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I was just thinking about it, and I realized I never see any lists with SM attack bikes included, outside some of the new Ravenwing ones just now surfacing.

Why is this?  Attack bikes seem to me more survivable than speeders, almost as fast (with turbo boost), have a smaller profile, and the potential for more firepower (they also get to fire their bolters).  Am I missing some important practical step here?  It seems to me that a couple squads of two ABs with heavy bolters would make excellent kill 'em dead infanftry busters or excellent at sidling around to pop side and rear on light vehicles.

Given their move rate, you could even try coupling them with an assault squad: bikes mow down infantry in front of tank, Assault Squad goes for the meltabomb, or Assault Squad engages the infantry to give ABs freedom to get within 12" for multi-melta fun.

They could even last a while in a close combat to tie up numerous but weak units like LaTD -- 2 wounds and T5 is nothing to sneeze at.

Is this analysis off?   'Cause there have to be some reason for their absence from most lists...

-Adso

They were more popular in the old SM list, when they had a 2+ save and one wound, because they could bounce krak missiles and were comparable durable vs small arms. They also weren't significantly outgunned by speeders.

After the current SM codex came out, people saw the 3+ save and felt like they were less durable. They also saw how awesome the Assault Cannon is now and decided that for 30pts more, you can hardly go wrong with speeders.

Plus, despite having two wounds, they are T4 (for instakill purposes), and easily die vs. the plethora of missile launchers and las cannons used for anti-MEq. One lucky volley from, say a Predator Annihilator, and there goes at least 150 points (more if you mount multi meltas on 'em).

Also, don't forget the insane benefit of being able to completly ingnore terrain. If they were T5 instead of T4 so that they wern't instakilled, then they would actually become much more durable vs. Las and Krak..

Uh...
Sorry, my last post was sort of 'captain obvious from the land of trivialty!'. How about appending the fact that a T5 two wound critter could not be taken down with one shot from a Las, but would always require two. (never more, never less).

Although, since they have a Toughness at all, they do get cover saves..... That could make them much more survivable.

Attack bikes work. Its just that they don't have assault cannon.

Armour 10 is equal to T6, much more survivavble. Especially when you account that a successful hit may not 'wound' anyway. Also those weapons that hurt T6 usually bypass 3+ saves also.

What the attack bikes have going for them are turbo boost and cover saves. Also if one is hit it wont disruipt the squadrons formation unlike s stunned skimmer.

One of our local gamers takes two squadrons of three Attack Bikes, all with heavy bolters. He finds the 300pts very well spent.

I personally swear by them. With all the upgrades you can give speeders they get pricey and still go down from one shot. I use one unit of 3 HB attack bikes and occasionally use two. My friends hate them as even power armour starts to buckle from 9-18 HB shots each turn. I also use them in my BA army to charge and finish off small units that aren't worth using a dedicated assault unit to finish. The ability of bikes to fire (even heavy) weapons and charge into cc is great. My friends and I largely ignore the rules for instant death though so thats never been a problem. It seems to me though that attack bikes might be the only multiwound model that should be excempt from instant death. Its two marines on the bike and unless you somehow hit them broadside while they're flying past only one is going to die. GW could make them more attactive by giving an assault cannon option. I like them as they are, but they could be better and would be used more if there were one or two other weapon options. IMO thats why speeders are used so much, the ability to arm them for several different battlefield roles.

A lascannon or missile launcher kills an attack bike by destroying the bike itself.

i loved my attack bike squads in my ravenwing and they did indeed make great infantry killers....sadly gone now, all gone

Attackbikes are okay but I got disappointed when they changed the Squadron-size to 2-3 instead of 1-3.

Cant´s say I saw a good reason for it when stuff like Raveners, Vypers, ´Speeders etc. still are 1-3...

"My friends and I largely ignore the rules for instant death though so thats never been a problem." - one sentence explanation of how to use a homerule to fix a weaker unit.*

Thing about speeders is that they don't need any weapon options - tinned rump roast is good against EVERYTHING. I rank Attack Bikes with mortars - typically not worth it, but potentially devastating against one unit. (fire warriors - you might almost call them "Turok Carts" as modern Tau seems far more reliant on suits, Kroots and the rules for hitting skimmers moving at speed )

*actually, that's a good homerule in general when I think of it, since I'll bet it cuts through the monotony of power fists something fierce and avoids silliness such as a ten-wound greater Daemon of Nurgle going down to a single railgun shot.

