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So yea.  the Dark Angels are finally getting their much needed rules update, and I'm really looking forwards to seeing how the updated list plays.  We've all read the 20+ pages of news and rumors, and discussed different possibilities of the list for months now.

My question is this, based on the direction GW is taking the 'Big Four' marine chapters, what changes can the BA be looking forwards to?

I'm honestly at a loss as to what changes will be made.  Can we expect the whole 5/10 man split for command squads?  What about BA scouts?  Will they be elites like DA, or troopers like Vanilla Marines? 

I don't know honestly, but I will go over what I DON'T want to see:

1.) Tactical Marines with chainswords and bolt pistols.  We are not red templars, and I for one like my ten man bolter tactical marines led by a PF veteran sergeant.

2.) Removal of the Death Company.  That's not to say that I think the DC shouldn't be toned down.  As it stands they are a very powerful unit.  Not end-all-be-all super-squad however.  I would like to see a different method of implementing them personally. 

3.) Removal of the special BA specific equipment such as Death Masks, Grails, and other things.

4.) Keeping the rhinos and razorbacks at their present points value.  They're so not worth it in the present format.  Drop Pods are far far superior IMO.  I'd like to see Rhinos and Razorbacks made viable again. 

Thats my thoughts.  Anyone else care to chime in? 

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I suspect that the price of their Blood Rage type abilities will be factored into their price.

GW has mostly removed mandatory pre-turn rolling from other armies (like DA). I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose their bonus movement rule.

Death Company will probably still be around, but I could see them getting major changes. Possibly losing their Feel Know Pain rule or possibly being bought in a less random manner.


I'm going to go out and speculate that GW is likely to change the rules for BA using Rhinos. Rhinos were a very recent expensive plastic kit, and GW has sold about 5 of them since 4th edition rules were released.

Not a full return to Rhino rush, but possibly being able to assault out of a Rhino if it hasn't moved over 6" or something similar.

You hontestly just want to give away the extra hth attack in combat.  Every other chapter has chainfists now and BAs have the best traits of all of them to use an extra hand weapon.  I hope if they include anything they allow troops to carry chainswords and bolt pistols.  When I field my BAs now I always have two units of scouts as troops, one regular with sniper rifles and one full and infiltrating.  Then I stuff a couple of assault squads without packs into a couple of LRs.  That is they way the BAs are meant to be played.  I agree with you that I hope they bring back the rhino rush for this army that was so uniquely suited to the rhino rush that it became part of their character and I dare say part of the very legend that surrounds them.

Wulfy

I don't know honestly, but I will go over what I DON'T want to see:

1.) Tactical Marines with chainswords and bolt pistols.  We are not red templars, and I for one like my ten man bolter tactical marines led by a PF veteran sergeant.

2.) Removal of the Death Company.  That's not to say that I think the DC shouldn't be toned down.  As it stands they are a very powerful unit.  Not end-all-be-all super-squad however.  I would like to see a different method of implementing them personally. 

3.) Removal of the special BA specific equipment such as Death Masks, Grails, and other things.

4.) Keeping the rhinos and razorbacks at their present points value.  They're so not worth it in the present format.  Drop Pods are far far superior IMO.  I'd like to see Rhinos and Razorbacks made viable again. 

I've heard unsubstantiated rumors about a appendix to the BA Codex published in White Dwarf at some time in the near future.  Granted, it could all be made up  so don't get excited.  Something like a min-codex or something.

Anyway, I agree that the BA codex needs revisions.  The Death Company is a great unit Idea, but the Blood Angel player should have to pay for the troops.  The black rage rules also need to be addressed.  I think that they should only affect the death company.  It makes the game go faster and it didn't have an appreciable effect on the game.

