile when i hear reports of "one study i saw says"  and "reports state" since they have the same credibility as a gradeschool rumor.  let's face it, the only thing we can testify to is what we experience ourselves.  the exception would be if someone was a high ranking stockholder or exec at GW who might be privvy to those types of information and i don't recall anyone with that kind of a resume ever posting on any board.  

imho, and that's all it is, the reason the wraithlord is more expensive is because of demand.  i frequently used to see 2 wraithlords in eldar armies; judging from posts i've seen, that won't change even with the new rules.  gw can charge what they want because people will buy them to get the ingame benefits.  warwalkers, on the other hand, are few and far between on the tabletops of the chicagoland gaming scene.  they have to be discounted to encourage demand. 


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A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make.  Do you actually think a cost like that is tough to payoff in the short-term, let-alone the long term?  According to reports the Land Raider kit paid for itself after the first day of sales.  Obviously that's a pretty extreme case, but even the least purchased kit is going to be paid off after the first year.  A 100k mould would hardly fall into the realm of a long term liability in financial terms. 


It was my understanding a mold cost a million bucks, and you'd need several to keep up with demand.
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Webway

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 11/15/2006 9:09 AM

A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make.  Do you actually think a cost like that is tough to payoff in the short-term, let-alone the long term?  According to reports the Land Raider kit paid for itself after the first day of sales.  Obviously that's a pretty extreme case, but even the least purchased kit is going to be paid off after the first year.  A 100k mould would hardly fall into the realm of a long term liability in financial terms. 

I'd like to destroy this everlasting urban legend: plastic moulds DO NOT cost £100'000 to make, not even a fraction thereof.

How could have other plastic kit manufacturers - from old Revel, Heller, scale trains manufacturers, toy brands, you name them, to current japanese mecha kits - live for so long with so little sales and production runs if any mould was costing them a bloody hundred thousand pounds, for God's sake?!! Do you think that Noch would create a scenery kit like this one if they had to sell as many as GW's Land Raiders to recoup their cost?

The fact that GW has long thrown the rumor of such a price for a single mould (which might even be true for them with their bloated management structure, who knows) doesn't means it's true. Or true for everyone.


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Sslimey Sslyth




Hrm, good point, Kotrin. I hadn't thought about that.

I remember a model by Tamiya that I build of an old German Marder mobile artillery piece. I know for a fact that it had five sprues with over 160 pieces. The model sold for about $35.00 American. If the moulds cost as much as listed above, I can't imagine them ever turning a profit. I mean, how many people actually buy that type of model, compared to models used in miniature games?

Sal.
   
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Sslimey Sslyth




Oh, and Warboss, the "reports" that I mentioned were the stockholder reports that GW releases on a quarterly basis, since they are a publicly traded company. If I remember correctly, one of the Dakka posters regularly provides a link to that report when it is released on the internet.

Check the link below to see GW's investor relations page.  You can see links where their Total Revenue, Operating Profit, Pre-Tax Profit, and Earnings per Share are all down over last year.  They also have a link to the Chairman's address to the stockholders where he attempts to explain what has caused this slide and to try to show what the company has done to reverse the trend.  Unfortunately, I do not believe he has come to the right decision as to what has caused the decline...I think they have a flawed business model, right down to the GW stores.  That's just my opinion, though.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/investor_relations/financial_results/Results2006/full_year/default.htm

Sal.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

@saldiven:
i've seen those links and i read them when they pop up but i don't recall any mention about the landraider paying itself off but i could be wrong. I will gladly eat my words if you could find proof in their own publications that GW is gouging us. my skepticism in what i read on any board is due to the fact that 93.4% of rumor statistics are wrong (including this one!)

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Sslimey Sslyth




I cannot comment on that. I wasn't really trying to. What I was trying to point out is that the entire business model of GW seems to be failing. They have their lowest profits in four years and their lowest total revenue in three. This cannot be due to the "economy" at large, because while this is happening to GW, companies like Privateer Press are going through the roof and expanding (probably) beyond their founders' wildest dreams.

