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Ok, so DA vs. Nidzillas came up in the post-Adepticon report thread.  I have played 2 games w/ my DA so far, one vs. Gaurd at 1500 pts that I won pretty handily, and I lost against a Nidzilla force at 1000 points that had 2 Carnifex's, a flying Tyrant, a unit of flying Warriors, 2 units of small stealers, and a unit of hormagaunts.

The above list notwithstanding, how can DA beat a Nidzilla list.  I don't want to hear "Just use C:SM, its better."  I play DA, need ideas to use w/ them.

My current thoughts are lots of combat squads with plasma guns and powerfists, maybe with the other combat squad with lascannons or plasma cannons (or not having the second squad at all), backed up by a vet squad with powerfists and melta guns.  A Pred. Destructor or two to take out any of the smaller bugs/warriors and to draw fire from the big bugs.

Tactics would be to split into combat squads and shoot the big bugs with the plasmas and lascannons, smaller bugs with preds, then when they get close, use the powerfists to pummel the bugs.  Here I see combat squads as a bonus as it give a lot of targets and if one unit is tied up, there are a lot more still freed up.

Do you think that would work and/or what are your ideas and tactics for using DA to beat a Nidzilla force.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

"Just use C:SM, its better."

Posted By Longshot on 04/10/2007 12:18 PM
"Just use C:SM, its better."

I was asking for that... :(

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Even at 1000, I have a hard time looking at 1 HT and 2 Carn and calling it NidZilla. That is like saying any list wth 2 tanks is Armored Company.

I've been doing some thinking myself about getting a DA list going, and Nidzilla has crossed my mind (though, honestly, I'm the only one in my group who has nids to play... so I guess it's a moot point).

My general idea has been 3 combat squads--2 with razorbacks or rhinos and one or two devastator squads, potentially with razorbacks. If you make a couple razorbacks have lascannons, then they've got the range and mobility necessary to plink away at the fexes. Venom Cannons are still dangerous, but usually not prolific in Nidzilla, from what i understand.

I use powerfists in a couple of combat squads, and power weapons in others. I'm not sold on 15pt plasmaguns and pistols, yet, so I usually kit out with flamers (they can't assault after disembarking from a moving vehicle anyway, and flamers help against little bugs like stealers and gaunts). Stat wise, 3 plasma gun shots should = 2 hits, and maybe 1 will wound... I may just come back later tonight and do the math breakdown for each weapon... that's always fun.

Devastator squads split in half are the way to go. by putting lascannons in the combat squads, you can throw other cheaper stuff in here--heavy bolters are a good all-around weapon, as are missile launchers. They're not very good at taking out carnifexes with carapace, but they'll work on warriors and other priority targets.

The advantage you've got is Nidzilla fexes are slower, and theoretically you can drive a razorback around a lot to keep it out of range of most big guns.

I like dreadnoughts too, especially with a heavy flamer. I wonder, however, if three minimal squads of assault cannon landspeeders wouldn't be better at throwing bullets at fexes. 12 potentially rending shots is nothing to sneeze at in a round of shooting... and they might just get glazed over in the fuss for the lascannons or razorbacks

The flying tryant is the really scary part. A command squad could take a bunch of power weapons and fists and survive a round against a carnifex, but the initiative of the tyrant makes assault brutal. I suppose all las/plas should go there first.

I dunno. It looks like the solution will be playing your army with the discipline of an orchestra director rather than a grunge metal guitarist in his garage.

Well, he had about 18 small guys and 2/3 to 3/4 of his points in bigger/medium guys, at 1000 points that's pretty tough (especially as I was expecting a horde army).  2 tanks in 1000 points could be less than 1/3 of his points.

Plus, if you read right below it, I was more curious about Nidzilla's in general, hence the "The above list notwithstanding..."

@Geddonight:

I am wary about using Speeders, Nids seem pretty good shots with all the twin-linked stuff, seems too easy to hit and destroy the speeders. I like the Razorback idea, using mobile Lascannons to stay ahead of him.  I don't think the flamers will ever get used if fighting a Nidzilla force.  If you want an assault weapon, wouldn't a meltagun be better?