Death Company is randomly generated. You can just as well end up with a very small unit as a large unit... unless you design your army to specifically generate a large Death Company. For example, taking lots of small squads of Marines with naked veteran sergeants so that you can add a large number of Death Company Marines with power swords and/or powerfists. Another trick to generating a large Death Company is to take two Chaplains as your HQ selection. So in my opinion the best way to approach a revision of the Death Company is to change their generation such that these tricks no longer apply.

- One such change could be to limit the Death Company to only come from veteran units such as veteran assault squads, veteran squads and terminators.

- Another change would be to allow BA players to pay for powerfists and/or power swords and limit the maximum number available, such as two at the most.

- Making the Chaplain a 0 - 1 selection for HQ would also limit the Death Company.

Wargear such as the death mask and blood grail help to create a fluffy army but they are also quite powerful. If the new codex follows along the lines of the new DA codex then these items will probably be limited to special characters.

I would like to see rules in the new codex that allow you to create Death Company armies and the Flesh Tearers, just as DA can field pure DW and RW armies. I believe this can be done such that neither alternate list is too powerful by placing restrictions on them.

- Greenie

Honestly, we should pay something for our Furious Charge. Not the full price due to Black Rage.
Make sure nothing makes Black Rage anything easier to get.
Nix the "mobile bomb" rule for over charged engines. Immobilization is fine, but blowing up? BA DO have techmarines installing the upgrades; they're not orks.
Agreed with limiting Vets going to DC. DC should have to pay for special weapons.
Lower the costs of Vet Assaulters. Currently they're way over priced.
Make Sanquinary Priests (not High Priests) play a larger roll. Maybe a squad add on for certain units. Very fluffy and rarely seen.

To Wulfy: there are a variety of ways BA, "Were meant to be played".

Wulfy:  I must respectfully disagree with you regarding how "BA were meant to be played"

Blood Angels are basic marines with a little bit of an extra kick when they charge into H2H combat.  They can be played as a close-combat monster army, but they're not as well suited for that role. 

If you want that kind of thing, play Khorne or Black Templars, as both of these lists outshine BA in hand to hand. 

The way I see it, Blood Angels are a noble chapter who follow the precepts and principles of the codex astarties fairly rigidly.  They conform to the normal company organization of any other codex chapter, they keep AND field two COMPLETE companies of devestators and each battle company has twenty devestator marines in it. 

If you see Blood Angels as nothing more than loyalist berserker marines, then I'm sorry to say you have completely missed what the Blood Angels are all about.  Also, the Black Rage is a very very very BAD THING.  Blood Angels don't like it, and if anyone here knows anything about the fluff, they want to get rid of it, stop it, or otherwise make it go away ASAP.

I want that feel, that overwhelming sense of danger,... of falling into damnation if a marine lets his will lapse for even a moment.

THAT is what blood angels are, and how they are meant to be played?   Well I'll leave you and your money to decide how you want to build the list.

I will say this much.  I don't want tactical marines with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords.  It flies in the face of what the blood angels are.  They're a codex chapter with a potentially catastrophic flaw barely held in check, each marine fighting his own private battle versus the rage.  Despite this, they always maintain themselves and dutifully follow the Codex Astarties, maintaining themselves as best they can while dealing with the thirst. 

To give them two H2H weapons would be a cop-out in my opinion.  I would view it as nothing more than GW caving to raving fanboys and their misguided sense of who and what the Blood Angels chapter was and is. 

I'm waiting, as I have been since 4th ed came out.  Hopefully BA will be polished and balanced for 4th edition, while still maintaining the marvelous backstory and history of the chapter and keeping it intact.

Thats my thoughts on that. 

Take it easy.

-RT-

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/15/2007 3:54 PM
- One such change could be to limit the Death Company to only come from veteran units such as veteran assault squads, veteran squads and terminators.

- Another change would be to allow BA players to pay for powerfists and/or power swords and limit the maximum number available, such as two at the most.

- Making the Chaplain a 0 - 1 selection for HQ would also limit the Death Company.

Yeah they could do that.  Or they could, oh I don't know... BUY THEM WITH PTS JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME.

