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In the 40k Tyranid fluff, it says that hive minds would often just send waves and waves of gaunts into the enemy just to exhaust ammunition before the actual attack. Personally, this is the image that gets drilled in my head when I think of anything remotely related to 40K...blazing guns against blood thirsty aliens.

Translating this into game terms..I was just wondering what would happen if your army took on its points value in standard Tyranid Spineguants (no bio-guns, just claws and what not), on a 48' x 72' table, with your army set up on one short board edge and the nids on the opposite (making for a very tasty 48" kill zone at least)

Oh and the spineguants have these special rules for the scenario...

1) They all count as 1 unit for purposes of morale tests for shooting. And they test at base Ld 7 for all morale/leadership tests. (represents some control of the hive mind over them).
2) No unit coherency for them. Not that there'll be much room on the board mind you.
3) Will hit all non-fast/skimmer vehicles at 5+, skimmers/fast at 6+ (movement rules apply etc.) and cause a glancing hit on a further roll of 6+ (gives the guys a chance and for the mental picture of 30 odd aliens leaping onto a tank and devouring it).
4) Use normal assault rules, but if the guants make a sweeping advance, only the models that were in the assault in the first place go. If forced to fall back, will instead just lose the closest D6 models.

So against the 375 models racing towards me....my Mech Tau would probably lose as they are tailored more for Anti-Meq. Devilfish and Broadside would almost be useless in this sort of scenario and not enough guns to form a solid firebase.

There you have it, something to ponder over, or if you're paticularily bold, to actually attempt!

At 2000pts., my 100-man Marines versus 400 spinegaunts... It would probably be close.

First, the missile launchers from one of the Devs and all the Tacs start fragging holes in the advancing horde, as well as the Epistolary adding his 2 bits with FotA.
At 36", the other 2 Dev squads add in their weight with heavy bolters.
At 24", the 81 bolter shots (bolters and stormbolters) and 8 plasma guns open up.
Whatever weathers that gets assaulted or counterassaulted by around 100 Marines.

I may have to run the dice on this, just to see...

Hmmm... 3 Squadrons of 3 Warwalkers with two Scatter Lasers. 3 Vipers with 2 Shuriken Cannons. 4 Dire Avenger squads that blade storm. 2 Howling Banshee counter assualt squads. 1 Eldrad, and 1 Farseer guiding the the Warwalkers. I don't know how the numbers would add up, but I think as long as the Dire Avengers got lucky enough to Blade Storm before being assualt, it would be game over for the Nids.

My extremely successful Mech Tau would be toast. There's no way in hell I'd be able to stop them, outmaneuver them or even vaguely kill enough. Although the first 2 turns would be fun with 3 sub-munition shots per turn...

Posted By lord_sutekh on 01/30/2007 12:45 AM
At 2000pts., my 100-man Marines versus 400 spinegaunts... It would probably be close.

First, the missile launchers from one of the Devs and all the Tacs start fragging holes in the advancing horde, as well as the Epistolary adding his 2 bits with FotA.
At 36", the other 2 Dev squads add in their weight with heavy bolters.
At 24", the 81 bolter shots (bolters and stormbolters) and 8 plasma guns open up.
Whatever weathers that gets assaulted or counterassaulted by around 100 Marines.

I may have to run the dice on this, just to see...

Mathhammer wise the most anti-gaunt tooled up 100 marines setup at 2000 points will get rid of about 200+ gaunts as they are aproaching.... that is assuming they came at you at the open with averagle fleet rolls from a 45" distance

that are a lot of gaunts to figth off in hth but 3+ armor save will make a diffrence and i suppose 100 marines will prevail against 200 gaunts...

I think my Orkies would have a good chance.
They could rain Big Shoota fire on the spineys, and would be lethal enough in assault to kill tons of them.

6 Venerable dreadnoughts, 9 Typhoons, 2x5 man tac squads and a 60 points Captain strait out of the box.

Bring 500 Gaunts! they can't hurt my 6 dreads, the rest is gravy.

I win.

Not even considering that slight variation on the rules?

Orchewer,

While this is certianly a fun little theory game, part of the Spinegaunt's cheap points costs vs. its abilities are the fact that they are entirely dependent upon the Hive Mind to function (in other words, you'll have to spend points elsewhere in the army to make up for these deficiencies).

I think the Gaunt's cost should be increased by at least 2-3 points a piece for these abilities in this theory game.

Lastly, there is at least one major loop-hole in the rules you've created. One use of a power like Fear of the Darnkess and the game is over (as the entire Gaunt army runs away on any 2D6 roll over a 5).

