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Here it is, the New model from Felix.  Its awesome! one of the best orcs i have seen in ages.  It up for preorder, snap it up while you can!

 

http://avatars-of-war.com/web2mail/web2mail.php

Great sculpts!!  The arm sticking out is getting kind of old thou, but not yet a killer in his models.

Another beautiful model. I wonder when he'll get to wood elves or vampires?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Cybele on 05/14/2007 12:27 PM
Great sculpts!!  The arm sticking out is getting kind of old thou, but not yet a killer in his models.

It's funny,  I noticed that about his sculpts today for the first time too.  My concern is that the outflung arm to the side might make it hard to rank up.

Does he not do any 40K heros?? Or is it just for fantasy?

Posted By Cybele on 05/14/2007 12:27 PM
Great sculpts!!  The arm sticking out is getting kind of old thou, but not yet a killer in his models.

Heh, oh yeah, they do all do that don't they?

Still these models would invariably represent important characters / leaders so I guess he can get away with it for now, although the two orcs would look a bit silly stood next to each other.

I'm still thinking of getting the slayer.

These are awesome!

I love the orc boss...

But how does he get away with this without being sued by GW? Although this is his own work surely he's infringing on their IP?

Theres a clause with GW that states all work produced by staff is the property of the company by default. So even if he was former GW staff and now isn't he wouldn't own the rights to these.

Also considering he now works for a competitor (PP) wouldn't that make this even more difficult?

People who cast there own stuff modelled around GW minis get closed down all the time, so how is this surviving? I'm not complaining as i really love these and want him to continue, but I'm just worried that sooner or later this brilliant line will be axed.

GW don't own the IP to orc, dwarf and elf.

Posted By Bombot on 05/15/2007 3:48 AM
GW don't own the IP to orc, dwarf and elf.

Perhaps not to  the names or general well established imagery, ie an elf is slender with pointy ears, an orc is gorrilla like with green skin.

However this last orc boss is extremely similar to GWs black orc and war boss sculpts.

This isn't a generic orc based around the fantasy setting this is a very specific artistic direction and theme based heavily on GW current design.

Yes, but as GW know well themselves, you can pilfer other people's imagery if they've not got the trademarks bolted down.

Perhaps this is why we are seeing fantasy models, and not 40k models. A big Orc model would be a tough one to sue on, as he could claim that GW didn't sue the pants off of everyone that makes Orc models, and there are many. Much of 'generic fantasy' would be considered public domain.

But a Space Marine? Game Over. GW has kept a tight leash on 40k because by and large they developed the finished IP from scratch. I know I will get arguements, but 40k is much more stand alone than fantasy.

engine

Gundam - Felix is a freelance sculptor, he's not "on staff". They can hardly make a legally-enforcable clause stating that if you work for them at any time, then any artwork of any kind produced by you FOREVAR is their property.

The Fantasy stuff is generic enough to get past IP. Certainly with World of Warcraft (and the Warcraft RTS games before that) out there pretty much using exactly-GW-design-style Orcs, Goblins, Elves, Dwarfs, etc there's nothing they can do. Kev Adams (where is he now?) continued to sculpt a lot of orcs for other companies (Heartbreaker, etc) after he left GW, and I'd say that Kev had an awful lot to do with the development of GW's in-house "Orc/k" style.

I disagree that it's an (enforcable) GW-Black Orc. If it had the distinctive faceplate then I'd agree, but it's an Orc warlord wearing plate armour with spikes and horns on his hat and big-ass shoulderpads. I could say he's clearly a World-of-Warcraft Orc. And being able to point to other generic fantasy IP that looks exactly the bloody same is what makes Felix safe. The Slayer I'd have thought would present a bigger problem..

Finally, this isn't some guy doing recasts. This is a talented sculptor, sculpting his own single, fantasy models that happen to fit in with Warhammer (like tons of other companies out there) who is also a sometime sculptor for their own company. Going after him would be probably detrimental on many ways.


I wonder though... if the IP for a Space Ork is loose enough for Felix to do a Warboss. It's just an Orc in junky armour with a cobbled-together gun and some kind of nasty powered claw/chainsaw/axe. Going that far might be a bit risky though...

Posted By scipio.au on 05/15/2007 2:02 PM
Gundam - Felix is a freelance sculptor, he's not "on staff". They can hardly make a legally-enforcable clause stating that if you work for them at any time, then any artwork of any kind produced by you FOREVAR is their property.

Hi Scipio nice comments. The point about the IP wasn't to say that any work produced after employement was the property of GW. However they do have a very specific policy that anything produced during employment is their property and not that of the creator.  So you can't take any designs with you or develop them yourself.

Just look at the problems that were caused by the Vespid concept sketch, that artist came through huge issues with the GW legal machine even when he posted pics of his work for them on his own website.