"But Abadabablabbadabadoobadabadoobaddon (or whatever your name is)!!  That's CRAZY!!!"

Yes, I know - so crazy... it just might work.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 02/15/2007 9:49 PM

Yeah they could do that.  Or they could, oh I don't know... BUY THEM WITH PTS JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME.

They are already paid for- you buy the marine that goes to the DC.  The trick is not to give them an abundance of free items.

Posted By Moopy on 02/15/2007 9:56 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 02/15/2007 9:49 PM

Yeah they could do that.  Or they could, oh I don't know... BUY THEM WITH PTS JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME.

They are already paid for- you buy the marine that goes to the DC.  The trick is not to give them an abundance of free items.

Well if you want to get really technical you pay pts for everything - it's just that sometimes the amount you pay is 0 pts.  And therein lies the rub, eh?  You pay 15 pts but instead of a tac marine you get a crazy super-duper Black-With-RedX Marine.

So what could possibly be more balanced than getting an abundance of items for free?  Hmm... I know!  What about getting an abundance of NOTHING for free!

Or, failing that, getting an abundance of items for not-free.

Not quite so. The trade off, is you MIGHT get some DC. Not a guarntee unless you take a Chappy.... but then again you pay for those extras. Without him, you MIGHT get some, you might not. Small units supder-duper Black-With_RedX Marines are dead on arrival. The randomness makes this unit hard to be effected other than a boogy man unit, and every DCmarine you take to form a little unit, makes all the other units they came from easier to get under 50%.

What you're spot on is the Free X-mas Party you get for them (Rhino or the free jump packs). Veting a PW from taking a vet is ok, since you paid 15pts to upgrade him to a vet so you're losing 5pts at that point. Free PF for a vet isn't. This is the problem with the unit, not that you (maybe) get a few crazed marines.

Wow, not quite sure why I got a triple post on that last one...

Weird...

Anyway, onto the discussion on Death Company.

One of the major factors that governs the effectiveness of the Death Company is the sheer randomness. If you're not fielding a chaplain, the DC are probably not going to break five or six models strong. For someone like me, who runs a mere four squads of marines in his 1850 list (all 10 man strong, 3 tactical and one assault) at most I was going to be adding four or five marines to the death company a game if I was rolling high. Obviously mileage varies however.

If you DO field a chaplain, which I do normally, you're paying for the random D3+3 roll for DC. Which is a premium. People are shocked to hear that my chaplain runs as much as he does (average is around 270 some odd points with the DC points added in) but he's my only HQ character, so I feel justified spending that on him.

Are DC a great bang for their buck? Sure-as-shootin' they are! However they weren't designed to be the center of an army list. At least not in my opinion. They were a flavorful way of making BA distinctive, but people twisted them around to a near game-breaking point through abuse which IMO should have been for-seen by GW developers/play testers. DC are only abused by powergamers, just like Iron Warriors can have fluffy effective lists without pulling out a basilik, vindicator, defiler, and 8 man tankhunting havoc squad w/ autocannons backed up by nine obliterators.

The key to things as they currently are is trying to convince someone that they should build their list WITH death company, not AROUND the death company. Of course this isn't going to happen, but a guy can hope.

I for one would like to pay X points for a random number of death company marines, make it a D3+3, or a D6+1, whatever. For every time you spend X points, one model gets a power weapon or power fist upgrade for,..lets say 5 points for the PW, 10 for the PF. If you field a chaplain, and have death company on the board, they automatically join him as a retinue. Jump packs or rhino are the options available, and should be factored in to the cost of X.

Lets say X = 100 points for D3+1 DC marines. At 2 models, the minimum one could roll, a player is paying 50 points per marine. At 3 models, 33.333 points, and at 4 models, 25 points. Plus in the 10 points for a powerfist for one of the DC models, and you've got something. If a player wants to spend another 100 points, so be it, but all DC models form one unit. Would this be fair? Who knows? Without play testing something it's anyone's guess.

