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Unlike in fantasy, where every army has strengths and weaknesses, and a defined niche, 40K has some balance issues.
And I've figured out GW's plan to fix it!
GIVE EVERYTHING RENDING!
Think about it.
Space Marines have Rending. Blood Angels are getting it. Tyranids have it. Chaos have it. Eldar have it.
All we need are Rending lasguns and choppas to be rending and the game will be totally balanced. Rending makes other balancing considerations obsolete! You can do anything if you can rend. We can ALL have the fun of rolling buckets of dice and fishing out the sixes!Rending is the way of the future.
(Please note:This post may be entirely composed of sarcasm.)

Sorry, but that is only half of it.

First, give everything rending.

After that give everyone a 200 point tank that makes penetrating hits become glancing instead...

... and then came 5th edition, where they nerf rending...

No no no no. You've got it all wrong.

1. Give everyone rending.
2. Release new edition that makes rending even more powerful.
3. Give MEqs inv. saves.
4. Give fast Attack slots inv. saves
5. Allow Tyranids, Eldar and Chaos to take twice as many FA units.
6. R0XX0R!

Reduce variety.*

*See Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels, and the upcoming Codex: Chaos.

Posted By Furious on 04/24/2007 3:10 PM
Reduce variety.*

*See Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels, and the upcoming Codex: Chaos.

YAY!!!! Jervis!!!!

Posted By Furious on 04/24/2007 3:10 PM
Reduce variety.*

*See Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels, and the upcoming Codex: Chaos.

I guess it was big of them to come out and admit that they don't know how to write balanced rules for multiple factions.

The solution chosen isn't ideal. They choose to simply reduce options and factions until things are simple enough even for them. It would have been nicer for the fans for Games Dev to resign en masse and then have GW seek out writers that could write balanced rules without reducing any variety.

C'est la vie.

Actually, I think that GW, or the design team at least, see Rending as the answer for a lot of units to make them useful.

And for a CC unit, I think it's actually fine. It's when you do stupid stuff like put it on a unit that can't be shot at even over relatively short distances, or on a unit with T4, 3+ and then FNP, that things start getting dumb.

My fervent hope? That they give it to Flayed ones for Necrons. Not only does it then invalidate Immortals as the default Elites choice (and makes everyone buy models that used to suck) but it gives Necrons an answer for Godzilla, which is really the only list they can't deal with ATM.

This has nothing to do with the fact that I plan to start Necrons.

Posted By Furious on 04/24/2007 3:10 PM
Reduce variety.*

*See Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels, and the upcoming Codex: Chaos.

Actually, that is more correct. Whatever form 5th edition is, I'm sure 6th edition won't have any real rules at all; just moving your dollies around the table and making 'pew-pew' noises.

Posted By syr8766 on 04/24/2007 6:47 PM

Posted By Furious on 04/24/2007 3:10 PM
Reduce variety.*

*See Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels, and the upcoming Codex: Chaos.

Actually, that is more correct. Whatever form 5th edition is, I'm sure 6th edition won't have any real rules at all; just moving your dollies around the table and making 'pew-pew' noises.

I've been doing that for years, Yair. 

I'm a trendsetter.

But seriously man, they're Action Figures.  Action Figures.  He's a bounty hunter with wookiee scalps and a jetpack, mom, he's not Ken!!!

Great, now I have to call my therapist.

Posted By Jester on 04/24/2007 7:10 PM

Posted By syr8766 on 04/24/2007 6:47 PM

Posted By Furious on 04/24/2007 3:10 PM
Reduce variety.*

*See Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels, and the upcoming Codex: Chaos.

Actually, that is more correct. Whatever form 5th edition is, I'm sure 6th edition won't have any real rules at all; just moving your dollies around the table and making 'pew-pew' noises.

I've been doing that for years, Yair. 

I'm a trendsetter.

But seriously man, they're Action Figures.  Action Figures.  He's a bounty hunter with wookiee scalps and a jetpack, mom, he's not Ken!!!

Great, now I have to call my therapist.

After you clean up, tell him I said hi.

Fools. The obvious way to balance the game is that the only army alowed is SPACE MARIENZ (Hurr!). Considering the state of affairs, this will be an easy transition.

Posted By keezus on 04/25/2007 7:28 AM
Considering the state of affairs, this will be an easy transition.

Yes, and with the amount of Marine players out there, GW's claims of 'your army won't change' from the beginning of 4th Ed will actually become true!!!

BYE

Coming soon in 5th edition: Warhammer 40K Clix.

On a serious note (<- blasphemy), Why aren't more close combat troops armed with heavy melee weapons or whatever they are called. I mean it's not that this rule isn't in the Rulebook. Imo, this would add a bit variety between "No Powerweapon", "Hidden Fist", "Power weapon" and "Rending" we have now.

Because now, everything that isn't rending or can deal a serious amout of power fist or weapon hits equals a pretty lousy assault unit. That's pretty lame.

Greets
Schepp himself

If Gw would just go back to save modifiers, we wouldn't need stupid tricks like heavy close combat weapons, power weapons and rending.
But the motto seems to be, if you never admit a mistake, you never made one.

