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By the RAW reading of the rules, if a vehicle squadron (lets say 3 vehicles) are hit by 3 shots, all 3 vehicles must take a hit, even if 1 or more are out of LOS.  As long as one of them are in LOS, all the vehicles are subject to taking hits.

My question is, does anybody actually play it this way?  or do you just allocate all hits to those that are in LOS?

Hmmm. Not sure why you think that by Raw vehicles out of LOS must be hit just because they are in a squadron.

Short of a direct rules quote, woudln't the fact that a vehicle is out of LOS preclude it taking a hit at all, and effectively cause a firer to shoot at a squadron of 2 (assuming a squadron size of 3, with 1 model completely obscured from the firer). ?

I haven't played that way, I have most of the squadrons of vehicles where this might be an issue, Landspeeders Tornado squadrons, Viper Sqaudrons, Warwalkers  and Sentinels, and it never really matters for the skimmers as they don't block LOS to eachother.  I have in the past hid 1 walker behind the other 2 in the squadron by design or by acident, and have counted it as untargetable, (well until the AV 10 armor explodes with a 5/6 penetrating it, and it becomes visible to subsequent shooters), and I think I played it right.

Obviously walkers block Los, so they can't shoot through eachother, in a sqaudron or no, and this rule seems pretty intuitive on a fairness concept.  (I tried playing 11 IG walkers once and it was a complete LOS headache.) If you position your walkers the LOS issue is mutual, you can't shoot them and they can't hit you.  Seems pretty strait forward.  But I'm curious, I beleieve that's the right way to play it, but I have missed details before.

What did you read that makes you think vehicles outside of LOS have to be assigned hits in sqaudrons that take fire?

I realize intent arguments are poor, and not really binding at all, but if walkers are like infantry and infantry models aren't eligible as targets when they are out of range and LOS, why would that be any different for sqaudrons of walkers?  Isn't the pattern enough to establish intent?

I also think this would be true for range as well, pehaps a similar but easier example to envision, say an IG command squad moves forward and fires 4 melta guns at a landspeeder tornado sqauadron and miraculously gets 4 hits, but the 3 speeders in the squadron are at 6 inches, 12 inches and 18 inches away respectively, in a little line.  I believe the first speeder would take 2 hits with 2D6 penetration and the 2nd speeder would take 2 hits with D6 penetration and the 3rd speeder would take no hits as it's out of range for the melta guns.

Pretty simple eh?

LOS concerns would be handled similarly, if say, speeder 3 was out of LOS, instead of out of range.

Sinjin is talking about the horribly confusing section titled: Vehicles In A Unit (Squadron) on page 73 BGB.

I HAVE played this way with my sentinel squadrons. In other words I have used the RAW from the sub-section marked "Shooting Phase" where it tells us to spread hits around the unit.

Basically there are two ways to think of these rules and how they relate:

1. GW meant for us to use these rules for vehicle squadrons instead of the normal rules for vehicles blocking LOS to other vehicles (even when in the same unit). This is to represent a unit of lascannons destroying multiple walkers when the lead walker falls the one behind it is hit, then the next, and so on.

2. GW only meant for this rule to kick in when a unit of walkers is standing abreast and LOS and range would be similar to all vehicles in the squadron. So we would use the rules for vehicles blocking LOS AND the vehicles in a unit rules. In other words, break NO rule. If two sentinels can be seen by the firing unit and a third is behind the other two (out of LOS) the first two must have hits distributed between them but the third will be un-hit.

It really gets screwy when we try to apply the rules found here under "Assault Phase" to a walker. Do we follow the rules for walkers in assault or walkers in a squadron in an assault? Aaaaaah! *my head asplode*

I don't even want to talk about hand to hand... I think option 2 above is correct.

It's very odd how big a of a difference skimmers blocking LOS or not makes when they come in squadrons, could you imagine how bizarre this could be with a unit of 5 skimmers? Isn't that the pihrannah max?