I couldn't tell you whether this is due to mismanagement of costs, opening of unprofitable and untenable specialty stores, silly pricing strategies, or just the simple fact that the educated gaming consumer is just plain tired of the shoddy rules and almost complete lack of support for their product provided by GW (might be a combination of all of them). It is a shame to me, I have enjoyed the GW games since about 1988 when I was still in highschool.

Again, I don't know that GW is "gouging" anyone; I do know that their pricing seems to be driving more people away from the game than anything else. Heck, I can honestly say I have spent less than $300 on GW merchandise in the last five years, 'cuz that stuff is just plain too expensive.

Sal.
   
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Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

Posted By supabeast on 11/15/2006 9:58 AM
Posted By Drake_Marcus on 11/15/2006 9:09 AM
...

A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make.

Isn't that about what it costs for each sprue on the mold, which is why kits with three or four sprues cost so much to make? At least that's how I had always understood it.

Multiple sprues can be and are done on a single die (the block of aluminum or other metal that the plastic injection mold is cut into). However, once cut, the things are nearly indestructible if properly taken care of, hence why the longer a plastic kit is in production, the more profitable it becomes. Furthermore, while it may cost 100,000£ for someone off the street to cut a die (along with engineering the kit for said die), over the years GW has, like most other plastic kit makers, instituted a wide range of cost cutting measures which have significantly brought that cost down.

On the other hand, metal spin casting, while relatively cheap for short runs of figures, has high labor costs. From having to regularly remould (the RTV molds last for 100-200 castings I've heard, which isn't a whole lot), to the amount of people required to operate the machines (injected plastic kits are considerably automated, needing only a handful of operators), all add up to significant costs over time. This is ultimately why GW is moving away from metal and into plastics: It's vastly more profitable for them, especially in the long run.

But we most certainly do not see those cost reductions. Someone compared GW's kits to high end scale models earlier: When I buy one of those kits for $35-60, they come with more sprues with vastly more parts, all which have finer, crisper detail than GW's chunky ham-fisted kits. Even the low end mfgrs (Italeri for example) offer this, for $20-$35, which is considerably cheaper while the kits are much better and often bigger than the GW counterpart. These companies also often have catalogs with thousands of current production plastic kits (and, often, just as many that are out of production, Tamiya, I'm looking at you).

The point of all this, is GW makes enormous amounts of profit off their kits. Or at least did, as it's what has been keeping them afloat (that and loans...) as their sales volume plummets due to a raft of crappy business decisions the board of executives have made over the past several years (and seem to be hell bent on continuing to make). Continued price hikes are but only one of these bad decisions. And with the lowering of sales volume means that each unit is taking on more operating expenses (ie: high personnel costs) than ever before, but instead of trying to find out why sales volume is in the toilet and doing anything about it, GW prefers to raise prices, again.

Lastly, GW long ago dropped any pretense of pricing by weight or cost and have long moved to price by use. Hence why a Wraithlord is much more expensive than a War Walker, despite both being about the same size and having about the same number of parts and options. Likewise, metal command figures are outrageously priced when compared to single metal troop figures (with the former sometimes costing three to five times as much as an equivalent trooper). And they're making profits off of both (note: there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING that GW sells that they do NOT make a significant profit off of).

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Drew_Riggio




Vancouver, British Columbia.

Oh god. Not the goddamn moulds discussion again.

The cost of a mould depends on a number of things. How big it is determines how much steel is required, and the brick of steel is perhaps the largest single cost. Complexity is a factor- a two part mould is cheaper than a four part mould with inserts. Longevity is another issue. Not only does the mould material deteremine how long it will last, but also better mould designers and machinists know how to organize the mould so that it wears slower. Level of detail is obviously a concern, as higher details generally require higher injection pressures and more heat. Surface finish is important- is a run through the CNC mill sufficient, or do you need a few days in the ESD machine as well? And finally, what material you plan to put in the mould is a major factor, as some plastics require higher temperatures and pressures than others.

