Eldrad's Divination: Redeploy with 1" of infiltrating troops?

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**Mezmaron**

Eldrad's Divination skill allows you to redeploy your troops anywhere, as long as they are in your deployment zone. But what if my opponent put his infiltrators in my deployment zone - can I redeploy right next to them for an easy charge?

I can't see why not....

Thanks,

Mez

**djones520**

I thought Divination took place before Infiltraters where placed?

**Mezmaron**

Posted By djones520 on 01/13/2007 4:22 PM
I thought Divination took place before Infiltraters where placed?

Nope - it doesn't say either way.

Mez

**cuda1179**

I'd say that you could redeploy withing one inch. Setting up infiltrators is the responsiblity of the owning player, not the eldar player. So, if his infiltrators are all ready set up appropriatly, they are legally there. And you may then redeploy anywhere in your deployment zone.

**Flagg07**

I agree with the 1" deployment.Gives something for the Infilers to worry about.

**Moopy**

No unit may deploy within 1" of an enemy as it's stated (in the BBB) that no unit may EVER be within 1" unless they're in combat.

**Samwise158**

I have to disagree with all of you. The way I read it, it all depends on the mission's parameters Allow me to drop a few quotes.

Cleanse P. 81
"No unit can be deployed within 18" of the enemy or within 6" of the centre of the table at the start of the game

Seek and Destroy and Recon P. 82-83
"No unit may be deployed within 24" of the enemy or more than 15" from their own long table edge."

Take and Hold and Secure and Control have no limit on how close to the enemy one can deploy except for the Infiltration guidelines.

Deploy Forces P.81
"When deploying, players alternate placing units, and then alternate placing units with the infiltrate special rule. When all units have deployed, any that are entitled to make a move before the game starts will make a move"

Infiltration P. 84
"Infiltrators may set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from an enemy unit, if no deployed enemy unit can draw a line of sight to them. Alternately, they may set up anywhere on the table that is more than 18" from an enemy unit, even if they can be seen."

"Any Infiltrators deployed on the table at the start of the game are deployed after all other units."

Divination P. 51 eldar Codex "After both sides have deployed at the start of the game, the eldar player may reposition D3+1 units in his army. No unit may be moved out of its deployment zone."

By my reading of the above quotes, infiltration is part of the deployment process, and the rules for infiltrators override the limits on setting up units outside your deployment zone. Divination is an add-on to the end of the phase that allows the Eldar player to reposition D3+1 units after deployment is complete. But if the mission prohibits units from deploying within a certain distance of the enemy (as does Cleanse, Seek and Destroy and Recon) then their legal deployment space would be reduced by the infiltrating enemy. In Take and Hold and Secure and Control no such prohibition exists, and so it seems legal to position your unit 1" away from the enemy.

As an additional note, it seems like Divination would occur before the scout move as it interrupts the transition from deployment to movement. Movement, I think, heralds the true beginning of the action.

**Hellfury**

Agreed and very nice post, samwise.

I also agree that divination interupts scout rule, but without a solid rule for when it exactly takes place, I can see a few opponents crying about it.

**The Drop Zone**

Posted By Samwise158 on 01/15/2007 11:36 AM
I have to disagree with all of you. The way I read it, it all depends on the mission's parameters Allow me to drop a few quotes.

Cleanse P. 81
"No unit can be deployed within 18" of the enemy or within 6" of the centre of the table at the start of the game

Seek and Destroy and Recon P. 82-83
"No unit may be deployed within 24" of the enemy or more than 15" from their own long table edge."

Take and Hold and Secure and Control have no limit on how close to the enemy one can deploy except for the Infiltration guidelines.

Deploy Forces P.81
"When deploying, players alternate placing units, and then alternate placing units with the infiltrate special rule. When all units have deployed, any that are entitled to make a move before the game starts will make a move"

Infiltration P. 84
"Infiltrators may set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from an enemy unit, if no deployed enemy unit can draw a line of sight to them. Alternately, they may set up anywhere on the table that is more than 18" from an enemy unit, even if they can be seen."