I suppose if option 1 was correct, it wouldnt matter if the unit was skimmers or walkers, all hits in the squadron would be the same (method of application), maybe there is something to this idea?

as per the RAW i have always  allocated hits to each vehicle spread across the squad. it may not make much sense in real world physics but it is a game rule/mechanic without having to rely on something as hit and miss as trying to figure  GWs true intent.

I also think that is the RAW way to play it. In our club games that was how we played it and we would use the squadron rules for CC as well. In the store though, it seems the consensus is to play the opposite way (option 2). Like Augustus said, it seems a bit easier to accept this rules interpretation.

I could go either way. This is just another one of the thousands of questions to ask your opponent before the game starts. In fact, players should just write a short essay on themselves and exchange it before the game starts:

"Hi, my name is Glaive Company CO. I'm an Aries and a magic cylinder player. I enjoy long walks on the beach, candlelit dinners and using the COD area terrain rules..."

An essay... Superb Sir!

As a related tangent, this gets very gummy with Pirahnas, as they have different armor for different facings, unlike every other vehicle squadron in the game, so you need to know which ones are hit, and in what order, particularly because of the armor 11.  This will make properly facing vehicles in the squadron impervious to bolter fire (<=) S4and others vulnerable on the av 10 sides, it could be come very important very fast in games versus marines.

This single issue was raised in my gaming group several times when the new Tau codex came out, and we never could get an answer, and that is the main factor why no one in the group plays a Tau army. We were seriously considering armies based on Mech Fish, and 15 Pirahnas, with suits.  We never figured it out, and still don't know, and honestly because of the convolution of the Tau rules, like; how exactly do drones and mixed fire work out, and what to do with vehicle sqaudrons, and their attached drones etc. I haven't even seen a Tau army (at a  tourney, in progress or casually) for a year, and I think its because their rules are a complex swirling mess, most obviously skimmers sqaudrons for the reasons in this thread.

Remember, skimmers don't block line of sight.

Also, the Squadron rules state that walkes in an assault are treated like IC's, so each one fights as a seperate unit.

what really bothers me, is not 1 unit hiding behind the other 2.  I really couldn't care less if this 1 units takes hits or not.  What really bothers me is if I have 1 member of a squadron in view, and the other 2 hidden behind a wall (remember vehicles can be 4" apart) then all 3 of them can be destroyed by hits to the 1 in LOS.

That is just not right.  I would never force my opponent to play that way, and would be disgusted to be forced to play that way.

The way I've been playing my pirhanas and they way my group plays is that if they are out of LOS/range then they can't be hurt because the leading vehicle is in LOS/range.  This follows the general rules on shooting - if you can't see it, you can't shoot it. 

It's not that big of a deal with shooting as it basically only happens when part of the pirhana squad is hidden by a size 3 terrain feature.  

The hth issue with the different armour sides came up in a game the other day though - what we decided to do was he allocated his attacks based on who was facing what armour (2 on the side of one, 1 on the front of another).  This also didn't cause much of a problem becuase only one of the guys on the side managed to make a hit (and glance).  However, if the two guys on the side of one pirhana had both hit, then by RAW I think the hits would have to be spread to both skimmers - even though we had allocated the Attacks differently.  Does not make sense, but sense the rules don't say one way or the other it is possibly the "fairest" way to play it.

Posted By Sinjin on 01/25/2007 10:34 AM

Remember, skimmers don't block line of sight.

Also, the Squadron rules state that walkes in an assault are treated like IC's, so each one fights as a seperate unit.

what really bothers me, is not 1 unit hiding behind the other 2.  I really couldn't care less if this 1 units takes hits or not.  What really bothers me is if I have 1 member of a squadron in view, and the other 2 hidden behind a wall (remember vehicles can be 4" apart) then all 3 of them can be destroyed by hits to the 1 in LOS.

That is just not right.  I would never force my opponent to play that way, and would be disgusted to be forced to play that way.

 

I honestly don't know why you would think that vehicles in a squadron out of LOS would be hit by enemy fire.

