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So i was messing about with the army list builder and realised that one problem is common between cc carnies (see the other thread) and foot sloggin orks- speed

toughness, combat power, cost- they all come under scrutiny as problems- but the main problem is the speed- especially with the orks


So i propse the following new general special rule

Vigorous Advance
Some slower creatures will often be enthusiastic in wanting to come to grips with a foe, sometimes moving with such enthusiasm and vigor that they close the distance quicker than their enemies expect.

Any unit with vigorous advance may make an initive test in the shooting phase. If this test is passed the unit may make a "fleet of foot" movement.
The lowest intitiative value is used in the unit.



So basically give it to orks and they'd be able to move abit quicker across the battlefield- without it being over powered- it'd also show the power of waaaagh- similar to the current warhammer orc special rule


thoughts?

Does the unit lose the ability to shoot if it takes the initiative test or if they fail the test is it a 'freebie' where they still get to shoot?

Cause at an Initiative of 2 (both Carnifexes and Orks) you won't be passing all that many of those tests and it wouldn't be worth giving up a shooting build to aim for that 1/3 chance every turn.

So they need a 1 or 2... How about a re-roll if they forgo shooting? Then add a 10 pt wargear item that lets them fleet at I+1.

I would dig something like a special power for the Boss or maybe nobs... let it work better if more orks are around (haven't figured out how) and then the boys could fleet forward. The whole Initiative-thing seems dubious to me.

I'm thinking of these Faith points the sisters get. If anyone knows them...

Greets
Schepp himself

I think the solution to the problem is to:
1.Try and ensure that games always play out to 6 turns, and always play missions.
2. Always play on either 6' by 4' of 4' by 4' boards.
3.Make sure any slow moving CC units are either cheap, or tough enough to withstand being shot to bits.

Currently, it seems that in the tourney scene, 1 is ignored (even though it's fundemental to game balance!). 2 is pretty much adhered to. 3 is not true at all- orks are flimsy as hell and waaay overcosted because of it, and carnifexes for CC are very, very expensive.
The problem with any blanket fix for that is that it unbalances other bits. Make carnies cheaper, and you end up with more dakkafexes. Make them any tougher, and the dakkafexes also get tougher. Make ork boys cheaper or better, and trukk boys become overpowered.
It's the problem with the new edition's unified movement and AP rules- great if you're playing MEQ, nightmarish for any other army.

In our rules we made two changes to speed to allow things like 'Fexes and other Monstrous Creatures to have an impact on the game.

We changed fleet to a flat 6", and added in a 'Running' rule. Models could give up shooting to run 3".

Monstrous Creatures and Walkers got a similar thing. They move 6", shoot, assault 6", or move 12" and shoot but no assault.

Works very well.

BYE

Nice, an interesting fix there. Why the difference in speed between normal troops and MC/Walkers?

Wakers usually have larger legs, therefore a bigger stride. That and a bit of 2nd Ed where walkers were faster than normal men (6" move or 12" run compared to 4 and 8 for most people).

BYE

I was thinking about this last night, and giving dedicated, pistol wielding troops with a save lower than 4+ 8" movement 6" assault occured to me.
It's probably unbalanced though.

I really wouldn't mind just going back to the movement stat, but that would be a major overhaul of the rules.

I do like your patch fix though. It is simple and really wouldn't overbalance the game much. Foot troops would have a much greater ability to flank!

So do you do the extra move in the shooting phase or the movement phase? Does allowing an automatic 6" fleet unbalance Eldar and nids?

No. As everyone can run 3" (except for things like Terminators, Broadsides, Tyrant Guard), Fleet only becomes 3" more.

BYE

Borrowed from WHFB:

For Orks, what if once per game the Warboss can call the WAAAAGH, and any Mob that passes a mob size check (not counting grotz, squigs, or vehicles squadrons,) can Fleet? Maybe to ensure some good distance, make it D3+3"?

Posted By Toreador on 05/01/2007 8:21 AM
I really wouldn't mind just going back to the movement stat, but that would be a major overhaul of the rules.

I don't think the rules would require that much changing to bring the movement stat back.  You move your movement stant in inches and charge the same distance.  Difficult terrain would have to be changed to be someting like a flat half movement rate or something (maybe an I test or move at half?).  Other than that its good to go.  The thing that would take some thought and adjustment would be point costs for units based on their new movement speeds.  All in all though its something that I'd really like to see.

The big thing is most of the ranges, vehicle movement, special rules, are all based around a 6" standard move. There are a lot of little areas in the game that this is taken into affect. Would have to look throughout to make the changes. Then such things as fleet would also go away....

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/29/2007 9:00 PM

We changed fleet to a flat 6", and added in a 'Running' rule. Models could give up shooting to run 3".

Monstrous Creatures and Walkers got a similar thing. They move 6", shoot, assault 6", or move 12" and shoot but no assault.

Before I read this I was thinking about a house rule: units can force march 12" in the movement phase but cannot shoot, assault, or take cover saves for that turn & the following player's turn.

Where can I get hold of your ruleset? Everything I've heard sounds great (and, you know, playtested).

