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Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine





Uh oh. I noticed this on BwBs news page:

20 March

  • We have voluntarily complied with Games Workshop's request for removal of IP protected images of box set items, books etc. (finished goods) from our website. We encourage other internet retailers who are doing the same thing, to also voluntarily remove IP protected images from their websites.
  • We are also in discussion with Games Workshop on a variety of different issues pertaining to the sale and use of their products by Battlewagon Bits. We will keep everyone posted on the ongoing discussions between BwB and GW.

Looks like the lawyers are begninng their assault. If they were to close BwB, that would be a shame. I've had nothing but good results with them.



Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. 
   
Made in us
Plastictrees



Amongst the Stars, In the Night

I'd really hate for BWBitz to close, but if they do, I'll be laughing my arse off at all the GW sockpuppets that justified GW's craptacular kits and price hikes vis a vis "yew can get it for cheep threw BWBitz!". Not if GW puts their "competition" out of business you can't! Anyhow, this sounds like more typical GW anti-competitive thuggery. Yay predatory capitalism!

OT Zone: A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villany
The Loyal Slave learns to Love the Lash! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





whidbey

Yeah ok i can see them getting upset over their pictures. they shouldn't ever have been used but I am curious what the other issues are.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




funny thing is, BWBitz doesn't get any more of a discount than any other retailer, so why should they be solo'd out for this? quite frankly who cares how they break down their kits.. if at the end of the day, GW makes the reailer profit from them, it should be a done deal.. personally i have tons of bitz and have not used the services, but I also dont' see a reason for the focus either..
   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






That would suck. I've had great experiences ordering from them. It saved my a couple hundred bucks on my Imperial Guard army to get the kneeling legs and so on for my heavy weapons troops.

Hopefully they can work things out.
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





Almost any retailer has an issue with someone breaking down packaged items into pieces and selling them off. A lot of different products even have this listed on the package.

GW has held everyone else accountable for images of the product, so why wouldn't BWBitz be accountable?

And as for breaking down box sets, there is always ebay and the local group. You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

Awesome.  Totally awesome.

~adds more chum to the water~


DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++

Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k.                                                                                                       Rule #1
- BBAP

 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

I hope GW legal cant get a grip around BWB.

It would be nice for others such as BWB to spring up and make the secondary market a bigger thing. Its a much needed service.

I am obviously not a lawyer, but am having troubles seeing how shops like BWB should be under the scrutiny of GW legal. They already made their purchase from GW for the intent of profitable resale, just like anyone else selling GW products, or any products for that matter.


   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






I don't think anything will come of them breaking down the boxes and selling the bitz.

the IP infringement is totally just though. Most everyone here remembers when all the other companies had to remove GW's imagery from their site, BW Bitz just got away with it for longer than most.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



AJCarrington

Not to stir the pot or anything, but couldn't they get around this by simply taking pictures of the items in question?  I appreciate that this would be a LOT of work, especially on the bits end, but then they wouldn't be using GW IP (I think...)

AJC
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Posted By AJCarrington on 03/21/2007 9:19 AM
Not to stir the pot or anything, but couldn't they get around this by simply taking pictures of the items in question?  I appreciate that this would be a LOT of work, especially on the bits end, but then they wouldn't be using GW IP (I think...)

AJC
Actually, they do take pictures of all the bits they are selling already. The real question is if they can take pictures of the boxed sets... or maybe have a shoutout for pictures of painted squads of the particular boxed sets.

*sigh* every time GW legal goes to work, it makes me want to learn L334 hacking skills to bombard their legal IPs with spam. Failing that, if every member of every 40k, WHFB, etc. forum sent an email in protest, they might get the picture... but, that doesn't happen.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




It amuses me that what GW-Legal seems to have a problem with is the box front art, not the actual bit pictures.  My local gaming store displays the box fronts all the time, cleverly enough by putting them up on the shelf.  That is the intent of the box art, to draw people in, and advertise...

I can't wait till next year when everything not sold by GW comes in a plain box, with a text only label describing the contents, and GW stores or online is the only place to get the full color box art...

   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Meh, the supposed IP infringement seems shaky. But most places cave, so it works. After all, even if they don't sue, they can just cut you off. And what is a retailer with no supply?

