Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK, so as I hover on the verge of death by tiredness, here's a list that struck me as surprising but workable: durable, high-threat Guard infantry.

Crazy?  Read on.  This is purely thought at the moment -- I'm barely on my way to assembling a small Guard 500 pointer (see earlier topic), but this list should make for fun theoryhammer, as you all call it.  I think this many well protected heavy and special weapons could wreak havoc, and the small countercharge could deal with what makes it through the barrage.  Sharpshooters helps combat the Guard's inaccuracy, and is especially good the more squads take it -- more possibilities of ones to re-roll.  It improves those massed lascannon and missile barrages spectacularly...

THE 557th Iskanda Legion

Heavy Weapons Squads
Carapace Armor
Rough Riders
Iron Discipline
Sharpshooters

HQ: (125)
HQ (125)
Heroic Officer (70) – Iron Discipline (5), Laspistol (-), CCW (-).
4 Guardsmen, Mortar (10), MasterVox (25), Carapace Armor (20)

ELITES (415)
Hardened Veterans Squad: 10 Veterans (80), 3x Plasmaguns (30), Vox-Caster (5), Carapace Armor (20)

Hardened Veterans Squad: 10 Veterans (80), 3x Plasmaguns (30), Vox-Caster (5), Carapace Armor (20)

Hardened Veterans Squad: 10 Veterans (80), 3x Meltaguns (30), Vox-Caster (5), Carapace Armor (20), Sharpshooters (10)

TROOPS (790)

Line Infantry Platoon (395)
Lt. Kalimxe, lasgun, Iron Discipline (5). Command Squad w/Mortar, Carapace Armor (20). (75)
Signax Squad (60): Lascannon (20), Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)
Ordix Squad (60): Lascannon (20), Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)
Crucix Squad (60): Heavy Bolter (20), Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)

Line Infantry Platoon (395)
Lt. Moriss, lasgun, Iron Discipline (5). Command Squad w/Mortar, Carapace Armor (20). (50)
Solaris Squad (60): Lascannon (20), Grenade Launcher (8) Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)
Mortis Squad (60): Lascannon (20), Grenade Launcher (8) Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)
Bensis Squad (60): Heavy Bolter (10), Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)

FAST ATTACK (204)

Rough Rider Squad: 6 Rough Riders with Hunting Lances, led by Veteran Sergeant with Hunting Lance, Plasma Pistol (102)

Rough Rider Squad: 6 Rough Riders with Hunting Lances, led by Veteran Sergeant with Hunting Lance, Plasma Pistol (102)

HEAVY SUPPORT (310)

SUPPORT PLATOON (310)
Lt. Moriss, lasgun, Iron Discipline (5). Command Squad w/Mortar, Carapace Armor (20). (50)
Anti-Tank Squad (35): x3 Missile Launcher (60), Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)
Fire Support Squad (35): x3 Heavy Bolters (45), Sharpshooters (10), Carapace Armor (20)

TOTAL: 1844

Rip it to pieces, O more more experienced Dakka-ites...if possible.

-Adso

The Sharpshooters can't be worth it. No, really... 80pts. I'd rather go for a basilisk with those (and some extra) points. Veteran squads seem too large to really be worth it, especially if they're deep striking. If you'd drop the sharpshooters doctrine, you'd get drop troops in exchange.

I think this amount of 4+ save will seldom be worth it, but could work out against some opponents very well. The main problem with the list in my opinion is that you have very few special weapons and very low mobility. Your line squads will be spending some time moving, since they're the only ones who can. They however don't have special weapons to pack some punch while moving, which will lead to ... well, lasguns firing. You know. Massacred guardsmen & laughing marines.

Btw. You haven't marked the carapace upgrade on the pony-girl squads, though obviously you've paid the points for it.

Now, off to work, hope someone else drops something more helpful

Carapace armour is strictly bad, because there are weapons called heavy bolters in Warhammer 40000. Assuming you are bent on using it, however:

Squirreli is 100% correct about Sharpshooters. Not worth it except on Fire Support Squads, where it's actually not bad - you'll probably get enough 1s shooting three heavy bolters for it to be worth the ten points.

Make the RR squads bigger and/or cut one of them. Two points for 4+ save is barely worth it. Those plasma pistols I think might also be too many points for such small squads.

Unless you play with a bunch of cheaters, Master Vox does not require Vox Network according to the Rules As Written. This gives you the points to make your missile launchers into lascannon.

