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2007/03/18 13:19:45
Subject: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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Consider, the ultras are the literalists who strictly interpret the codex, so the whole 10 and 5 thing fits for them. The Ultras are the ones with several high-tech manufacturing worlds under their control so they logically would have cheaper vehicles. Maybe GW just mislabled the new book?
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2007/03/18 13:27:01
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Yes. Also, the Dark Angels are the Unforgiven and one of the oldest chapters, highly dedicated to restoring and guarding their honour.
It would make sense for DA to have Honour Guard Veterans. ...I'm sure they fought Tyranids at some point along the line too...
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2007/03/18 13:45:35
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Been Around the Block
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I had the same reaction. Couldn't for the life of me figure out why they did this with the DAs instead.
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2007/03/18 14:39:31
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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[DCM]
The Main Man
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My biggest problem with the 5 and 10 rule from a fluff standpoint, is that it is pretty much totally unrealistic, even for an army like the Ultramarines. The reason being, it assumes that in every battle, the marines are operating at full strengh. As soon as marines initiate a campaign on a planet, they are going to take casualties, and squads are going to drop below the perfect 5 and 10 man versions. The replacements will come eventually, but depending on the location and the logistics, the marines may be fighting understrength for the remainder of the campaign. There's currently no way to represent this. Making it so that marines always deploy in perfect 5 or 10 man squads, or they don't deploy at all, is pretty ridiculous. It's not like the commander would be like: Hey, 10-man squad Delta just lost a man. We're expecting a huge attack, but since you only have 9 guys, four of you can sit this one out, since we can't deploy a 9-man squad!
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2007/03/18 15:35:39
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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"It's not like the commander would be like: Hey, 10-man squad Delta just lost a man. We're expecting a huge attack, but since you only have 9 guys, four of you can sit this one out, since we can't deploy a 9-man squad!" Of course not. They would just execute the remaining 4 for failing to protect their battle brother But yeah, I always felt the same way.
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2007/03/18 18:44:58
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Plastictrees
Amongst the Stars, In the Night
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But guys, it's unfluffy to field anything but five or ten man squads, you evil powergaming rules lawyering dakkites! *stomps feet*
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2007/03/18 20:27:06
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Moast space marine chapters are larger than they ought to be. so you have 1000 marines, that not includes a lot of personnel like vehicle crews and command characters already. This just shows that each company has marines to spare. They apply the codex as each company may not deploy more than 100 marines. As they normally operate directly from the Rock it makes sense for them to top up regularly.
As for the no Veterans rule. It makes sense because they have enough terminator armour for everyone who is entitled to wear it. In the background the only other chapter a glut on terminator armour suits are the Salamanders. Everyone else, including the Ultras are short and have to use Veteran squads to make up the firast company numbers. I cannot see either the Sallies of the Dark angels giving their precious suits away.
What they should have done is allowed one tactical squad not chosen as a compulsory choice to be remnants allowing a special weapon if the squad numbers 3-9 marines with a special weapon, a heavy weapon if 6+ strong and Veteran sergeant is optional. A three man tactical squad and no veteran makes sense this way as squads are reformed to make up the numbers
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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2007/03/19 01:33:40
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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The Rock certainly doesn't follow every Company whenever it deploys. I doubt even the DA have 10 Rocks to follow every deployment.
The rule only makes sense for the first battle of a deployment. It might make some sense when teleporting or drop-podding. For an infantry and track based list, it's silly.
Aren't most of the support personnel like vehicle crews Servitors anyway?
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2007/03/21 22:35:12
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
United States of England
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Yes, but the 5-10 man rule is only for deployment. If a battle brother should fall during an engagement then the squad can still operate with the remaining warriors!
I don't see how this is such a big deal, it just means that the Dark Angles appear prepared for the coming battle and are never caught with their pants down. Which is in keeping with the DA chapter character.
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Man down, Man down.... |
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2007/03/22 00:07:45
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Realism??? Ummm, I won't touch that one.
On a lighter note, it looks like the DA's secret is out as they can ally with anyone. I'm thinking an Inquistor w/ the Emperor's Tarot. Really get the Ravenwing to hit first.
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No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. |
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2007/03/22 00:18:51
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Dakka Veteran
NJ
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Dark Angles and are never caught with their pants down. Thanks to their robes.... /puke
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2007/03/22 02:18:21
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Dakka Veteran
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I definately agree. The 5/10 rule belongs with the Ultramarines, not the Dark Angels. It does not belong, however, with all marine chapters.
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Man, that's the joy of Anime! To revel in the complete and utter wastefullness of making an unstoppable nuclear-powered combat andriod in the shape of a cute little girl, who has the ability to fall in love and wears an enormous bow in her hair. |
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2007/03/22 02:44:51
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Lethal Lhamean
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More cripple for the roid monkeys..
the 5-10 thing is very ultra though, I wonder if someone thought of that back at the C:SM and couldn't get it in so put it in here.
I also think it fits GW fluff of marines well, in the sense they are so rule bound and superstitious that they would sit out 4 guys. (Obviously not applying to space wolves etc.. )
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2007/03/23 13:20:30
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Maple Valley, Washington, Holy Terra
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Posted By Asmodai on 03/19/2007 6:33 AM Aren't most of the support personnel like vehicle crews Servitors anyway? God-Emperor knows. One books says tech-marines are crew, one book says some sort of junior tech-marines, one books says servitors, one book says reserve company marines, one book says chapter serfs...
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"Calgar hates Tyranids."
Your #1 Fan |
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2007/03/23 14:24:26
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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Probably varies by chapter. I could swear I read once that it was a combination of crippled marines turned into servitors (basically the guys who aren't cool enough to be dreadnaughts) and marine washouts.
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2007/03/23 14:25:57
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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Posted By Sarigar on 03/22/2007 5:07 AM Realism??? Ummm, I won't touch that one. On a lighter note, it looks like the DA's secret is out as they can ally with anyone. I'm thinking an Inquistor w/ the Emperor's Tarot. Really get the Ravenwing to hit first. seriously? I wish GW would make up their minds on that bit of fluff/rules.
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2007/03/23 15:52:25
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 03/23/2007 7:24 PM Probably varies by chapter. I could swear I read once that it was a combination of crippled marines turned into servitors (basically the guys who aren't cool enough to be dreadnaughts) and marine washouts. Do you really want Panic Boy driving the Land Raider though? It might very by vehicle too. Landspeeders are clearly piloted by Marines. The Vindicator hand-waving dude is a Marine, the Land Raider Crusader gunner is a Tech-Marine.
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2007/03/24 13:51:03
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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What you have to remember is that there is a lot more to a chapter than the "codex" company listing. All Librarians and their staff are technically not included in the 1000 Marine total. Neither are Marines assigned to the motor pool or the crew of the chapter's various space ships. The Chapter's Headquarters, Dreadnaughts, Techmarines, Apothecaries, etc. are also not counted yet they are all Space Marines. Methinks there's a whole lot of number fudging going on.
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2007/03/24 18:27:37
Subject: RE: DA codex, would it work better for the Ultras?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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They're limited to "1000 Marines" in the same way that the Ecclesiarchs can't have any "Men Under Arms" so have a couple million Battle Sisters instead.
Military organizations in 40K have always been quite adept at twisting tactical doctrines so that they can ignore the limitations. Yet another reason why the 5/10 squads are so silly.
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