Another option is that the Chaplain could come with a few DC models by default as well if you field him. No random number like we have now (D3+3) but a fixed number like 3 death company models as a retinue. Their points cost are included in the chaplain's, but you pay extra for JP's on them if you want 'em, and one can upgrade to a power weapon/fist.

These are just some of my musings on the topic of Death Company. Anyone else have any comments?

Thanks for the feedback so far. take it easy everyone.

-RT-

Posted By Moopy on 02/15/2007 11:57 PM
Not quite so. The trade off, is you MIGHT get some DC.

So I pay 15 pts and I MIGHT get a marine worth 15 pts or I MIGHT get a super-duper Black-With-RedX marine worth (by any reasonable appraisal) at least several pts more than 15 pts.  Wow, what a trade off.

I remember one game I played with Blood Angels years ago, and I ended up with a massive death company.
It was bizare.

There's a really simple way to do this.  In every non-vehicle, non-character armylist entry have a special rule that says:

Death Company: 1 in X marines may be upgraded to Death Company for +Y pts.  See Death Company entry for further details.

X and Y will vary depending on the unit.  So maybe X will be smaller for vet squads than for scout squads.  Y will be smaller for more expensive units (and negative for really expensive ones).

All models upgraded in this way form a separate unit.  They replace their standard equipment with power armor, bolt pistol, etc, and they have the Feel No Pain USR yadda yadda yadda...  1 in Z models may upgrade to power weapon for +10 pts; power fist for +15 pts; etc.  The Death Company is treated as an Elites choice but does not take up a slot on the FOC.

Then simply allow chaplains to be attached to Death Company in the same way that they can be attached to command squads (ie, they are treated as a single choice).  A chaplain attached to Death Company still counts as an IC.

We could come up with something random but forgetting the squads. A death company unit could be mandatory - and not even counting in the force org chart - in every Blood angels army. That unit would count 1D6 models for each 750 pts of the army (Or whatever - you get the idea), plus 3 per Chaplain, and so on.

Each unit member would be priced and pay for upgrades normally.

I haven't played against BA in ages. How are victory points scored for DC? Would it be enough to make the DC automatically give up their VPs (including the Chaplain if taken) at the start of the game regardless of whether they're dead?

As of right now, DC give up no points whatsoever.  Giving up VPs for the marines inducted into DC could be a possible way of alleviating some problems associated with "free upgrades." DC need some sort of gamble to keep the sense of "danger." Whether that is free VPs at the start of game or some other method, like paying MORE base points for POSSIBLE DC combatants (e.g. vet sgts. cost 25 base, or if fewer units are allowed into DC, each of those models in those units are +5 points base), I don't know. But anything is better than the current freebie system.

yeah stealth power weapons in a unit of upgraded str and initiative with no drwback, save the vet isn't in the original squad (which really isn't a drawback for space marines) is the biggest monkey joke of the army. I can't tell you how many double chaplin or chaplin and sanguinary high priest led units of death company I see and all the death company have power weapons, oh go figure..

that definately needs a kick in the right direction.

"Blood Angels are basic marines with a little bit of an extra kick when they charge into H2H combat. They can be played as a close-combat monster army, but they're not as well suited for that role."

Okay so now the truth comes out. You are a condensing person who feels he knows best how to play the chapter. To say BA are not a cc oriented army is a load of bullocks. Honorguard, DC, and veteran assault Marines all come instantly to mind. I suggest you play some other army like SoB or eldar and stop trying to a ruin a great army for everyone else.

- Greenie

Posted By Moopy on 02/15/2007 11:57 PM
The trade off, is you MIGHT get some DC. Not a guarntee unless you take a Chappy.... but then again you pay for those extras. Without him, you MIGHT get some, you might not.