Plasma guns in the infantry. Don't ever play with grenade launchers unless almost no-one you play uses marines. You MIGHT want to put lascannon in the veterans, but I guess you do only want to give a squad with T3 so many more upgrades than a cheaper and equally durable squad.


"The main problem with the list in my opinion is that you have very few special weapons and very low mobility. Your line squads will be spending some time moving, since they're the only ones who can. They however don't have special weapons to pack some punch while moving, which will lead to ... well, lasguns firing. You know. Massacred guardsmen & laughing marines."

Generally Imperial Guard players get around this dilemma by not moving their infantry. IG Infantry are 60 points for eight ablative wounds to the lascannon and plasma gun.Horsies and tanks are for moving.

I see Carapace Armour, Voxes, and 10-man H-Vet units with illegal Doctrines.

This list needs to be redone completely. Lose the bloat. You've spent 430 points on Sharpshooters, Carapace Armour and Vox Casters. 120 points on H-Vet ablative wounds. 30 points on Mortars. 5 points more than you needed to on that HSO (take a JO w/Honorifica). 20 points on Rough Rider Plasma Pistols.

All this equals 615 points on pure bloat, or a whopping 33% of your army. That's a few points shy of two 35-man Las/Plas Platoons. For half the points you spent on Carapace Armour you can take Cameleoline, something that will increase your cover save to 4+, or in a some terrain 3+, which is better than having your 4+ armour ignored by AP4 and above weapons. Carapace Armour attempts to plug a weakness in the Guard (bad armour) by throwing lots of points at it. Cameleoline strengthens something the Guard already do well (hide in cover) and makes them tougher for less points than Carapace Armour.

You've taken Grenade Launchers matched with Lascannons! There's no Standard Bearer. You've taken Missile Launchers in an AT squad (why bother?). BS4 models cannot have Sharpshooters either. And Sharpshooters is a complete waste on Infantry. 10 points is not worth it to re-roll the odd Lasgun shot. You're better off with Light Infantry. This list needs to be reworked considerably.

BYE

Pure bloat? Illegal doctrines....my. I suppose I'm just totally off mark making use of any doctrines other than drop troops, close order drill, iron discipline, and veterans? Is carapace really totally useless? Sure, HB and Shuriken Cannon are still scary, but bolters, necrons, shuricats, etc are no longer instant doom for my troops. Also, 4+ saves would make me take longer to kill off in assault, giving a countercharge unit more time to arrive, wouldn't it?

You're right about the BS4 models with sharpshooters...but the other ones? I have lascannons covered in my infantry squads, and being able to take 3 anti tank shots (re rolling ones) OR three blast templates is a good bit of adaptability. The GLs are there because I can re-roll ones with them, which I cannot with PGs. Why are the Mortars and Vox Casters bloat?

While I agree Camelioline is nice, is it really so much better than Carapace for the cost that no one should ever bother with carapace?

-Adso

I find it sad that people constantly talk about needing to beat marines and then come right back and say that you need to worry about heavy bolters. Who takes heavy bolters in any kind of quanitiy since the Las/plas is much more efficent? So what if the odd army has a couple of heavy bolters, they are not going to make that big of a difference in small quantities anyway.

I like the army. I do not have my book here so I cannot comment on what is legal. Still, the motars are a good idea for the command attachments since this will allow them to have some firepower while not being easy targets for return fire. Carapace armor is fine, you will find most opponents use their small arms fire to deal with hordes and leave the heavy/assualt weapons to tanks and heavy infantry. This means you will have your saves against the opponent's mass shots and, do you really care that a guy was whacked by a lascannon?

The thing to watch out for is if you play in a group that will taylor lists depending on who they are facing. This list is VERY vulnerable to AP4 weapons. Heavy bolters and Whirlwinds in mass quantities will cause you endless grief. So, this is a good tourny list because people will be focused more on MEQ killing, but a person can easily taylor a list to beat this.

Note, I would move the grenade launchers to the heavy bolter squads and and plasma to the lascannon squads with whatever points are left.

Good luck if you do build this

The Wraith

Yes. It is.

I hate having to repeat myself, but as I have already said:

Carapace Armour attempts to plug a weakness in the Guard (their terrible armour save) by throwing points at the problem. Throwing points at a weakness doesn't negate the weakness, all it does is make you more expensive when you die. You should be putting points towards your strengths, not your weaknesses.