I don't know why you just don't have the Gaunts form normal units and give each unit a Ld of 7.


Anyway, its a fun idea and it would be interesting to try out.

To make it simple and fit the image in your head, I'd say assume the spinegaunts are fearless. Also, with the huge numbers of gaunts allowed, allow units to shoot into the horde even if the horde is engaged in melee with someone, and let the horde continue to move in its turn even if it has already entered assault. You could do what Yak recommends and break it up into regular squads, but that hurts the defenders more as some shots will be wasted as you wipe out a unit, and I have a feeling you'll need every kill to win this. Plus, with that many gaunts on the table, you'll have them all in one big blob anyway.

Let's see how the mathhammer works out on this.... my 2000 point list:

Doctrines
Drop Troops
Veterans
Iron Discipline
Light Infantry
Heavy Weapon Platoons

HQ 356
JO with ID, pistol, CCW
4 Guardsmen, 2 plasma, 1 company standard
Fire support squad x3 Heavy Bolters
Fire support squad x3 Heavy Bolters
Anti-Tank squad x3 lascannons

Elites 225

3 x Vet squads with 5 models each, 3 plasma guns each

Troops
1st Platoon 380
HQ
JO, ID, Heavy Bolter, Light Inf
Squad with Lascannon, plasma, light inf
Squad with Lascannon, plasma, light inf
Squad with Lascannon, plasma, light inf

2nd Platoon 335
HQ
JO, ID, Heavy Bolter
Squad with missile, plasma
Squad with missile, plasma
Squad with missile, plasma

Heavy Support
3rd Platoon 425
HQ
JO, ID, Heavy Bolter, Light Inf
Squad, x3 lascannons, Light Inf
Squad, x3 lascannons, Light Inf
Squad, x3 lascannons, Light Inf

Basilisk, indirect 125
Basilisk, indirect 125

1971 points (not going to mess with the other 29 at this point)
131 troops, 85 lasguns, 9 HBs, 15 lascannons, 3 missile launchers, 17 plasma guns
Assuming my army is lined up exactly 48" away, everything comes out stat, and I go first:

400 gaunts (just claws) 48" away. 15 lascannons, 3 missiles (frags catch 3), 2 bassilisks cover 7 each
kill 20
380 gaunts at 39" away 15 lascannons, 3 missiles (frags catch 3), 2 bassilisks cover 7 each
kill 20
360 gaunts at 30" away 9 HBs, 15 lascannons, 3 missiles (frags catch 3), 2 bassilisks cover 7 each
kill 31
329 gaunts at 21" away above plus 85 lasguns, 17 plasma guns (ignoring overheat, vet BS)
kill 56
273 gaunts at 12" away above, and all rapid-fire weapons are assumed to rapid fire
kill 80
193 gaunts charge my 131 troops. All can fight. My line platoons strike first with CoD.
kill 14. 179 gaunts kill 61 guardsmen (all taken from non-line squads, all that existed), 61 non-line troops kill 13 gaunts.

Hmmm...looking bad for the home team

166 gaunts remain. 70 in line platoons strike first, killing 14.
152 gaunts kill 25 troops,45 left.

At that rate, looks like the gaunts will win, unless the basilisks can roll in and start crushing gaunts. On second thought, they are open topped, so that might not be a good idea...maybe I should cut back on lascannons and grab a few more heavy bolter teams! That last round of shooting would be tough if really played out. You probably wouldn't get all the rapid-fire you want, because you'd quickly kill everything in the kill zone, and the gaunts, with decent fleet rolls, will be able to run further than the 12" area you clear with ease.

Alright...time for bed.

(Spine Guants with spine fists and thats it are only 5 a piece)
400 Spineguants versus my Tyranid Scraper (as in off my boot)

1 Farseer with Guide: 75
1 Farseer with Guide: 75
40 Dire Avengers with 4 exarchs with blade storm, and double ASC
6 Dire Avengers
9 War Walkers with Twin Scatter Lasers
9 Vipers with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons

(The numbers dead are just in that turn)
1st turn: 57 dead
2nd turn: 68 dead
3rd turn: 128 dead (I Think your low on guants, leadership test at a 6, or run away)
4th turn: 68 dead (I think I would get that many turns because your closest models would have all been killed)
5th Turn: I am pretty sure that 79 guants die in hand to hand with me, or I just moved up with the Dire avengers letting you hit them while the vehicles all back up out of massacre sweep range, giving me another round of shooting, proceed to scrape boots.