In previous jobs I've had moulds made, and I've been to China to see them in production. Those moulds were about the same size as GW sprues, had less detail but good surface finish, had inserts, were for lower production runs than GW, and were for ABS plastic. They cost about $30,000 US. What does that tell me about GW's moulds? Approximately squat. The point is that comparing one mould to another is difficult, so unless you have a direct quote from a model manufacturer as to what their mould cost and what its intended life was, you probably shouldn't put much faith in any estimate.
   
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RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

Anyway, 40k is still a cheaper hobby than golf. Or photography. Or oil painting. Or a whole lot of other options...

Or recreational cosmetic surgery.  Or Russian space flights.  Or hunting poor people in New Orleans with Lance Henriksen and Arnold Vosloo...
   
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Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/16/2006 5:19 PM
 and Arnold Vosloo...
Or his lower priced American equivalent, Billy Zane.


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Fresh-Faced New User




Okay I know that this all boils down to the fact that GW is releasing new stuff that you think you need to have to play so that you can stay "hip" cause you have all this new stuff... well guess what the old stuff still works just fine. So hears the deal... quit *female dog*ing about how GW does the pricing and go out and buy that fancy new plastic kit.

And yes I do plan on updating my eldar army with the new kits because my eldar army is rather old and is painted like crap... do you hear me *female dog*ing about pricing... hell no... so suck it up.
   
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Drew_Riggio




Vancouver, British Columbia.

Posted By zero on 11/17/2006 8:25 AM
Okay I know that this all boils down to the fact that GW is releasing new stuff that you think you need to have to play so that you can stay "hip" cause you have all this new stuff... well guess what the old stuff still works just fine. So hears the deal... quit *female dog*ing about how GW does the pricing and go out and buy that fancy new plastic kit.

And yes I do plan on updating my eldar army with the new kits because my eldar army is rather old and is painted like crap... do you hear me *female dog*ing about pricing... hell no... so suck it up.

Far be it for me to steer the subject away from your favorite subject, yourself, but I feel that you may have missed something. That something is the point. I'll explain it using lots of uncommon words because I know you like the smug, superior feeling that you get from reading long sentences with big words in them.

Foreign as the idea may to you, many of us have less than ambivalent feelings towards GW's pricing policy of forced sodomy. As you already aware, GW is charging $50 for about $1 of packaging and plastic- many of us have a problem with this simple pricing model as our knowledge of the obscene disparity between retail and raw costs makes us feel like a pack of goddamn suckers for making purchases. Apparently, you do not receive this sensation, or perhaps you do but simply don't find it uncomfortable. Perhaps you regard the thought of being scammed as some sort of primal rush, and somehow you are addicted to the illicit high of deliberately being a consumer moron (if this is the case, I suggest slot machines). Regardless, I'm not one to judge your hobbies, and this is not one of the the deeper issues anyway. Here's one of them: GW's exorbitant price point means that many posters, many of them GW veterans, cannot indulge their desires sufficiently to make the venture worth attempting at the outset; they have been effectively priced out of the game. Here's another facet you didn't consider: higher prices discourage purchases, leading to a smaller gaming population and a reduced local gaming population, leading to increased difficulty in organizing matches. Furthermore, higher prices affect the purchaser demographic, discouraging the mid teens to mid twenties market (those without either indulgent parents or a stable, well-paying job). This, combined with GW's marketing directed towards a younger audience and their poor ruleset and mediocre support alienating the veteran gamer means that higher prices have effectively aided the shift of GW gaming towards the pre-teen and early-teen audience- an undesirable sea change from the perspective of the gaming community. Finally, GW's accelerated pricing policy is regarded by many to be one of the most significant contributing factors to GW corporate’s poor financial performance over the last couple of years (alongside decreasing support through studio staff cutbacks, insufficient attention to balance in the rulesets, and misinterpreting the reliability of the Lord of the Rings system in terms of profitability).