In the grim darkness of the far future, every codex is for space marines.  But some have bikes with teleport homers.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/25/2007 8:42 AM
If Gw would just go back to save modifiers, we wouldn't need stupid tricks like heavy close combat weapons, power weapons and rending.
But the motto seems to be, if you never admit a mistake, you never made one.

Good god if that ain't the truth. In "simplifying" the rules by removing "complicated" modifiers GW made them even more complicated and convoluted with all of the slowed exceptions and exceptions on top of exceptions inserted to serve the same purpose or provide similar game effects as the (simpler) modifiers did. But hey, it's more streamlined, right?

Well, there are Ork Choppas but nyar has the right answer. All the exceptions-to-exceptions crap suck. Oh no, my weapon that can normally negate Inv saves can't hack through your inv. shield that can't be negated by any weapon! (And let's not get started on initiative "always first/last" crap that could be streamlined by just saying the Eldar always-strike-first is I12, the Noise marine always-strike-first is I11, powerclaws are I0 and powerfists are I-1...or whatever works.)

Or, god forbid, they strike simultaneously! Gasp! Shock! Awe! WHAT?!?!? Amazingly enough, this concept somehow works just fine in WHFB but 40k has to be speshul. Think about the children!

How was cover handled in the third edition? Wasn't this the "always strikes last except when...or...whereas"- dilemma?

This is maybe off topic, but I think if the variety of some stats were a bit higher, it would add a lot to this game. I mean, for BS there is nearly only BS3 and BS4...Same with some other stats, while not so drastic.

Greets
Schepp himself

So when you go to pop that skimmer (Falcon) you need to roll sixes to hit. Pick up the dice and roll sixes to rend. Then roll a third time to see if you actually glance. I play a similiar game every once in a while called Yahtzee. Rending probably has a higher probability to get a skimmer than a lone character with fist though. Quick some one run the numbers. Instead of giving everyone rending why not just fix the skimmer/monstrous creature rules. It's like every army is going rend happy so instead of taking all those assault cannons lets take as many units as possible that can have rending. Orks don't need a new codex just give them all rending in assault.

Pretty much the same way as it's covered now. I've sold my old 3rd ed book so I don't have it handy. The big problems occur around the whole "I"m charging, with frags, and powerfists are involved." It doesn't matter who has the fist since the first/last crap comes into play. Bonus comedy when you have the slaanesh mark involved (or was it warp scream?).


They obviously can't. To claim two attacks strike simultaneously would be to imagine two things hitting other things at the precise nanosecond of time! It's impossible! (Ignore that initiatives strike simo when first/last isn't involved, since that's obviously a different case. )

Maybe 40K is total sh1t (a technical term) and needs to be burnt to the ground and completely rewritten.

The game will neve be balanced. only becasue it is not a smart businiess diecision to make everything even. they want you to buy certain things (dark angels, chaos) the only thing thet dont want you to buy are orks, they are never gonna get a new codex. poor little buggers

Posted By KrAyGgEr on 04/25/2007 2:19 PM
The game will neve be balanced. only becasue it is not a smart businiess diecision to make everything even. they want you to buy certain things (dark angels, chaos) the only thing thet dont want you to buy are orks, they are never gonna get a new codex. poor little buggers

See, that doesn't make sense.  GW makes Space Marines and Orks.  Why would GW want people to buy Space Marines and not Orks?  Why wouldn't they want people to buy Space Marines and Orks?  If the game was balanced, more models would probably be sold.

The game is still fun, the game is still tactical, the game is bent but not broken. I played three times yesterday and enjoyed them all.

As for the Initiative thing, units DO often strike simultaneously in 40k- they just need equal Initiative.  Happens all the time. It's in Warhammer that they never do, and if Initiative is equal and neither charged, you have two levels of tiebreakers.

this is true, but its not about what makes sence, i feel its about what makes money. and of all the gamers i know, only two play orks. the majority play space marines, chaos or tau. recently more eldar lists are popping up due to the new eldar codex. same could bbe said when they re-did the Tyarnid codex (both times)
i cant tell you why they havent made a better book on the orks except that not as many people are playing them (my sympathies to the ork players out there) so they wont waste time or money making a new codex.
im as unhappy as the rest of you on this subject.

I'm an ork player and I have been hoping for years now that they would come out with an up to date codex for my boyz, but honestly now that I see what they are doing to codexes, I'm not sure I want them to touch my Orks, just give me good vehicle models and some models to represent the troops better, I'll muddle along with the rules I have now instead of watching the boyz rules get butchered into even more dumbed down hammer.

Give orks T5 and KFF of 4+ and call it good... Make RTT Rounds untimed. NS

-Grim

I'd be in favour of a 2 wound basic ork, or letting more orks get eavy armour.
and a tellyporta deep strike ability would be cool.

But that's not the issue.
The other way GW could balance the game is to just drop all the factions except space marines!
I mean, they make the most money, right?
Does 8 years of neglect count as being "dropped", I can never tell.