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/01/2007 1:03 AM
Wakers usually have larger legs, therefore a bigger stride. That and a bit of 2nd Ed where walkers were faster than normal men (6" move or 12" run compared to 4 and 8 for most people).

BYE

Keep it up HB, soon you'll have 2nd edition down to a science (not that I'm disagreeing).

My personal ideal

1. Move 6.

2. either move 3- or 6 more; shoot; or move and assault.

 

Another easy fix to this would be to allow another phase during or after the Assault phase called "reserves"

This is an extra movement phase for anyone that did not shoot or assault during your turn. They get an extra 6" move that cannot bring them within (1" or 2"?) of another unit. I would say that units that did not fleet of foot or claw would gain this, but if they did fleet they do not. Fleet is a bonus movement that can get you into assault range signifying you are quicker. This movement is just extra "tactical" movement on the field of battle the follows the normal rule. You could also use another condition not allowing any move that requires a terrain roll as running all out you are unable to do this.

It could be just as easily added into the movement, allowing you to double movement, but this way you have to choose whether you want to try and fleet to get into CC range, or take the extra tactical movement instead.

Orks is Orks! If they want to go faster they'll bring more Mek Boyz. They don't need a fleet rule, what they need are more gunz! I do like the WAAGH! Fleet idea.

How about this:

When they charge to take a WAAGH! test they can charge an additional d6". So they can shoot their guns and then get a 'fleet' charge. If they fail the roll and can't charge far enough, then something unpleasant happens. Say the Nob has to make d3 armour saves (they have 2 wounds for a reason now).

I have always felt the same way, units in the current eddition of 40K move to slowly. Their should be an option to run, like in 2nd ed. It makes sense and i dont think it would be unbalancing. Why shouldnt a unit be able to run if they need to cross some ground quickly?

I like that, even if it were only an extra 3", but that would really help.

Sentinals NEED to be faster, like in DOW. the IG have nothing to move quickly and take objectives, unless you use the salamander scout vehicle, which may or may not be tourny legal. Plus you have to build your own as the actual model is too big and hard to hide.

As for the units in question in corruent rules:

Maybe for carnifexes you could allow for an upgrade that let them move faster, with fleet perhaps? Because assault Carnies are cool, but largely useless when compared to shooty Canrifexes.

Orcs need some type of power of the Waggghh ability that lets them move at double movement once per game or something like that. as they are they just wont make it into combat most games. With a double movement once per game, they could at least make it into combat by turn three. But mobile armies will still give them fits.

I proposed somewhere at somepoint... 

That any model may choose to run as part of their movement phase.  If they do so they cannot take any action during the shooting phase, and reduce any cover save they receive by 1.

A running model gains 1d6 inches of movement, or a full 6" for any model with fleet.

Alternatively a model with fleet may still move 1d6 inches during the shooting phase without any aditional penalty.

 

Effect:  You have to commit to running before you see how your shooting is going.  And the cover penalty is enough to keep genestealers and their ilk from having a flat 12" movement rate.

---

For carnifexes, I propose a new upgrade, temporarily called powerful legs, which is incompatible with the three carapace enhancements (+1T, +1 W, +1 Sv).  Probably be about 25 points, maybe as high as 35.

You're trying to fix one of the fundamental problems that exist in 4th edition: Walking Close Combat Troops Suck.

Really, the only way you're going to fix this is by giving fleet to CC models. Moving 6" a turn is a careful advance, fleeting would be disregarding that. Maybe the idea that it gives -1 to your cover save by doing so is a good balance, units already with fleet would be able to ignore that penalty.

Without such things, non-silly fast CC troops are just going to get ignored in favor of more shooting and mobility (to run away from assault troops).

Voodoo pretty much sums it up right there... How often do you see a decent melee troop type (be it infantry or vehicle) but when you see that is has standard movement and think: mh...nahh, won't make it in combat.

Greets
Schepp himself

That's exactly why Orks and Carnis can both move and shoot their heavy weapons.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 06/13/2007 5:08 AM
You're trying to fix one of the fundamental problems that exist in 4th edition: it's not a game of maneuver.

Fixed your typo.

I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but it seems rather silly that we are all paying hundreds of dollars to buy armies of plastic figures created by an organization incapable of writing a fair and balanced rule book.  If any one needs any proof just look at DOW,  DOW appears to have been test played by 3 year olds (or worse women in their 50s), the game has no coherency, IG cant take objectives against a good opponent, Orks cant win in the late game, space marines are rigged, necrons dont even use the same system of gathering resources.  On the other hand starcraft by blizzard created atlest 5 whole years earlier features seamless balance and an incredible range of valid tactics (even after 5 years new tactics are still being discovered, 2 weeks ago T v T switched to an all out vulture war.) 

Anyways, I'm starting to ramble but I guess my point is either we should all create and test our own rules and just use games workshops models (similar to what HBMC has done), or we should hope that blizzard comes in and takes over. ( )

Or if that doesn't work we could just all play eldar. (I wonder how long it would take gw to create a new ork codex if that was to happen; probably a day or so since thats all the testing they need anyways.