As it happens, due to the aforementioned terrible armour save, Guardsmen tend to spend a lot of time hiding in cover. This is simply because most things ignore their armour saves, so the cover save allows them to stay alive. You say that with Carapace things like Bolters and Gauss Rifles won't be a problem. If you're in the standard 4+ Cover Save that the 4th Ed 40K rules give (or hell, even 5+ will do), then you're already protected. This is a strength, and for fully half the points you've spent on Carapace Armour you can strengthen this... uhh... strength, with an addition to cover save.

Then there's the other very important question to consider:

What is more important - More men, or tougher men?

You've spent an incredible 300 points on Carapace Armour. That's 50 more men you could have, or being more realistic, 35-40 depending on weapons. Halve that to 150 on Cameleoline, and you've still got enough for 2 full squads + weapons - and they'll be tougher than the men in Carapace as they'll be taking improved Cover Saves - something you should already be in.

And as far as lasting longer in assault? You last longer in assault by taking more men! What lasts longer? 40 men with 4+ saves or 80 men with 5+ saves. The 80 men also put out more attacks. That and Rough Riders are so fast you won't have to wait long for them to arrive.


Next, the quip about Drop Troops and CoD. You'll notice I did not suggest them. However, as you've brought it up, let me remind you about why people take them - they're free, and they give easily tangible benefits for no loss. You want your Infantry to last longer in HTH? Make them I4 with CoD and they won't all be dead before swinging. You want the H-Vets to serve a purpose with their ultra-short ranged Meltaguns? You take Drop Troops.

Sharpshooters is junk. There are no two ways about it. It's useful on Fire Support Squads w/Heavy Bolters. It is not useful on a bunch of men armed with Lasguns. If you must spend 10 points on every squad, take Light Infantry. With that you can deploy after your opponent has finished, giving you an enormous strategic advantage.

Next, Grenade Launchers. Taking them because you cal re-roll 1's is a bad reason to take them. Truthfully no weapon matches with the Lascannon in any coherent way. The Melta-gun has the power, but lacks the range. The plasma gun has the AP, but lacks the anti-vehicle power. The Grenade Launcher is a terribly useless weapon that does lots of things but none of them well. And the Flamer? Well, I shouldn't have to tell you why it doesn't go with the Lascannon.

So, you take the best you can get, the Plasma Gun, simply because they've got the same AP, and enough S to tackle heavy infantry like Terminators. Sure, the Plasma will never be able to target the AV13 and AV14 vehicles the Lascannon will be gunning for, but it's better than taking a gun that will sit out of range for the whole game despite its power, or kills infantry with a template, or does nothing well at all and is a complete waste of 8 points when the Plasma is only 2 points more.

Next, the Missile Launcher AT squad. You're making the classic mistake of believing that because something can fire two different types of shots it is therefore 'versitile' and 'useful'. No, all the ML does is make the unit confused. Each unit has 6 turns to make their mark on the game, and if they can't decide between a blast marker that is weaker than a Heavy Bolter, or a single shot that is weaker than a Lascannon, then the unit is wasted. Furthermore, you're playing Guard for Emperor's sake. You don't need 'adaptable' weapons. You live and die by your infantry and the oodles of Heavy Weapons they bring to the table. You can afford to specialise, and in fact pretty much every unit you have should be doing one thing and one thing only. ML's (and GL's) run contrary to this.

Mortars are bloat because they can't kill anything. Small blast marker + D6" scatter + 4th Ed blast marker rules requiring the centre dot be placed over a model + S4 AP6 = misses most of the time and when it does it hits worse than a Bolter. It is 10 points better spent elsewhere.

Voxes are the worst kind of bloat, worse than even Carapace Armour. Carapace Armour atleast does something - improves your armour save. Vox Casters don't actually do anything useful because Guard can get Leadership boosts for free just by using their Officers' Leadership rules. You don't need to pay points in each squad to use your CHQ's Ld9 - all you have to do is keep a model within a fraction of an inch to the Officer. Throw in an 11 point Standard Bearer and now you can re-roll that Ld9. Why spend 40 points on something you get for free anyway?

And before you say "But the H-Vets might be away from the Officers" let me say two things:

1. How are they going to be away from the Officers? They can't Deep Strike, and they have no transports. Infiltrating them just means it will be easier for your opponent to get to them and kill them in HTH.
2. If they are suicide units, who cares if they break and run? If their kill an expensive tank and are obliterated next turn, what does it matter if they had a Vox Caster?