I'm fairly inexperienced vs. Tyranids in general as they aren't a popular army round here. I'm relying on all you dakkites out there.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Take a greyknight grandmaster with either a pyscannon or powerfist/chain fist, mastercraft the str 6 force weapon and add a +4 invu save for taste.

He will be able to kill a TMC every player turn he is in CC.

But if you don't want to take a greyknight grandmaster go with a squad of termies 4 lighting claws 1 ac, azriel for the group 4+inv save, the deathwing grandmaster with 2 lighting claws to add a banner on the squad so everyone gets +1 attack. That squad will also be able to woop up any nid unit that gets close.

Hmmm... I like the Azrael plus Terminator idea.  I'm not sure on the LC as they'll have trouble wounding T6, but Azrael, Belial, and about 10 Termies could put a real dent in his plans as he will have little AP2 weapons...

Add some Tactical Squads and some Predators and I think that could stand a chance.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

tyranids can put a nasty combination of cheap low point troops and cheap low point 4 wound creatures together in a 1000p list. And the best model (flying hive tyrant) is also a scoring unit!..

very hard to kill with 1000p marines...

Try to pick the best cheap shooty units the DA codex can provide. Dont spend to much for close combat units because tyranids can field much better (cheaper) units for a 1000p army. Dont get a big lord that can be killed in one blow.. I think my list would be about....

master of the ravenwing land speeder 205P
predator with twin linked lasc and heavy bolters... 130P
predator with twin linked lasc and heavy bolters... 130P

5men tac squad (about 90p??) lascannon 15p plasmagun 10p = 115
5men tac squad (about 90p??) lascannon 15p plasmagun 10p = 115

the rest of the points can be spend on one heavy shooty troops in a razorback with a powerfist.. but I also like the 3 individual multi melta landspeeders ....

Two Devastator squads.

Either both with 4 Lascannons a pop, or one with 4 Lascannons & one with 4 Missile Launchers. Combat squad them out. Honestly it's better to go for the Lascannons since it's so much more worth it over the ML, especially against Nidzilla, but you could scrape by with the ML's in one squad.

IF you use Tactical as troops, give them a plasma/melta and a PF sarge and maybe a rhino, run them up and assault the crap out of them after shooting.

Reguardless, your HQ should be the Master of Ravenwing on a Speeder, because he's actually good.

Extra points maybe go into an assault squad or speeders.

Just make sure you deploy your static firebase really well and start shooting, a lot. And pray that the Emperor blesses you for using substandard Marines.

At 1000 pts I think a good nidzilla list would have to basically smash his own models with a hammer and rule them destroyed to lose to a dark angels list.

Flyrant - 170ish
Walkrant - 150ish
2 x elite fexes - 226
2 x 8 spinegaunts - 80p
Gunfex 168
Gunfex 168

Honestly not sure there's a 1500 pt DA list that wouldn't have a hard game against 1000p of nidz

Tonight, when I'm off work I'll try making a 1000 pt, 1500 pt, and 1750 pt list using DA for taking on Nidzillas for review/theoryhammer.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I haven't played against 'nids a whole lot in low point games,but they seem like they'd really tough in 500-1000 point games.  They can get plenty of big stuff out that's hard to wound,but can still field a ton of weenies to help compensate.

Here's my idea for a 1500 point 'nid killer DA

Belial-130 pts.

Termie Squad(Assault Cannon,Deathwing Banner)-270

Termie Squad(Assault Cannon)-245

10-man Devy(4xPlasma Cannons)-265

10-man Devy(2xPlasma Cannons,2x H.Bolters)-245

Land Raider Crusader-250

All this=1405

With the last 95,you could do Predator Destructer(AC/H.B. sponsons)or a Whirlwind for a weenie killing vehicle.  Or,you could a 5-man Combat squad w/ a flamer as a screening unit for one of your Devy CS's.  You could also do a 5-man scout squad with 3 Sniper Rifles to pick away at the 'zillas and/or screen a Devy.  If your opponent is nice and will let you be 5 points over,you could throw in a Landspeeder Tornado or a generic Chaplain.  The Chaplain would have a hard time wounding the 'zillas,but the ability to re-roll misses in CC with Litanies of Hate could be worth it.