"Any Infiltrators deployed on the table at the start of the game are deployed after all other units."

Divination P. 51 eldar Codex "After both sides have deployed at the start of the game, the eldar player may reposition D3+1 units in his army. No unit may be moved out of its deployment zone."

By my reading of the above quotes, infiltration is part of the deployment process, and the rules for infiltrators override the limits on setting up units outside your deployment zone. Divination is an add-on to the end of the phase that allows the Eldar player to reposition D3+1 units after deployment is complete. But if the mission prohibits units from deploying within a certain distance of the enemy (as does Cleanse, Seek and Destroy and Recon) then their legal deployment space would be reduced by the infiltrating enemy. In Take and Hold and Secure and Control no such prohibition exists, and so it seems legal to position your unit 1" away from the enemy.

As an additional note, it seems like Divination would occur before the scout move as it interrupts the transition from deployment to movement. Movement, I think, heralds the true beginning of the action.

That is a very good post howevere there is a flaw in it and its not my opinion its gw rules

any new codex trumps the main book.. ie you go with the newest rules in print

so if the eldar codex says and i know it does im using eldrad now,,, that before the games starts i may redeploy d3+1 units ANYWHERE in my deployment zone thus the new rules trumps any and all rule book limitations.. thats gw's own rules for new codex releases

end of statement

**Samwise158**

It doesn't say anywhere in the quote for Divination. Check it if you don't believe my quote. It just says reposition and not outside the deployment zone.

**The Drop Zone**

since my booik is at the store please post the rule direct

doesnt change the fact i can redeploy in my deployment zone just not out of it ...now whats yourdefinition of inside my deployment zone? is there a restriction in the quote saying not if there are infilitrators in it or the scenario doesnt allow it.. of course it doesnt it says i can re deploy in my deployment zone it doesnt specify a restriction thus the word ANYWHERE is where they can redeploy

**Samwise158**

I posted the divination rule as it is written in the codex in my first post. If you read it, it states that no units may be moved out of the deployment zone. Since you are re-deploying the units the following rules from the missions will be in effect.

Cleanse P. 81
"No unit can be deployed within 18" of the enemy or within 6" of the centre of the table at the start of the game

Seek and Destroy and Recon P. 82-83
"No unit may be deployed within 24" of the enemy or more than 15" from their own long table edge."

Since the infiltrators got there first, they have the real estate. The only way I could see to argue against this would be to say that somehow repositioning and deploying are different. But that reeks of the worst kind of rules lawyering.

The other thing to consider is how rare this situation would probably be. I imagine most Eldar players using this device would be willing to use one of the repositionings to prevent the enemy from putting infiltrators in his deployment zone.

**djones520**

You are not redeploying Samwise, your repositioning.

Eldrad looks into the future, and sees what is going to happen, so he orders his forces to set up in regards to that. Makes sense to me that they can be "repositioned" anywhere in the deployment zone that they like.

**Samwise158**

You say tomato I say tomatoe. It could just as easily be argued that where the units have been repositioned is where they have finally been deployed. Its where they start the game. The two words are synonyms according to the American Heritage Dictionary when refering to war. We're getting into semantics here. That's the limit of RAW. Meaning is in the eye of the beholder. If GW released a numbered list for the start of game process that would be great. In the meantime, things need to happen in a certain order. It isn't fair for the Eldar player to dictate that order simply because there is a grey area. I tried to figure it out with quotes, but since there is no point on a timeline labeled "start of game" it will be in the hands of the players to come to an agreeable conclusion.

I agree with Mauleed's idea, that when faced by such a situation it is best to assume the least advantageous solution, rather than to fight tooth and nail for every little piece of advantage that can be sussed from the imperfect wording. If you really wanted to take it apart "After both sides have deployed at the start of the game, the Eldar player may reposition D3+1 units in his army" wouldn't necessarily be a once per game action, and might be possible at any point or any time throughout the game. As long as the game has started and both sides were deployed at some point in time, Eldrad could have Grav Tanks popping up all over his deployment zone.