Your list is definately going in the right direction - you have the strong beginings of an All Infantry list - you just have 615 wasted points that could go from turning this list from an actual All Infantry list, one with more than 6 squads.

BYE

Most Marine players are having love affairs with their assualt cannons right now. Until that changes, expect a unit of termies, and a speeder or two with two assault cannons per termie squad; and a hv bolter and assualt cannon per speeder.

AP4 weaponry is common as dirt.

The other common weapons for marines are heavy flamers on dreadnoughts and meltaspeeders.

Most of the time your infantry will only be getting cover saves, so why spend points on something you can't use. Particularly since most people invest in anti MEQ weaponry... weapons that can kill a MEQ squad in one turn can do the same to IG. IG's best response is to have two or three times the numbers of the enemy...

Which is why conscripts are so good. Keep an officer with a flag with in 12 inchs, and those conscripts are a great meat shield. Charge them into a demon prince, sit back and eat some popcorn, waiting several turns to see if the prince can kill enough before the game ends...

Sigh. I guess you're all right. There is no viability to a Guard list that tries to be anything other than a meatherd or a rumbling mass of treaded doom....so I'll give up on this whole carapace armor thing and go the other direction.

How does this look for a simple 'balanced' list? I'm still thinking about how to construct the light, chamelioline all infantry army.

HQ: (55)
HQ (55)
Junior Officer (40) ? Iron Discipline (5), Laspistol (-), CCW (-).
4 Guardsmen, one Heavy Bolter team (10)

TROOPS (652)
Line Infantry Platoon (235)
Lt. Kalimxe, lasgun, Iron Discipline (5). Command Squad w/Heavy Bolter. (50)
Blue Squad: Lascannon (20), Plasma Gun (10) (90)
Blue Squad: Lascannon (20), Plasma Gun (10) (90)

Special Infantry Platoon (225)
Lt. Ezzron, shotgun, Iron Discipline (5). Command Squad w/Light Infantry. (50)
Alpha Squad: Sniper rifle, plasma gun, sgt with shotgun, light infantry. (85)
Beta Squad: Sniper Rifle, plasma gun, sgt. with shotgun, light infantry. (85)

Line Infantry Support (171)
Black Squad: 10 Guardsmen (60), Meltagun (10), Vet Sgt. (6)
Black-Alpha: Chimera w/Multilaser (80) with Tack Guards (10), Hull HB (5)

HEAVY SUPPORT (290)
Black-1: Leman Russ w/Hull HB, HB Sponsons (155)
Black-2: Leman Russ w/Hull HB, HB Sponsons (155)

I have to say that I really love reading H.B.M.C.'s post on IG lists, talk about knowing an army and being ruthlessly efficient.

Since you've pretty much given up on the Carapace armor what I'm going to say isn't all that useful other than to re-emphasize a point.

Having a 4+ save is largely useless in an IG army. Reason being that nearly every army out there has "good stuff" that will be in any competitive list you'll face, and the vast majority of it will be AP4.

Marines: Assault Cannons (and the Heavy Bolters that come on their Speeders and on Predator Side sponsons), Heavy Flamers on Drop Podding Dreads
Chaos: Tank Hunting Havoc Squads w/ Autocannons, Oblits morphing Heavy Bolters.
IG: Hellhounds, Heavy Bolters & Autocannons
Tau: Missile Pods, Railhead Submunition Round
Necrons: Immortals & Destroyers
Eldar & Dark Eldar: This is about the only area I can think where CA might be useful because they have only a few pieces of AP4 guns that are largely ignored, they either have High Strength AP5 multishot guns or Marine Killers.
WH: They Like Heavy Flamers & Heavy Bolters
Demonhunters: Any GK special weapon will be AP4

Seriously, for IG the 4+ save is a waste. Like HBMC said, go for more bodies instead of better ones. With more Bodies comes more targets than they can handle, and more guns you can shoot them with.

In support of the anti-carapace armor argument:

I recently playtested a 1500 IG army, which consisted of my 1200 point list and 300 points of crap that I threw in, most of which was for Carapace. My Tau opponent killed 50% of my troops by turn 3, at which point the game was called because of scheduling conflicts.

It's not worth it. I could have grabbed another two Russes, but chose to make all of my models expensive, so that the Tau ended up with a nice VP margin on me. 5+ save is minimalist, as their armor is really paper mache wrapped around cardboard.