I've yet to see anyone play BA without a chaplain.  Players understand that they're going to have DC and plan accordingly.  Chaplain with jump pack is mandatory in BA the way the army is currently constructed.  DC happens and they get jump packs, then off they go.  Rest of army fits snugly into those turbo-charged rhinos (painted red, coincidently, to make them go faster).

Yes, free jump packs (oh wait, sorry, you have to pay ~20 points for the chaplain to have one) are an issue, too. So your 13 point scout just turned into a Jump packed, power armored killing machine, yea...

The BA should pay for EVERY SINGLE option they get. No "random DC," nothing. They should pay for Furious Charge, they should pay for the Black Rage, they should pay for each and every DC they take and pay for every power weapon and jump pack in the DC. Period. Also, fixing the Black Rage so BA players don't do the Blood Angels Shuffle should be addressed as well. As long as BA players actually PAY for all of the advantages they get, I'm satisfied.

Also, I think including rules for playing the Flesh Tearers or pure DC lists would be cool.

Posted By stonefox on 02/16/2007 8:56 AM

As of right now, DC give up no points whatsoever.  Giving up VPs for the marines inducted into DC could be a possible way of alleviating some problems associated with "free upgrades."

The obvious solution to the "free upgrades" problem is to make them cost an appropriate amount of pts.  It's really that simple.  Why bend over backwards adding layers upon layers of special rules to avoid charging pts for DC?  If you want the DC to give up VPs fine - you can balance it by making them cheaper than they would be otherwise.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't have to buy them like every other unit in the game.

I don't see why Death Company has to be random.  It's just dumb.  Q: Why don't they just make a rule where you roll 2D6 and on a 12 your battle barge gets delayed in the warp and your army just doesn't show up?  A: Because that would be slowed and Not Fun.

You should get what you pay for - no more, no less.

The BA are being added to the Chaos codex. JK, they will have another alien dex after the DA than more than likely the BA.

Isn't this a "discussion" not a "rumour"?

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/16/2007 10:12 AM

Okay so now the truth comes out. You are a condensing person who feels he knows best how to play the chapter. To say BA are not a cc oriented army is a load of bullocks. Honorguard, DC, and veteran assault Marines all come instantly to mind. I suggest you play some other army like SoB or eldar and stop trying to a ruin a great army for everyone else.

- Greenie

O_o....  Oddly enough I DO play eldar thank you, and have a great deal of success with them under their new codex playing a FLUFFY ulthwe' force.  And YES I do STILL field two squads of 'black' guardians in my army list. 

Now, on to the topic at hand.

Excuse me, but how was I condecending?  (I'm assuming by Condensing, you meant condecending?)  I expressed my  opinion based on the back story of the army and how I feel the army should be played. 

That's all it is, my opinion, and we ALL know what opinions are like, right?

I didn't specifically say BA were NOT a CC chapter.  In fact, according to the fluff BA are known as some of the best martial fighters in the IMPERIUM.  They train more in the ways of close combat than any other chapter from what I've read.

Speaking from a pure rules perspective, BA are one of the *Better* close combat armies in the game.  However they are not *The BEST* IMO.  That title goes to Khorne, or Black Templars IMO. 

Sure BA can put some serious close-combat wang on the table top in the form of jump pack troopers.  DC, Honor Gaurd, Veteran Assault Marines, and Assault Marines are all options available.  However, as I'm SURE you're well aware, fitting all these units into a workable list is rather tricky, if not impossible.  Honor Guard are expensive as is, but with all the extra kit you can buy them, they can be REALLY expensive if you field any squad of an appreciable size.  Plus the horribly overpriced veteran assault marines which NOBODY uses because under the present codex standard assault marines are far superior from a point-to-model perspective. 

Look at the list as a whole:  What are the basic troop choices available?  Tac Marines, and BA Scouts (one regular scout squad too, I should note).  Tactical marines being the best option as they have more resilience (3+ armor) and options,  (Transports) plus better range on their weaponry, etc.  Scouts do have their place however, but for general take all comers play, I'll always choose two 10 man tactical squads as my two required troop choices, with an 8 to 10 man scout squad as a third troops choice if points allow. 