Can you imagine if Ford or HP was this ridiculous? You cannot show pictures of our muffler! We will go after anyone selling our monitors online!

-James
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United States of England

Well if BWB is going out of business, I need to get over there and buy buy buy before that happens!!!!!!!

Man down, Man down.... 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Reading, UK

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

No they’re not.    

They are an ok buy.  The only look good compared to GW’s wild prices for the separate items.

 

Compared to them alone, then yes, they’re cheap.  A bit like how compared to Peter North’s, my dick looks small.

   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

rofl

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Posted By Bombot on 03/21/2007 9:53 AM

 

A bit like how compared to Peter North’s, my dick looks small.


That's funny. It doesn't feel small.

I mean look.


DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Up your nose with a rubber hose.

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
GW has held everyone else accountable for images of the product, so why wouldn't BWBitz be accountable?
Umm, right. I think we all agree on that point. Even though it's a stupid rule, BWBits isn't exempt.
And as for breaking down box sets, there is always ebay and the local group. You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

Now that's where you lost me. Bartertown, eBay, local groups, etc. don't even come close to filling the need that BWBits and Co. have. Maybe if you've got a lot of time on your hands, or aren't much of a customizer or converter, those options will suit you. But try for example, kitting yor entire Marine army with MK IV helmets and tabards. Without BWBits and the like, it just wouldn't be practical. These types of stores make the hobby more enjoyable for the modelers among us, and why anyone would want to get in the way of that is beyond me.

The box sets are a good buy compared to what? There really isn't anything closely comparable on the market since GW insists that you use official GW parts. I suppose they're an ok buy for those people who want to put together an army easily, but for anyone who really wants to add some character to their army, relying on boxsets or even GW bitz order sprues for the parts they need is often cost prohibitive.      



"Don't have much use for a poop droid." - Iorek
"Elusive has a bloodhound like capacity for finding hugely ugly minis." - tortoise
 
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 7:51 AM
And as for breaking down box sets, there is always ebay and the local group. You can always find those parts out of kits from people that don't have them, so laugh all you want nyarlathotep667, still doesn't change the fact that the box sets are a good buy.

I hate the agruement that you can always "trade for the bitz you need".  This is a terrible arguement, since the most desirable bitz are the ones everyone uses!  Here's a few examples:

1.  Say you need a pair of terminator legs - Unfortunately, the box of terminators only gives you enough parts to build a min size squad, with no spare legs... I challenge you to find someone who hasn't used their Terminator legs.  (Same can be said about the pre-Dark Angels sprue assault cannon).

2.  Tau plasma rifles.  Since these come only one to a crisis suit...  and -everyone- uses them to combat the glut of 3+sv, these are near impossible to trade for.

3.  How about Necron scarab swarms?  Nobody wants to give these up.  They are hard to get normally, and they're fantastic in the game.

To say that a service like BWB is unneccessary is very short-sighted of you.

   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





Not saying it is unnecessary. I like it and order from it. Makes it easier to get a hold of those parts for my pre-heresy force.
Most of which I have put together by trading people part for parts or buying up leftovers from people on ebay.

I AM saying it is not necessary to make certain box sets still not a bargain or a good buy.

I would hate for the site to go away, but only time and GW can tell us if it will.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die. 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

The thing with the use of copywritten images has to do with fair use and licenses. When a store buys a box of Marines and puts them on the shelf, they own that copy of the box art work. The only own that copy, but it's still enough to legally put it on your shelf (or on ebay, I'm pretty sure), and then resell it. When you take their image, and place it on the web to sell other boxes, you're using what you don't own: the license to use their IP as an online advertisment. What's unique about GW is that they're one of the few companies vertically integrated (they make, market, wholesale, and sell the product resale), so they actually want to discourage certain sales of their product. Even so, they own the IP, and they can restrict it's usage as they see fit.

As for breaking down a product and reselling it, that's not restricted by property laws. You can sell what you own, and if you own a pile of bitz, you can sell them as you see fit. What GW can chose to do is simply stuff selling them boxes at the retailer discount. It's a contract dispute (i"m guessing the contract to buy GW stuff is pretty extensive).