Against zilla 'nids,I'd definately go with mostly Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Termies.  The Thunder Hammer will wound T-6 on a 2+.  Plus,if you wound a 'zilla with a TH,but don't kill it that round(a definate possibility when the squad suffers some losses),it will be going on Initiative 1 the next combat round,same as you.  From what I remember,practically the entire 'nid army has you beaten on initiative anyway,so you're not losing much by having to go at Initiative 1.  The Storm Shield's 4+ Invulnerable in CC will also help the survivablity of the Termies against the monstrous creatures.

If you get the option,let him have the first turn.

I'd split the Devy's into combat squads.  The reason for Plasma Cannons instead of Lascannons is twofold.  PC's are 10 points cheaper a pop,still penetrate the 'zilla's armor saves,and are still wounding T6 on 3+(2+for LC's),which are good odds.  They also use a blast template,meaning they'll also be effective if/when the 'nids weenies start getting close enough that you need to concentrate fire on them for a turn or two. 

Stick the Termies with the DW banner and Belial(and the Chaplain if you chose to take him) into the Crusader.  Stick it as far forward in you deploy zone as you can during set-up.  Turn one,send it 12" accross the board,disembark the Termies,and send them crashing into the first 'zilla you see.  Yeah,he might send a 'zilla or two to assault the Crusader his next turn,but if you moved over 6",he needs 6's to hit it and if he's playing 'zilla 'nids,they won't be stacked for CC.  Hopefully,it'll survive,and get to unload it's weapons the next turn.  If nothing else,it stopped them shooting at your Devy's for a turn. 

Unless your opponent forced you to take the first turn,he should have probably already sent any gaunts,'stealers,or whatever charging down your Devy's,meaning he's going to have a hard time turning them around and getting them back to help out his 'zillas.  Send that first Termy squad walking down the line towards 'zilla after 'zilla.  Belial and co WILL most likely get wiped out,but they will hopefully cause so much havoc in the 'nid deploy zone and take down enough 'zilla's that the rest of the army will be able to drop the weenies and what's left of the 'zillas. 

 

Posted By Longshot on 04/10/2007 4:19 PM
At 1000 pts I think a good nidzilla list would have to basically smash his own models with a hammer and rule them destroyed to lose to a dark angels list.

Flyrant - 170ish
Walkrant - 150ish
2 x elite fexes - 226
2 x 8 spinegaunts - 80p
Gunfex 168
Gunfex 168

Honestly not sure there's a 1500 pt DA list that wouldn't have a hard game against 1000p of nidz

Now That is a 1000pt Nidzilla army.

Sorry, no elite fexes under 1500 points.

Posted By shogun on 04/10/2007 3:28 PM

Dont get a big lord that can be killed in one blow.. I think my list would be about....

master of the ravenwing land speeder 205P

No offense to the poster, but am I the only one who found this statement to be incredibly funny?

Posted By blue loki on 04/11/2007 5:26 AM

Posted By shogun on 04/10/2007 3:28 PM

Dont get a big lord that can be killed in one blow.. I think my list would be about....

master of the ravenwing land speeder 205P

No offense to the poster, but am I the only one who found this statement to be incredibly funny?

I think he meant in close combat, but that is funny.  I didn't get my lists finished last night...   Tonight, I swear....

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By ForceVoid on 04/11/2007 4:20 AM
Sorry, no elite fexes under 1500 points.

True, but the intent is there.

Drop one, and put one in a HS slot.

