Close combat upgrades for chaos chosen terminator aspiring champions.

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**Redbeard**

I've got a question about the cost to give an aspiring terminator champion an upgraded close combat weapon.

Here are some relevant passages:

Page 24: "Character: Chosen in power armour or terminator armour can be further upgraded to Aspiring Champions at +10 points each. Chosen Aspiring Champions have access to the Chaos Armoury, but may not choose ranged weapons from the list opposite."

Page 25: "Options: Any number of Chosen in Power Armour can be upgraded to Terminators at +19 points each. Any model upgraded in this way will replace his normal weapons with a power weapon and combi-bolter. The power weapon may be upgraded to a Power Fist for +5 pts, a lightning claw for +5 pts or a chainfist for +8pts...."

Page 21: "Options: This lists the different weapons and equipment options for the unit and any additional points cost for taking these options. If a squad is allowed to have models with upgrades, then these must be given to ordinary team members, not the character."

Ok, so, I have my chaos terminator aspiring champion and I want him to trade in his power sword for a lightning claw. Does he count as "any model upgraded in this way" - as per the chosen entry, and spend 5 points for the upgrade, or is he required to buy it for 15 from the armoury?

It seems like these two rules cannot both be applied, as the champion is both a character, and 'any model'.

Further confusing is the rule on page 24, which states that chosen aspiring champions cannot be given ranged weapon upgrades from the chosen entry. Since it specifies ranged weapon upgrades, it would seem to indicate that the CC upgrades are legal.

**Boss Salvage**

I see your thinking behind quote #1 allowing close combat weapons, but I really can't help with ruling which way is right in this case. I personally pay the armory costs - 15 points for the l.claw, not 5 - and don't really give it a second thought.

- Boss Salvage

**Redbeard**

But why is that way right? You didn't answer the question, you just said what you do. BUt I've posted this on a number of forums now, and other people do it the other way.

**Boss Salvage**

No way is my way the right way, I actually noted that it isn't official in the least! I go the route of least resistance, because that's the way I interpret the hazy character rules across codecii and because my opponent - if they cared to read my list, which doesn't happen much, as they trust me - isn't possibly being 'hurt' by me possibly spending 10 points too much.

So yes, Mr. Beard, I was only able to offer you how I play it, as I don't think there is an answer. Please kick this aside with a grain of salt and go with the way the other people play it if you like, I know that 10 points is big business in a chaos list especially.

- Boss Salvage

**Flavius Infernus**

If a squad is allowed to have models with upgrades, then these must be given to ordinary team members, not the character."

This is the key clause. It overrides the "power weapon may be upgraded to..." sentence because it specifically excludes characters from the general squad upgrades. The specific exception trumps the general rule, and the aspiring champion pays armory prices for close combat weapon upgrades.

**dreddnott**

But you could make the whole squad Aspiring Champions - are Aspiring Champions actually characters?

**Ghaz**

... are Aspiring Champions actually characters?

Yes, just like a Veteran Sergeant is a character.

**beef**

But they are not IC so you would pay 5 points for the upgrade. Its like SW wolf gaurd, they are vets sergents but have access to the armoury. If it state they may take a weaponat 5 points why would you give the the same weapon from the wargear section for 15pts?

**Flavius Infernus**

Check your main rulebook, Beef. (Somewhere around p 51--I don't have my copy with me.) The section on "characters" defines two types of characters: independent characters and squad upgrade characters. Both are types of characters.

Since the chaos rule prohibits "characters" from taking squad upgrades, that includes aspiring champions (squad upgrade characters). They aren't like wolf guard battle leaders, who are in a weird rules position because their codex is outdated.

**Playa**

Hey,

"Chosen in power armour or terminator armour can be further upgraded to Aspiring Champions"

+++ Champs are here defined as Characters. IE, not 'ordinary team members'. +++

"Chosen in Power Armour can be upgraded to Terminators at +19 points each. Any model upgraded in this way..."

+++ Chosen are noted as being 'upgraded in this way', not Characters. +++

"upgrades...must be given to ordinary team members, not the character"

+++ Again, a distinction is made between Squaddies and Characters. +++

That distinction, for the last few editions, is cheap upgrades for Squaddies only.

I'll side with Sal on this one. It is better to err on the side of lactose intolerance.

You'll be a better player for it.

Playa