Well, with a house rule to circumvent their chief weakness, then yes, Attack Bikes are a superior buy. But with the rules as is, that makes them inherently weak, especially in MEq (or armor) heavy environs, something that seems to only be increasing. That is a fine house rule though, especially if limited to vehicle-like figures.

Wight, how is the T6 GUO going down to single rail shots? In fact, all of the greater Daemons are T6, and Scabbithrax, the FW GUO you mention, is an insane T9. As I recall, a weapon strength has to be double the targets toughness to Insta Gib. Could be wrong though...

Its true that speeders have the leg up. I just can't stand something as or more pricey as an attack bike blowing up from one hit. 90% of the games I play are to the death/no turn limit and I like the extra durability of the bike. The house rule I use is that the only thing that causes instant death on anything are weapons with clear special rules e.g. force weapons, Abbadons blade... My mates 2 armies are Death Guard and Necrons. So theres usually a lack of heavy weapons that can do serious damage to the attack bikes. They boost up and rain death while my tacs slog forward into rapid fire range. Its rare that they don't make back their points and they soak of fire that would otherwise be directed at my tactical squads and death company.

The house rule we use is essentially to ignore the instant death rules except where there is a special rule that causes instant death e.g. force weapons. Most of my battles are to the death/no turn limit against my mates necrons or death guard. The bikes boost foward and rain death while my tac units slog into bolter range. They also soak up plenty of fire that would otherwise find my tactical squads and death company. Speeders do have the upper hand in straight gameplay. Its too bad as they're great models and a cool idea. Perhaps some extra weapon options or making their default toghness 5 due to 2 marines riding would boost their popularity and usefulness.

I can see how they would be useful with those sort of changes. The lack of any objective or purpose to the battle reduces the usefulness of the Speeders speed, and the removal of instant-death nerfs the main threats - Lascannons and Krak Missiles.

It sure must suck to play Guard in your group.

I always keep the instant death. Its the point behind all kinds of wargear so if they dont have that they die. Besides it keeps the games pace rolling along.

When in the right situation speeders are worth there weight in gold. My friend brought a couple last week in a game and they almost cleared 18 nid warriors by themselves. Very worth the points spent. Heavy bolters and assault canons are the bain of nid warriors.

wight_widow

i can see that in a normal marine force, before the new DA dex however they were gold to a ravenwing player.

rather you wanted to run them as tank poppers with the multi-melta or you wanted to go with horde killing which was my favorite role-9 attack bikes(i ran 3 squads of 3) within 24" have a ton of shooting power. and being ravenwing that jink save however poor did save me on more than one occasion from instant death.

 

Hmmm. I guess I can see why they're a generally inferior choice to 'speeders. Still, speeders are a higher priority target for most opponents, and are easier to kill with middling-str weapons. Sure, an instakill gun like a lascannon or krak missile will kill your attack bike deader than your speeder...but autocannons, scatterlasers, multilasers, and heavy bolters will take a wound off the bike and stun or down the speeder. This means your Attack Bikes can be used effectively in more situations -- there are fewer things to hide them from.

Also, as additions to bike squads, I can see them as being quite useful -- not only are they ablatively shielded by the normal bikers, but they can compliment the bikers mission. Fot example, I can see a 5 man bike squad with two flamers and an attack bike w/HB being a GREAT flanker unit to crush boyz/guardians/guardsmen.

Finally, there's the psych factor. Everyone sees and knows how to deal with Marine Speeders --but they might make the wrong target choice or a stupid manuver when they don't know how to reckon with the less common attck bike.

Are these good points to refute the 'speeders rule better' argument?

-Adso

@nyarly: my bad. I'm thinking of 3rd - their "Ravening Hordes" entry had them at T5, and I can't claim to have personally seen one turned into green mist by the aforementioned S10 weapon.