Don't get me wrong, GW's protection of it's IP is at times overzealous, and they certainly dont' shy from litigating. But if you think what they do to people who use their pictures is harsh, you should see the settlements for figure counterfeiting: $4000 in damages, plus $50,000 in legal fees and costs. (it's Games Workshop v. Beale, if you're curious). The district court actually reduced the proposed legal fees down from $150k in fees and costs (and GW itself claims to have spent over $250k). This represents over 500 hours of work to stop a guy from duping minis in his basement, and collected in the end only $4000 of actual damages. Of course, the guy in question was being really shady, beyond counterfeiting.

   
Made in us
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Up your nose with a rubber hose.

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 10:33 AM
Not saying it is unnecessary. I like it and order from it. Makes it easier to get a hold of those parts for my pre-heresy force.
Most of which I have put together by trading people part for parts or buying up leftovers from people on ebay.

I AM saying it is not necessary to make certain box sets still not a bargain or a good buy.

I would hate for the site to go away, but only time and GW can tell us if it will.
I gotcha. Personally, I don't understand why BWBits sells the boxsets. Probably want to be a "one stop shopping" sort of store.
Posted By Polonius on 03/21/2007 10:57 AM
The thing with the use of copywritten images has to do with fair use and licenses. When a store buys a box of Marines and puts them on the shelf, they own that copy of the box art work. The only own that copy, but it's still enough to legally put it on your shelf (or on ebay, I'm pretty sure), and then resell it. When you take their image, and place it on the web to sell other boxes, you're using what you don't own: the license to use their IP as an online advertisment.
Now I understand. Makes sense. Thanks for that.
As for breaking down a product and reselling it, that's not restricted by property laws. You can sell what you own, and if you own a pile of bitz, you can sell them as you see fit. What GW can chose to do is simply stuff selling them boxes at the retailer discount. It's a contract dispute (i"m guessing the contract to buy GW stuff is pretty extensive).

Exactly what I thought.

You know, even if GW decided to take away their retailer discount, I don't think it'd be a big deal to the customer if the bitz stores had to raise prices to offset their losses. Most of us use aren't using BWBits, etc. to buy complete kits at a discount., but rather to buy specific parts without having to buy the whole kit or sprue.



"Don't have much use for a poop droid." - Iorek
"Elusive has a bloodhound like capacity for finding hugely ugly minis." - tortoise
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





Wilmington DE

What would happen if BWB chose to purchase their boxed sets from a 2nd or 3rd party distributor (The Warstore, Alliance Games, etc)? I mean, they'd lose some of the discount and would have to mark their bits up some, but it would be doable...

Most likely though, they're going to fold like a card table.

Guinness: for those who are men of the cloth and football fans, but not necessarily in that order.

I think the lesson here is the best way to enjoy GW's games is to not use any of their rules.--Crimson Devil 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Don't get me wrong, GW's protection of it's IP is at times overzealous, and they certainly dont' shy from litigating. But if you think what they do to people who use their pictures is harsh, you should see the settlements for figure counterfeiting: $4000 in damages, plus $50,000 in legal fees and costs. (it's Games Workshop v. Beale, if you're curious).


Hrm... I can't seem to find that case. I don't suppose you can give its full reference or provide a link?

I realize it's been several years since my microeconomics class in college, and I have never taken macroecon... but I'm having a hard time grasping how reduced online sales (the logical extension of limiting availability of GW IP in Box Art) helps GW's already mediocre sales performance. I realize that they market and sell their own product, as well as have brick & mortar stores... but since those stores need a sizeable economic base to stay open, many of us who enjoy the hobby MUST go to online sources. (I just checked: the nearest official GW store is over 700 miles away in St. Louis, and the nearest independent retailer is 60 miles away... given the price of gas, that means fewer trips & less spur of the moment purchases) I understand the whole competitive edge of not having a storefront to maintain, but when the chips fall, it seems vital to expand the hobby to a point where GW can flourish--via online sales and face-to-face sales.

As noted in another forum, the problem is that there are NO sales offered from GW, B&M or Online. The best thing they've got are the army building cards now... but they really don't save you that much.

Anyway... I'll keep my fingers crossed that BWBits can use negotiation successfully with GW to continue to operate as they have been. I know BWBits has resurged my interest in the game.. and thus has led to more purchases of actual box sets as well as bits (which still = profit for GW).