Compare that to Khorne or Black Templars, both of which can have CC oriented standard troopers and I think my point is made. 

Sure you can build an effective close combat monster of a BA list.  That isn't the issue.
You can ALSO build a monster shooty BA list using the same codex!  People seem to forget that part.  BA has as much, if not more, firepower at their disposal than any other loyalist marine chapter.  Look at the Baal Predator in 4th edition for example.  It can now tank hunt reasonable well, as well as kill the hell out of infantry with it's assault cannon and twin heavy bolters.  Slap a pintle stormbolter onto it and "Say Hello to my Little Friend!" 

Why do Blood Angels have to fall inside of the cookie cutter "Loyalist berserker" framework?  Why can't they be another normal marine chapter with not-so-normal special rules backed up by cool and interesting fluff?  That's my main question to you Greenie Bloater.  Why not play them as a balanced shooty/assaulty army?  What harm does that cause?  Utilizing more options and maximizing the list can't be a bad thing now, can it?

So next time you decide to haul-off and sling insults at people who are merely discussing the army list he or she enjoys playing and expressing their PERSONAL views and opinions about how they play said list, please do yourself a favor and unplug your keyboard.  It'll help, trust me.

Let the discussion continue.

Take it easy.

-RT-

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 02/16/2007 2:23 AM

Posted By Moopy on 02/15/2007 11:57 PM
Not quite so. The trade off, is you MIGHT get some DC.

So I pay 15 pts and I MIGHT get a marine worth 15 pts or I MIGHT get a super-duper Black-With-RedX marine worth (by any reasonable appraisal) at least several pts more than 15 pts.  Wow, what a trade off.

SIGH... Yes, and YES you might fall foward on your regular squads making their heavy weapons uselss that turn.  You'll be playing that price even if you get NO DC that game, making long ranged fire support tricky.  Please remember all the costs.

It's been reduced somewhat by the new ordnance rules. I remember a friend of mine who bought Vindicators for his 3rd ed. Blood Angels since they suited the up-close style, then found himself unable to fire them 1/2 of the time.

Devastator squads are still dubious until the 4th ed. BA codex comes.

Posted By Breotan on 02/16/2007 10:31 AM

Posted By Moopy on 02/15/2007 11:57 PM
The trade off, is you MIGHT get some DC. Not a guarntee unless you take a Chappy.... but then again you pay for those extras. Without him, you MIGHT get some, you might not.

I've yet to see anyone play BA without a chaplain.  Players understand that they're going to have DC and plan accordingly.  Chaplain with jump pack is mandatory in BA the way the army is currently constructed.  DC happens and they get jump packs, then off they go.  Rest of army fits snugly into those turbo-charged rhinos (painted red, coincidently, to make them go faster).

I never play with a chaplin, and I've killed the BA chaplin every time he shows up.  They're not the end all. SHP give much more flexibility. It's not a bad choice but hardly mandatory.

whats the point of argueing this? All marines are good at shooting and good at cc. and have good armor. The deviant chapters are just more scaled to what people like. And if said person wants to shoot with a ba army so be it. I prefer to use them as a scalpel and clean house in cc but what right does that give me to tell someone else they cant shoot with um? NONE. When expressing your OPINION remenber just that, its YOUR OPINION. If i want a shooty nid army than thats what ill play. If i want a shooty templar army thats what i will play.
The shp is a great choice in a lightning claw termie squad because than your re rolling all to hit and all to wound. But the chaplain is an amazing killer with some blood crazy black guys that really should be berzerkers backing him up. There is no argument they are bloody but a bit more controlled than zerkers. At least as a BA i dont have to charge the closest enemy tank that i stand no chance of hurting. You see (almost) everything evens out in the end. Zerkers are amazing in cc but they lack in the brains department.