Uh...whole army sits in chimeras and lets 8 ML/HB/HS AV 12 vehicles do their thing while I lay down 3 pie plates every turn, not to mention the occasional hellhound template and cyclopse demolition vehicle and once or twice, a sucicide command squad jumping out to say hello with 4 flamers. When you did charge the vehicles, guess what? You're taking 10-12 tank shock tests until you run away.
cheers

Actually, the funniest scenario that occurs to me is a Khorne army mounted in rhinos with the destroyer uprgrade running over scores of gaunts.
Hilarity!

Or a Mech Tau with Flechette Launchers. Make a "skimmer wall" with loads of stealth suits behind it, and tank shock them back while the Hammerheads shoot 3 pie plates a turn.

I like the tau idea, except damn thats a bit exspencive, oh and just fire warriors would be cheaper, with longer range.

Option A: 720 points
18 stealth suits with bs 4 is 54 shots with 36 hits, 30 kills: thats 720 points

Option B: 720 points
72 fire warriors with bs 3 is 36 hits, 30 kills from 30 to 18 inches, 60 kills at 12 inches

Option C: 720 points
10 Pathfinders: thats 5 marker light hits on average, 5 squads go up to bs4
60 Fire Warriors with bs 4 because of marker lights: 40 hits, 33.4 kills at 30 to 18, 66.8 at 12

(Devilfish being used anyway for wall, so not counted for the pathfinder increase to cost)

Option D: 720 points
10 Pathfinders: thats 5 marker light hits on average, 5 squads go up to bs4
60 Fire Warriors with bs 4 Pulse Carbines because of marker lights: 40 hits, 33.4 kills at 18 inches, with 5 Pinning Tests, which they would fail and lock down the entire swarm.

(Make the guants fearless or things get stupid, bring in the old rules about squads having a hive mind node)

How about a slight change to the excercise - fearless Termagants, exactly as they appear in the book. Nine points with fleshborer and WON. S4 makes for the occasional glance against AV10.

My vote for army most likely to win a gaunt-squishing competition would be Necrons. Their whole list - aside from Wraiths and Pariahs - is just a large bucket of anti-GEQ dice.

I would concede before the game even begins. Who would want to wait every round for someone to move 300+ models in the movement then again on the fleet rolls in the shooting phase. Then when they get to assault and have to roll all those dice. Wait is that 400 or 450 attacks. (finding the space on the table to roll your dice is another problem) I would strangley find 1 hour watching Oprah more exciting. (Cringe) Wargaming should be fun is my motto.  This is why often play GK's so that I only have to move 20 or so models around.

...a large bucket of anti-GEQ dice.

Ha ha ha. Sure!

-What do you mean we CAN'T raise a dreadnought on any of the comm channels?

              -Brother Captain Augustus at the termination of the Siege at OlympusIV

The idea of 3 Whirlwinds with castillian mines brings a smile to my face in this sinerio. Its the hurt that just keeps on hurting. 3 mines a turn that don't go away and can kill every turn.

What if I used my Tyranid Army and I took 1850 points worth of Spineguants to fight the 1850 points worth of Spinegaunts??

BYE

Then the world explodes... and then where would you put your stuff?

I'm considering your guants to be fearless and you have 375 of them. I think my eldar could do it, not the same list I'd take to a tournament but a specialized list just for you. Eldrad, 18 harlequins, 2 x 10 dire avengers in scatterlaser wave serpents everybody with bladestorm, and 3 fireprisms. Assuming that you'll max tightly packed 2 of the 3 fireprisms each turn will be firing off guilded 5" templates and everything will move forward to get their guns in range, from there the skimmers back off each turn until you have pushed me back to my deployment zone, and some where arround turn 7. My harlequins will then launch forward into combat against 58 (if I went first) or 106 guants if I didn't go first. They will kill about 30 probably denying any counter attacks. I'm pretty sure if it all went the way I envision it yeah thats a lot of dead guants and the eldar would have something to cheer about... now make it a recon mission and suddenly I dont think I'm gonna win, or any objective scenario.

Hmmmm... I would have to say Salamanders or Sisters FTW here.  All the juicy tear drop template goodness.  Not to mention plenty of longer ranged fire to thin the ranks before they got into toaster range.
Aztralwolf

Why fearless or any other add ons? That makes them worth disproportionately more than their points (or cost more points) and the whole point of the exercise is to see how you can do against a bunch of little cheapies (fleeting I4 cheapies). If you start adding stuff, it just becomes an anti Tyranid tactics thread.