Okay, a little late, but here's those cost figurings for you:
<table width="576" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 434pt;"> <col width="146" style="width: 110pt;"></col> <col width="40" style="width: 30pt;"></col> <col width="48" span="3" style="width: 36pt;"></col> <col width="44" style="width: 33pt;"></col> <col width="9" style="width: 7pt;"></col> <col width="49" span="3" style="width: 37pt;"></col> <col width="46" style="width: 35pt;"></col> <tbody> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td width="146" height="17" class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 110pt;"> </td> <td width="40" class="xl25" style="width: 30pt;">to Hit</td> <td width="96" colspan="2" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none; width: 72pt;">to Wound</td> <td width="92" colspan="2" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none; width: 69pt;">Fail Save</td> <td width="9" class="xl22" style="width: 7pt;"> </td> <td width="193" colspan="4" class="xl25" style="width: 146pt;">Carnifex Combos</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 6</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">Sv 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">Sv 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl22"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none;">T 6, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 6, 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7 2+</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="height: 12.75pt;">Bolter (one shot)</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="3.7037037037037035E-2" x:fmla="=B3*C3*E3">4%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1.8518518518518517E-2" x:fmla="=B3*C3*F3">2%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="3.7037037037037035E-2" x:fmla="=B3*D3*E3">4%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1.8518518518518517E-2" x:fmla="=B3*D3*F3">2%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Meltagun</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B4*C4*E4">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B4*C4*F4">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B4*D4*E4">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B4*D4*F4">44%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasm * (one shot)</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.5">50%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B5*C5*E5">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B5*C5*F5">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=B5*D5*E5">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=B5*D5*F5">33%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Missile Launcher</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.16666666666666666">17%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B6*C6*E6">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="9.2592592592592587E-2" x:fmla="=B6*C6*F6">9%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=B6*D6*E6">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="7.407407407407407E-2" x:fmla="=B6*D6*F6">7%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.66666666666666663">67%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*C7*E7">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*C7*F7">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*D7*E7">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=B7*D7*F7">56%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Razorback)</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.88888888888888884">89%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.83333333333333337">83%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="1">100%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*C8*E8">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*C8*F8">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*D8*E8">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407" x:fmla="=B8*D8*F8">74%</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center"> </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl23"> </td> <td align="center" colspan="4" class="xl35" style="border-left: medium none; border-right: 0.5pt solid black;">Chance to Wound</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" colspan="4" class="xl25">Points per Wound (rounded up)</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl22" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl24">Cost</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 6, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 6, 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 7, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-left: medium none;">T 7 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl22"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none;">T 6, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 6, 2+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7, 3+</td> <td align="center" class="xl25" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;">T 7 2+</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="height: 12.75pt;">Meltagun</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">10</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B12/C12">18</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B12/D12">18</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="22.5" x:fmla="=B12/E12">23</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="22.5" x:fmla="=B12/F12">23</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Pistol</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">15</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B13/C13">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B13/D13">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B13/E13">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B13/F13">45</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Gun</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">15</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B14/C14">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B14/D14">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B14/E14">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B14/F14">45</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl32" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Cannon (Tac)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">15</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B15/C15">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="33.75" x:fmla="=B15/D15">34</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B15/E15">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl31" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B15/F15">45</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Plasma Cannon (Dev)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">25</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.33333333333333331">33%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="56.25" x:fmla="=B16/C16">56</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="56.25" x:fmla="=B16/D16">56</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B16/E16">75</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B16/F16">75</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Missile Launcher (Dev)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">20</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="9.2592592592592587E-2">9%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.44444444444444442">44%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="7.407407407407407E-2">7%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/C17">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/D17">216</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/E17">45</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B17/F17">270</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl33" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Tactical)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">20</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/C18">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/D18">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/E18">36</td> <td align="center" class="xl30" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B18/F18">36</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Dev)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">35</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.55555555555555558">56%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/C19">63</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/D19">63</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/E19">63</td> <td align="center" class="xl28" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="" x:fmla="=B19/F19">63</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl34" style="border-top: medium none; height: 12.75pt;">Lascannon (Razorback)</td> <td align="center" class="xl27" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="">30</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center" class="xl26" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="0.7407407407407407">74%</td> <td align="center"> </td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/C20">41</td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/D20">41</td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/E20">41</td> <td align="center" class="xl29" style="border-top: medium none; border-left: medium none;" x:num="40.5" x:fmla="=B20/F20">41</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Let me break it down--the "Points per Wound" is the important part. I couldn't think of a better artificial way to quantify bang for your buck. Simply translated--the lower the number, the better.

Additional note--I only did the calculations for one plasma gun shot. Really, it's points cost should be halved bc it's doing twice as much as it is now. I didn't know a good way to figure in "Get's Hot" so I left it out.