CK

Just a little disclaimer - don't take my or anybody else's comments too personally. IG orthodoxy exists because of the way people tend to play Warhammer 40,000 99% of the time, and that's the way people will give advice to you when you ask about how a list will work. This is a function to which posters like H. and foil play the role of high priest.

If you're in the 1% where some of its tenets don't apply - say you usually play on Jungle boards against lots of Kroot Mercs and infantry heavy Eldar - then a lot of it does sound pretty arbitrary. "Mortars are bad," such a player might exclaim, "why, they always pin that annoying 60-man infiltrating Hound unit!" Even the most typically orthodox environments will sometimes have funny little hiccups, such as extended carapace being mysteriously popular among the Tyranid players for their large monsters. Or Voodoo Boyz example - melta and flamer speeders, although they are strictly sh!te, were the 2nd edition default armanent so I suppose he has some older players who still like the vintage sculpts. Or maybe a pack of fluff bunnies dominate your environment and have declared some usually standard items beyond the pale.

The thing is, us out here in internet land don't know the particular hiccups of your metagame. All we can do is point away from things that GENERALLY 99% of the time DON'T make sense. There can even be some occasions when a strictly bad weapon or unit can be absolutely key - i.e. say you're playing a tourney where you know there are only a few other experienced players. You are confident your basic squads should be able to handle the power armour the scrubs will be fielding, so you blow 200 or so points on mortar squads because you've seen some of the good players showing off freshly painted Raiders.

At least two posters on dakka have had success using just assault weapons in their infantry with GK or Sentinels for the heavy firepower - but it's easy to conjecture they don't have to play the obnoxious 11 year olds with optimized or illegal GEQ killer lists who are perhaps the best practical enforcers of orthodoxy - the guy with the orthodox netlist absent-mindedly murders them while mentally reviewing the groceries he has to buy on the way home from the store, while the guy sincerely trying to break out of the orthodoxy loses ignominously. If good IG lists are static and boring, it's just another symptom of the MEQ-based, Elf-exploiting system we all love and hate - if you wanted to play a different style of game, there's FOW, Hordes, War Machine, and a whole bevy of largely non-net homebrew systems, plus lots of defunct games from out-of-business manufacturers who can't enforce who plays with what figures and their rules.

That said:

What are the sniper rifles shooting at? Do people in your area use a lot of Monstrous Creatures? If so, why not have Ratlings? If not, why not get a real heavy weapon?

Why not put a heavy weapon in the Armoured Fist Squad? You realize Chimeras have AV10 flank and rear, are roughly six inches long and only have a back door?

You should post some pictures of your shotgun users - must be a cool conversion to even think about that weapon.

Tanks and platoon one are 100% orthodox.

GL

What Wight Widow said makes a lot of sense, not just for IG but for any army.. just because most people say it should be one way, your gaming group might make things different.

Your best bet is to heed as much of the advice that you wanna, while building the army you wanna, and in the meantime.. get some other army men and proxy everything, play a few demo games and figure out what you like best. My first few games I used a whole mess of eldar figs & marine tanks, cuz that's what I had to spare. Then I posted here and got some advice and as I'm building my army for real I know what to buy and build and what not to.

I play marines a lot so the las/plas squads work well for me. But if I had a lot of nid and eldar opponents I'd prolly go more with flamers and/or heavy bolters and/or autocannons. So yeah, build what suits your style and your group but still keep in mind what the other folks are telling you

I think my first army list had a 275 pt command HQ.. when all I needed was a bare bones unit to hide in a building near the rest of my guys. I am considering a mortar though, since it's not super expensive and they can take some shots without getting in harms way.

I was going with Sharpshooter at first too, seemed good on paper.. but I read that you can't reroll plasma 1's, which is what I really wanted it for. And your plasmas will get hot and kill your guys. Part of the risk.. but when they melt a marine or 2 before they die, it makes it worthwhile.

I take close order drill plus drop troops, but I set up my platoons normally. If I had to play them as reserves, I'd probably drop them in, so I can have more control over where they come, instead of just on the table edge.. because thanks to the heavy weapon I won't want to move them.

I also have tried the vet squad with 3 meltas or 3 plasmas, they're fun but I've only had success with em about half the time. I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should go with support squads to try and get some cheaper guardsmen in there to absorb some wounds and try and get an extra high powered shot off the following turn.

it's all about playing and adapting try a few proxy games and see what really works for you.