For my part, noise marines w/sonic blasters and blastmasters don't mind lots of spinegaunts (Troops stand still for 15 S4 shots and 1 S8 blast or move and fire 10 S4 and 2 S5 pinning; for havocs 6 or 9 S4 and 3 S8 blasts or 6 S5 pinning). By my reckoning, that means troops would kill 3.6 or 5.4 per round with SBs and the template would be good for 2 more (S5 should kill 1) for a total of 6.4 (32 pts) standing still or 4.6 (23 pts.) on the move. Havocs should yield 3.24 + 4.25 from blasts (7.74 or 38.7 points) standing still or 5.16 on the move (25.8 points).

In CC, if I can get the charge (unlikely, since I would probably want to hang back and shoot, but daemonettes could) a 6 man squad of daemonettes swings first (I4 + Warp Scream) with 18 attacks, which should net 3 rends and 3.9 wounds after saves for a total of about 7 dead gaunts. If I positioned correctly, that should prevent any counter attacks. Without the charge and on ensuing rounds, the ladies are looking at 12 attacks (still swinging first) with 2 rends + 2.6 wounds after saves for a total of 4.6. Any counter attacking spinegaunt inflicts 0.15 casualties (.33 on a charge, naturally). So the ladies should do fine.

As to NM squads and havocs, asssuming any gaunts get to them (:-)), the NMs swing 1st thanks to warp scream. On the charge, that would be 10 S4 SB attacks, 2 S5 BM attacks, 10 squad attacks and 4 champ S5 PW attacks w/re-roll. Pretty nasty. But, the charge is unlikely, so more likely 5 squad attacks and 3 champ PW attacks w/re-roll. After re-rolls and saves, that is about 4 dead gaunts. Assuming a squad of 20, that is 16 survivors with 32 attacks; 1.7 wounds after saves. Not so hot. In the next round, the 4-5 survivors inflict 3 more wounds, on average, and deal with 13 attacks; .77 wounds on average after saves. etc. Eventually, the NMs should end up on top, though likely down to the champ (who kills 2/ round reliably) and maybe 1 squadmate. Still, the NMs run the cost of 2 20 man spiney squads, so if 1 can grind them down....

And then there is the Lord of Killiness. Fleet means he could get the charge with 7 S5 LC Spiky Bitz attacks. (Not counting his Doom Siren Template!) He should clean out that kill zone w/5+ kills. Ensuing rounds might prove more difficult as gaunts pile in, but Combat drugs help, as he can switch to using 2 drugs, 1 to prevent a wound from gaunts. Since he clocks in at around 200 points, that's 40 gaunts to match. If they are in 2 squads of 20, a whole squad could get to him at a time. Assuming he kills 10 before they even get to attack, that is 10 attacks coming at him, which is a paltry .55 wounds and can be prevented by the drugs (although he risks doubles 1/36). If a whole squad piles on top of him in a charge, he still nukes 5 reliably, leaving 30 attacks. This is 1.66 wounds after saves and knock another off for drugs- .66 wounds. The next round, they lose 5 more and drop to 10 attacks- see above. He's looking pretty good! Conceivably, he could run through several sqads of spineys (especially with daemonette support or shooting to weaken the squad), but would need to be careful as he is near guaranteed survival if he charges, but at risk if charged.

Sure my daemonettes and PWeapons become less useful, but since I beat them on I with everything anyway, it doesn't really matter too much. Plus, doom sirens become that much cooler, since the template actually works on gaunts. The combination of high I and lots of shooting should see the gaunts off the table or into the deadpile. Low STR and lack of AP means even if they tie up my units, the gaunts still aren't in a great spot. Plus, fearlessness means my stuff fights until the end.

Mm...I think my Kroot would have fun with this. 5 points for a Spinegaunt versus 9 points (8 points, base, plus 21 points for a shaper spread over a 20-model unit) for a Krootling doesn't seem like much, but I get a higher +1 WS, +1 S (to shooting and hand to hand), and +1 A. Toss in my Kroot Hound Packs for counter assault - Hounds being 7.5 points per model for +1 WS, +1 STR, +1A over the Spinegaunts (9 Carnivores + 1 Shaper + 20 Hounds = 7.5 points per model).

I think I'd do pretty damn good.

Something that I kinda thought of.

A SM tank army.

6 rhinos, scouts mounted in it with 2 flamers

whirlwinds (to lay out minefields)

Rest is just filler, but that is the key to it. Any idea if moving around a rhino and spitting out 2 flamers out of each will work?

Ah, but the point isn't "tool up to kill gaunts" it is YOUR army v. equivalent points in gaunts.