***Looks like Lascannons in Tactical Squads and on Razorbacks is the way to go, but put Plasma Cannons in combat Dev squads

I suppose you want plain jane rhinos to carry your other halves of the combat squads--razorbacks lose their long range edge if they ferry troop squads around. Barbed Stranglers on Gunfexes only have a 24" range (30" with walking) so you can keep them at arm's length for a round or two.

I wouldn't recommend the predators--too many points to lose from a dual-BS wielding Carnifex. Granted, it could almost take one down a round, but any venom cannon shaking will put it out of commission for a turn, so it's kinda moot. Razorbacks are cheaper and can be used to belt your plasma cannon dev squads out of trouble if need be

Drop one carnie, add tyrant guard to make up the diff. Still the same story, DA gets owned and moves to Tibet in shame.

Actually Tonrados can be effective if you use them appropriatley. Keep it hidden and use it to mop up stealers and gaunts. One round of shooting on a Stealer squad will earn it's cost. Team up two or three and go after any MC that are out of terrain. For the points of a Crusader I personally would opt to go with a Pred Ann. and a Razorb. with twin Las.

Well Ozymandius, you deserve our help for taking on the second most 'borken' list after Iron Warriors with the Sons of Jonson. The trouble is, exactly how.

I would be inclined to take a plethora of fist vet sgts. You have to take Vet sgts anyway, so use it as a sttrength and take plenty of powerfists. Six tactical squads, some five man, some ten man combat squads for a lascannon or two at the back. You pay more for fists I hear, but that is part of the price you pay.

I think your cost analysis is a bit off, becuase you aren't taking into account the cost of the squad/vehicle in question. For instance, your comparison of the tac lascannon versus dev version is flawed, because it is actually much cheaper per lascannon in the dev squads if you figure in the cost of the squad. Otherwise you have a very handy chart there.


You could take the chance of losing the model to gets hot, multiply that by the total cost of the model (PG+ 15 or so points) and create a psuedo cost of the plasma gun for cost analysis. Its a bit artificial but it gets you a ballpark idea. Or you could do what most people do and ignore over heat in the analysis but keep it mind when comparing results.

@ Geddonight: Wow, mathhammer does have its uses. I'll keep this in mind when I come up with my list tonight.

@Longshot: I guess your name sums up my chances.

@Lemartes: I'm afraid of using Tornadoes as they are now 100 points and will die far too easily from a BS or VC shot.

@Orlanth: Thanks for the encouragement! I'm thinking my list will be 3 Tac squads w/ fists, meltas, and lascannons, a dev squad w/ plasma cannons, and enough razorbacks to fill up the points. I'll post it tonight.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

EDIT:  Ok, changed my mind and thought I'd post a quick 1000 point DA force that I did (shh, don't tell my boss).

Master w/ Powerfist - 125 pts
2 x 10 - Tactical Squad w/ PF, Meltagun, Lascannon - 220 pts each
5 - Devastator Squad w/ 3 Plasma Cannons - 165 pts
3 x Razorbacks - 90 points each

Total: 1000

5 lascannons, 2 meltaguns, 3 plasma cannons, 3 powerfists (13 attacks total on charge).

EDIT2: Fixed some incorrect prices (don't have my DA codex here at work...).

Thoughts, comments?

Ok, 1000 points (now with correct points values):

Master w/ Thunderhammer, Combi-Melta - 140 points
2 x Tactical Squads w/ PF, Meltas, and Lascannons - 220 points each
1 Devastator Combat Squad w/ 3 Plasma Cannons - 165 points
3 x Razorbacks w/ TL-Lascannons - 80 points each

Total: 985
Last 15 points could be for plasma pistol on a Vet Sgt, stormbolters for Razorbacks, or extra armor on one Razorback.

Thats 5 lascannons (3 TL), 3 Plasma Cannons, 3 Meltas, 2 Powerfists (8 attacks on charge), and 1 ThunderHammer (5 attacks on charge).

And now for the add on to 1500:
985 above plus:

6 - Veteran Squad w/ 2 powerfists, 1 Thunderhammer, 2 meltas and 4 combat shields - 240 points
Devastator combat squad (add on to above) w/ Plasma Cannon - 100 points
2 x Razorbacks w/ TL-Lascannon - 80 points each

Total: 1500 points

7 Lascannons (5 TL), 4 Plasma Cannons, 5 Meltas, 4 Powerfists (16 attacks on charge), and 2 Thunderhammers (9 attacks on charge).