Page 21of the rulebook states that models in the target unit that are out of LOS cannot be hit by firing and page 22 states that models in the target unit out of range can't be hit by the shooting.

These are general guidelines that would have to be directly overidden in the vehicle squadron rules for them to no longer be utilized.

Nothing in the vehicle squadron rules comes close to specifying that LOS or range restrictions are lifted. Therefore, to 'break no rule' you simply allocate the hits to the vehicle squadron while ignoring those that are out of range and/or LOS.

A follow on question for you all:

You have a squad of 2 skimmers that is near an enemy squad that has a plasma and a melta in it.  Both skimmers are within 12" and in LOS of the melta but only one is within 6" of it.  The enemy gets one hit with each weapon.  On which skimmer is the melta allocated?

It seems "fair" to me that the closer skimmer would be allocated the melta hit (after all the operator of the weapon knows that he should fire at the closer vehicle) but the rules don't say one way or the other.  In fact it seems perfectly legal for the skimmer player to allocate the melta hit to the further vehicle reducing the AP dice to a single die.

Any viewpoints on how it should be played?

I can't find anything in the squadron rules that lets the defending player allocate 'certain' hits to each vehicle. It just tells us that he must allocate one hit to each vehicle before any vehicle can be assigned a second. This starts with the closest vehicle. So, the defending player can't screw the attacking player out of a close range melta-hit for two reasons:

1. He cannot choose which vehicle will recieve the melta hit.
2. The closest one must recieve one of the hits. The defending player cannot start with the vehicle at the back of the squadron hoping to exhaust the number of hits before reaching the vehicle within danger range.

Since all shooting from one squad is resolved at the same time, all "hits" are allocated at the same time. The SM player has caused a plasma hit and melta hit. I assign the plasma hit to the skimmer closest and the melta hit to the further skimmer. I have follwed RAW. Each vehicle has received one hit.

I'm playing devil advocate here, I agree that the skimmer within the melta's double AP should take the melta hit. But there is nothing in RAW to support that.

I see where you're going but there's a fine line between assigning hits and assigning a particular hit.

In normal infantry vs infantry shooting the book actually tells us that the defending player can choose which model will make what save. So we'll say there is a Guard unit with lasguns and one meltagun firing on a Chaplain led Death Company. Lets say the Guard unit scores all of its hits and wounds and these happen to equal the number of models from the DC unit. The DC player MUST assign a hit/wound to the Chaplian, but he can decide to save against one of the lasgun shots instead of the melta shot. This seems pretty clear as it is described on pages 26-27 of the rulebook

If a squadron of veicles has been fired at the hits must be distributed to each vehicle starting with the closest. This is different from the rules above because since there is no wounding roll to make we distrubute hits instead of wounds. This rule is also different because there is no mention of the defending player getting to choose which model will take what hit/wound.

So even though your are correct when you say all hits are allocated at the same time there is nothing in the rules to support forcing the attacking player to assign apecific hits to specific vehicles.

Example 1: SM player causes 2 melta and 1 plasma hit. Using the scenario above the SM player could put 2 melta hits on the closest vehicle and one plasma hit on the furthest vehicle.
Example 2: SM player causes 2 melta hits. Using the scenario above the closest vehicle would be subject to a danger range shot and the other would simply get the Str8+1D6 pen shot.

Just to point out something said on page 1: the rules explicitly state that vehicles in a squadron never block LOS to vehicles in the same squadron. So even if you conga-line your Sentinels, they can all be wiped out by a lascannon battery (or a heavy bolter battery, really).

I do agree that the squadron rules don't obviate the requirement for range and LOS for each vehicle, as long as LOS-blockage from vehicles in the same squadron is ignored.

It doesn't seem clear about the hits (ie 1 melta + 1 plasma from same unit at a squadron with only one vehicle within 6"), but I think that the the defending player should be able to assign hits. This is completely a 'spirit of the rules' thing based on the ability to assign wounds to saving throw groups when dealing with infantry.

If you really want that melta bonus die, then don't fire the plasma. Or follow general dakka advice: don't mix special weapon types in the same unit.