We are not complaining because we simply hate spending money. We are complaining because higher prices effectively devalue all previous investment in GW products, regardless of our personal spending habits. I don't know if you're an intelligent person who simply didn't bother thinking before you decided to air your personal grievances or if you're simply a garden-variety idiot, but I'm pretty sure that a couple of Ex-Lax gel tabs might help to dislodge your head.



   
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Posted By Triggerbaby on 11/17/2006 11:38 AM

Foreign as the idea may to you, many of us have less than ambivalent feelings towards GW's pricing policy of forced sodomy. As you already aware, GW is charging $50 for about $1 of packaging and plastic- many of us have a problem with this simple pricing model as our knowledge of the obscene disparity between retail and raw costs makes us feel like a pack of goddamn suckers for making purchases.



Do you feel the same way about movies? Books? Video games? Programs? Anything besides basic commodities? 

Really, this is basic business practice. Your cost of raw materials is often a trival part of the cost of a product or service.  If they priced it at small margin to their physical cost of busienss GW would have to close their doors that same day.

Whats your beef with them specifically? If their pricing is too high for the market then their sales will decline and they will either lower prices or go out of business. If its not too high they will make money.  Your false analogy implies some sort of "fair" pricing which only works in command economies.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Drew_Riggio




Vancouver, British Columbia.

Whats your beef with them specifically? If their pricing is too high for the market then their sales will decline and they will either lower prices or go out of business. If its not too high they will make money.  Your false analogy implies some sort of "fair" pricing which only works in command economies.



I made a post some time ago* that explained my specific beef with the prices. I'll post the relevant passages here in case you missed it:

...this is not one of the the deeper issues anyway. Here's one of them: GW's exorbitant price point means that many posters, many of them GW veterans, cannot indulge their desires sufficiently to make the venture worth attempting at the outset; they have been effectively priced out of the game. Here's another facet you didn't consider: higher prices discourage purchases, leading to a smaller gaming population and a reduced local gaming population, leading to increased difficulty in organizing matches. Furthermore, higher prices affect the purchaser demographic, discouraging the mid teens to mid twenties market (those without either indulgent parents or a stable, well-paying job). This, combined with GW's marketing directed towards a younger audience and their poor ruleset and mediocre support alienating the veteran gamer means that higher prices have effectively aided the shift of GW gaming towards the pre-teen and early-teen audience- an undesirable sea change from the perspective of the gaming community. Finally, GW's accelerated pricing policy is regarded by many to be one of the most significant contributing factors to GW corporate’s poor financial performance over the last couple of years (alongside decreasing support through studio staff cutbacks, insufficient attention to balance in the rulesets, and misinterpreting the reliability of the Lord of the Rings system in terms of profitability).

We are not complaining because we simply hate spending money. We are complaining because higher prices effectively devalue all previous investment in GW products, regardless of our personal spending habits.

*Less than an hour ago, on this forum, and you replied to it.

   
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Your argument, if correct, is the working of the effective working of the market.  Sales will fall.  If margins do not correspondingly approve (the Mercedes effect) then this will negatively impact the Company. If possible they will then reduce prices.  If not they go under. 

But the theory that pricing should in any way be related to actual commodity prices is misplaced.  

 

 


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Do you feel the same way about movies? Books? Video games? Programs? Anything besides basic commodities?


Myself? Yes.

I dont bother going to the movies anymore, except on rare occassions, or unless the little one HAS to see a movie. Its cheaper to wait for it to come out on DVD and buy it or better yet, rent it, than it is to go with my wife to the movies. Too many arent worth going to see nowadays. And thats not taking into consideration concession stand pricing.

Same with video games. New ones arent really worth the price. Wait a year or 2 and you can get them for $20 or less. Or buy it used later on.


Too many things arent worth the asking price. GW's just tops the list of crazy pricing.

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
 
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