5 Tanks, 37 Models

Thoughts, comments?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Plasma Cannons are especially good against the Walking Tyrant with Tyrant Guard - doubles your wounding, on average.

Also, many Nidzilla players like to make an 'MC wall' and hide fast assaulters (stealers, raveners) behind it. Templates can now be placed *anywhere* over the target's base, so a PC can potentially tag 2 MCs and a Ravener in one shot.

But if the Raveners are out of sight, then they still cannot be taken as casaulties regardless of whether you hit them or not.

You can't also take casaulties from a whirllwind when the target is out of LOS!

Don't get dumb with raw, or raw gets dumb with you.

I have been running combat squads via when the rule came out. I have yet to lose a game with my foot sloggin marines. One you have so many bolters in your list and that is the bane of all AP 5 armour. This is what I would do,

 

Ten man tact unit las plasma and break it into two five man units. I normally dont put a las in my tact unit because of point crunch. I do put the las cannon into my vet unit with tank hunters,,, AV 14 is little better with str 10 then 9.  66 percent chance to hit with a 50 percent change to glance  and a 33 percent change to pen.

Ten man tact unit las plasma and break it into two five man units.

If you want more tact units as I run four five man tact unit and two five man scout units in my armour.

Heavy support is

Ten man Dev unit with four heavy bolter and break that into two five man units.

Two heavy bolters in each unit.

DO NOT GO WITH SIX MAN UNITS! dont listen to others on this point. A lot of people six man min/max the unit and thus the plasma gun becomes a wasted item in the unit until something gets close enough for you  to use it. You need to be focusing on his fast moving hormies with everything you got. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE TYRANT Flyer, let him chew on five man units all day.  Five man unit with just one upgrade is a waste of points for a Tyrant to chew on. Plus when he assaults and kill that five man unit. He now has to face the hole of your army rapid firing and everything else you got. 

Heavy bolter needs to focus on ranged fast moving units. Hormies, gens, raveners.

My last battle was with a nid play and his list was like this.

 

Two tyrants, flyer and walker.

Carny city.

2x 32 horm unit.

Turn one I finished off one horm unit and half the other. He never made it into hth via with his hormies. Next few turns I pumped the carnies dry until they got in assault range and dropped them with power fist. End of the game was one carny about to die and Hive Tyrant who would of got massed fire after he finished my tact unit. That game was two dead marines and his entire army.  He won his last two games with ease and I quote that. Im not saying im billy bad arsk, just that mass AP 5 and AP 4 woepon will get the job done. Few heavy weapons to drop anything else you need to drop.

 

Five man unit is just that, five and it also helps with comp. Being that you had a ten man unit and busted it into two. My point on the six vs five is that if the tyrant hits the six man unit. He is going to chew threw at least a lascannon and a plasma weopon and the unit if it has a vet. That is a lot of  points for a hth beast to clean up on. Now you let him have a five man base unit at what, 85 to 90 points. So he got his points back on two units......But his hth god is dead and your walking your troops around because they have nothing to do now. Being that they killed everything else before his hth god got to hth.

This is not a sit and shoot army either.  Recon net me around 3k points for walking to the other side while blasting his army to death. He was a very very exp Eldar player and new before the game started that it was over. That was back when I first started to test out this army.  Any time something hth god like attacks, they only get five men. What do they get in return, zillion bolters and plasma and melta and lascannon and oh heavy bolters and oh ya zillion more bolters.

 

I dont want to give the core of the army idea away, I just might see more of them on the boards. Best of luck with nids, just bolter and heavy bolter up. toss in a few other woepon for tact and vet units and you do fine.

Posted By davidson on 04/12/2007 7:31 PM
You can't also take casaulties from a whirllwind when the target is out of LOS!

Don't get dumb with raw, or raw gets dumb with you.

If you bothered to read the rules, you would find out that is not true.  Barrage weapons are specifically exempted from the line of sight requirement for removing casaulties.  Blast weapons are not.