This would be a twisted arguement because it defies the game's internal logic that events happen in chronological relation to other events. If Eldrad can move his forces around after deployment and the rules do not definitively state that it happens before or after the scout move, then a coin should be flipped. It makes no sense for the Eldar player to do as he pleases because of the imprecise nature of language.

**Flavius Infernus**

The only way I could see to argue against this would be to say that somehow repositioning and deploying are different. But that reeks of the worst kind of rules lawyering.

Guilty as charged.

Repositioning for Divination happens "after both sides have deployed." If it happens after deployment is complete, it can't be part of deployment. (I thought this was part of your original argument, Sam.)

Infiltrators, however, are "deployed," which can only happen during deployment. So that denotes the sequence for those two events (infiltrators first as part of deployment, then Divination repositioning after both players have deployed).

I don't think the rules can be used to determine for sure whether Divination or Scout movement comes first.

**Sazzlefrats**

It also says before the start of the game, roll for first turn, the scount moves and divination moves? Once you roll for first turn you still haven't started the game until you starting taking your first turn the game hasn't started.

Is there anything against this?

**Samwise158**

You're right Flavious, about the Divination coming after deployment. The question is a nature of language. Position and deploy are synonyms. There is no mention of positioning anywhere in the rulebook, only deployment. Do positioned units not have to abide by the deployment rules? There is a deployment phase, but even if a unit is repositioned after that it is still being deployed - i.e. being placed on the table at the "start of the game." My whole point is that it is blurry and you seem to agree with me on this. What I dislike is the notion that since it is not clear how positioning works that the Eldar player has carte blanche to decide when and how the rules will be implemented.

In addition - it explicitly states in the Scout USR that this move happens before you roll to see who goes first. In that case, even if it isn't possible to determine if the scout or divination action happens first, both should occur before the roll to see who goes first. Since the rulebook states that they happen after deployment.

I think we've reached an impasse in this arguement and I don't see the point in arguing it any further. It's just like spinning wheels in mud.

**Flavius Infernus**

Well, one of the basic assumptions used in a literal reading of the rules is that the rules say what they mean and that a term used in a special way in one place has the same special meaning in another place (conservation of meaning) . It may be assuming a kind of precision for the language of the rule that it doesn't necessarily have, but it is part of literal reading.

This assumption is important because it prevents the everyday meanings of words from interfering with precise readings of specialized terms in the rules. For example, Space Marine Scouts don't have the "scouting" rule, even though that rule says that "Scouts" get it. The word "Scout" in one case is the name of a specific unit, wheras the word "Scout" in the scouting rule refers to units that have the "scouting" rule. Without the conservation of meaning assumption, the rules become a mishmash of overlapping words whose meaning can't be determined.

So under this assumption, and in spite of dictionary definitions, the everyday word "position" is different from the specialized term "deploy." If the rules meant "redeploy," we assume that it would have said that, and the use of a different term allows us to conclude that "positioning" is not the same as "deployment."

**Tau-Cent**

Flavius

Your arguement is that is that "repositioning" is different from "redeploying". As such you do not need to follow the limitations on "deploying", or infact any other limits such as on movement.

Then why "reposition" 1" away, why not just in Base to Base with Infiltrators?

Can you "reposition" on top of unit?

Can you "reposition" in impassible terrian?

The point I am trying to make is that there are not clear enough rules defining "reposition". You have chosen to limit "reposition" to with 1" of an enemy unit, an other player might not heed even those limitations.

**Flavius Infernus**

Good point, Tau-cent. Your reply actually sent me to the rhetoric book to look up the name of the fallacy that your argument is built on. I think it's the "affirmation of the consequent."

The fact that the conclusion "deployment <> positioning" creates other problems within the rules does not mean that the conclusion is false. It especially does not mean that the conclusion "deployment = positioning" is true (that's the affirmation of the consequent fallacy, if I'm not mistaken).

I'm just interpreting the rules according to principles of formal logic here. If the rules, as they apparently do, say that you can break deployment rules in repositioning units, then that's not my problem.