Cheers
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Beale is a district court case, and lexis had it, but no cites to a reporter. It's lexis cite is 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 22525, from the western division of the western district of Missouri. Legally, it's only interesting in it's discussion of legal fees.

As for the justification of banning online sales, the stated goal was to encourage Brick and Mortar stores across the board. Basically, instead of ordering from The WarStore, you'd buy from the FLGS down the street. Realistically, they want you to buy their stuff online from GW, and thus make more profits themselves.

As for discounting compared to sales, the basic goal of econ is to maximise the supply demand curve. GW wants to make the most profit, and keep the most market share. Selling more units, but making less money (at 20% off) might not be in their best long term interest. Compare it to the dot-com bubble: too many sites failed to make money while trying to build market share, while the successfule companies lasted longer because they were profitable.

Now, it appears that the numbers show that GW is ailing (lower profits, reduced overall sales), so it's possible they are pricing themselves out of the market. Time will tell, but I'm guessing the affect has been minimal, worldwide.

I'd bet a fair amount of money that somebody looked at GW five or ten years ago, and realized that they had a captive audience buying a product, and realized that they're product was underpriced. Link that with a change in both core rule sets that encourages more models, and you've got a recipe for at least short term success.

One question that only GW has the answer to is: What percentage of overall sales are by hardcore GW gamers, and what percentage are by casual modellers, collectors, etc? I'm guessing the amount of product purchased by hardcore gamers like us is smaller than we think, and they sell a fair amount of kits to folks who buy one off blisters or tanks. I clearly could be wrong, but you know GW has (or should have) those numbers.

If BWB buys their stuff from a distributor, I don't know what the discount is, but I'm pretty sure they can resell as they like. Where it gets interesting is what sort of contract the distributor has with GW, and what the terms are.

From what I've heard, don't retailers get a 45% discout? What do you get through a distributor? you can get 20% through the War Store, so the price increase of the bits can't be too huge. A 50% increase in the cost of raw materials (the boxes they cannibaliae) probobly won't translate immediatly into a 50% increase in bitz prices, but probobly pretty damn near it.

   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






"One question that only GW has the answer to is: What percentage of overall sales are by hardcore GW gamers, and what percentage are by casual modellers, collectors, etc? I'm guessing the amount of product purchased by hardcore gamers like us is smaller than we think, and they sell a fair amount of kits to folks who buy one off blisters or tanks. I clearly could be wrong, but you know GW has (or should have) those numbers."


Good question. My intuition suggests the opposite. There are a lot of historical model manufacturers that make more detailed models for less cost. I imagine that they would take up most of the 'casual' one-off market.

The gravy may be in people buying multiples of the same boxed set for an army - 6 boxes of Cadians for an IG army for instance.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






I

ts my understanding that BWBits was a rogue company that did not buy from Games Workshop. Now they officially are, and can now sell bitz without any hassle, so everything seems to be resolved.

 

 


.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Posted By Asmodai on 03/21/2007 12:21 PM


Good question. My intuition suggests the opposite. There are a lot of historical model manufacturers that make more detailed models for less cost. I imagine that they would take up most of the 'casual' one-off market.

The gravy may be in people buying multiples of the same boxed set for an army - 6 boxes of Cadians for an IG army for instance.

That's my first thought as well.  Before I played GW games, I really had little use for their models.  I'd like to get that info though, as it would probobly answer a lot of questions.
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




In your house, rummaging through your underwear drawer

Posted By Bombot on 03/21/2007 9:53 AM  

Compared to them alone, then yes, they’re cheap.  A bit like how compared to Peter North’s, my dick looks small.

I haven't shot coke through my nose in a long while, Bombot.  Kudos.

Although admitting that you've sized up Petey's Pole is kind of disturbing, but I digress. 

 

The BWB thing seems kind of iffy.  Claiming your dog as a dependent on your income taxes iffy.  But I'm no lawyer.  But as much as I hate to say it, you don't accept money orders, you get burned.


"Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow"~Oscar Wilde 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




South Pasadena

@Jester, what does your drug habit have to do with Bombot?

Darrian

 
   
 
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