**Tau-Cent**

I don't believe I said that based on my argument "deploying" is the same as "positioning". I was trying to state that if "positioning" is considered a unique term as you propose, it lacks definition and potentially breaks the game system.

**Flavius Infernus**

Ah, my bad Tau-Cent. I misinterpreted your list of rhetorical questions as an argument against the "deploy <> position" conclusion.

Yes, "reposition" isn't defined in the rules, so we have to go to the dictionary to find out what it means.

It appears that use of the word "reposition" means that Divination is not subject to any of the restrictions that apply to either deployment or movement.

**Tau-Cent**

No, I question the concept of using "reposition" as a defined turn in the manner that you are proposing. Clearly, doing so can lead to a break down in the gaming system.

I think it is another badly written rule and personally think that divination should follow the restriction of both deployment and placement of figures found throughout the rule book.

**Samwise158**

I agree 100 percent... Tau-Cent.

**Flavius Infernus**

Hmmm, does it make sense why the argument "I think this is a bad rule as written, so we should use a different rule instead" is not a literal reading?

**Tau-Cent**

I think it makes sense to use rules that allow "Divination" to function, be effective, and yet don't break the game system.

**Flavius Infernus**

Does it make sense why the argument "I think this interpretation of the rules makes more sense" is not a literal reading?

**The Drop Zone**

Posted By Tau-Cent on 01/17/2007 1:31 PM
No, I question the concept of using "reposition" as a defined turn in the manner that you are proposing. Clearly, doing so can lead to a break down in the gaming system.

I think it is another badly written rule and personally think that divination should follow the restriction of both deployment and placement of figures found throughout the rule book.

i might agree with you except for one little itsy bity fact you over look

the new eldar codex rules inside of it supercede the rule book.. thus his skill at divination is a new rule and whatever it says is what he can do, and that supercedes any rule previously written

thats not my opinion thats a gw rule

so if he can reposition redeploy move the model 4 feet who cares, the bottom line is he can move them within his deployment zone regardless of whatever the scenario says or if there are infiltrators there.. it does not however say he can move things into base to base so any point of obscuring the discussion ( not saying you are ) is moot on that part

the second part of the argument/ discussion is when this happens

i do believe it says prior to the start of the game...the only thing that occurs immediately prior to the start of the game is the dice roll for first turn.. thus ending any debate for me.. everything else scuttlers scout infiltrate happen prior to the dice roll and eldrad's ability is the last thing that can happen before you start turn 1

i see that as raw and what they had by intent.. why else have the skill of divination only to move your vehicles and then ahve your enemey outthink your future seeing by scout moving away.... thats stupid

**Tau-Cent**

The Drop Zone

You say that because it is a new rule it lets you reposition near infiltrators. The rules for deployment don't matter because this new rule supercedes the rulebook.

Then I say you can reposition in BtoB, in Impassible Terrian on top of other units, none of rules from main book matter, they have been superceded by the new rule that lets you reposition anywhere in your deployment zone.

Right?

If you don't want to follow the rules for deployment, why follow the rules for placement, terrain etc. Have they all not been superceded?

I don't see anything in the Divination rule that lets you only supercede the deployment rules yet still requiring you to conform to all other rules that would prevent you from placing a figure ANYWHERE in your deployment zone.

By your logic if you can supercede one rule, you can supercede them all.

**The Drop Zone**

thats because you cant read obviously ..

the divination power does not allow to him to place models in btob it doesnt say it can... nor it doesnt say it can be placed in impassable terrain or whatevere your trying to obscure the facts with....its a basic principle established by GW a new codex with rules in it supercedes rules in the rule book always has always will

the rule allows him to move his model within his deployment zone thu he can move them near infiltrators within 1" because his rule doenst say he can go base to base it says he can move them within his deployment zone again for those hard headed... it also does not say that the divination rule is subject to the scenario not allowing him to move models... again if ti dont say it you cant do it or in this case i can because the div rule didnt say i couldnt

you that have to read everything into it is exactly why there are rules lawyers and gw had to make incomplete faq's