The points about fantasy are good ones though. I suppose that GW "style" can't be protected as well as GW "scratch" creation. I do definately agree that 40K has a much stronger IP realm than fantasy and always has. While 40K may steal narrative and plot from many other sci fi the imagery can be argued to be much more original (although alot of the gothic future vibe has been done in the past, Frank Herbert and Dune for example).

It would be interesting to see what happened if felix attempted 40k, I should imagine this is why he's up to now avoided all 40K style minis. Although for sure that Dwarf Slayer is cutting it a bit close...

 

It is a fantastic piece – I've been looking for a suitably big orc to lead my WIP army, and when I saw this I just had to order it.

...along with the Shaman.

 

My wallet had a dream. A household dream. The sun has made a note of his face. The wallet curse threetime.

I understand what you're saying, but my point is that Felix appears to work for them on a freelance basis - that is to say that he works for GW on a commission basis and not as staff. If he happens to produce five pieces of work for them over, say, a three year period that does not make him their employee for three years.

If he were working at the design studio and going in to work for them on a daily basis, or even drawing a regular wage/salary from GW then I'd totally agree, but it appears to not be the case at all.

Clearly, if working for GW then the smart thing is to keep any of your own private sketches to yourself and not show the guys at work. - Bring 'em out when you leave with fresh dates on the work or backdate them to pre-employment times. :p

40k is a massive collage of ripped-off IP from other sources, both commercial, pop and historical, along with some original ideas and a few spins on them. The difference is that GW is a big fish in a small pond, so much of the stuff they do rip off is both tweaked and far too small fry (the Giger's-Alien-hormagaunts circa the 2nd-ed codex, Sly Marbo and the Rambocatachans) for the big IP companies to notice/care (Fox, Stallone) while they remain the 900-lb gorilla in the miniatures market, so they and their lawyers will crush the skulls of anyone making Space Marine-alikes or indy sculptors making something like a Nurgle Daemon Prince in powered armour.

As far as 40k goes, the only things that I think might fly are not-Imperial Guard as generic future troopers and future-Orcs. Though remembering how GW crushed (Shockforce? - guys who had, "Org" ork-alikes not-IG Cadian-alikes and a few other things) Orks might be too-shaky ground. Future military human troopers would work, but they don't work so well as individual characters (which seems to be his focus) as people want army builders.

As it happens, I got my first bunch of Felix' figures in the post today, and I have to say they the Elf, Goblin and Dwarf are all quite lovely, though oddly all seemed a little smaller than I imagined from their pictures. The only thing that seems undersized though is the Elf Lord's sword, which is actually somewhat proportionate instead of massively-GW-style oversized. Actually, the goblin's weapons also fit that smaller-than-expected bill, too.

Still, great minis, and I heartily endorse them to anyone thinking of adding them to their collection for armies or (like me) just to paint - and as a triple bonus, they're cheaper then GW's hero/lord models, you're supporting the artist directly, and if you're going to game with them you'll have some nice unique models not many others have that look exactly like GW ones and fit into your armies really nicely.

I held off getting the Orc shaman with these guys, but I might get it now. Definately need to get that (Black) Orc warlord.. question is should I wait for his next release to combine the postage?

Well I preordered my Orc Warboss because I just love the mini so much!

also did anyone notice the info about Felix's next release?

A Dark Elf Hero thats a special collaboration with Mark Gibbons who will be doing the concept art...

Ummm sounds very interesting.

Sounds like a potentially fantastic model. Where does it talk about this?

If you go to Felixs main page on the Avatars of war site theres a section that covers previews of upcoming minis. In the Orc preview he talks about the Dark Elf Lord.

Only mentioned very briefly but I can imagine it now. I always loved Mark Gibbons Elf and Eldar artwork form 2nd ed. So i can imagine a really dark and sinister model, instead of those chessy GW ones that are way too comic book.

A single miniature would be hard to litigate against as IP infringement. However, if Felix develops a body of work that is clearly reminiscent of Warhammer Fantasy, that could be another case entirely. To successfully litigate, GW has to -prove- that Felix is making money on property that is not his own. Often times, a company claiming IP infringement has to also prove that such activity is actively harming their business by stealing their market share.

Orks and goblins, elves and trolls are public domain. In the same vein, you can't copyright mexicans, hippos, or ninjas. I don't think Felix has a lot to worry about. In fact, I think he's rather confident in the potential success of his new venture. Hordes Trollbloods players are up in arms because Felix has declined (for whatever reason) to produce new Trolls for the upcoming expansion to that game. Felix's distinctive trolls were a large part of that faction's identity and his talent was a valuable, marketable resourse.

Posted By redstripe on 05/16/2007 6:34 AM
Hordes Trollbloods players are up in arms because Felix has declined (for whatever reason) to produce new Trolls for the upcoming expansion to that game. Felix's distinctive trolls were a large part of that faction's identity and his talent was a valuable, marketable resourse.

You have to wonder here if PP is doing like GW did and not paying their sculpters enough to keep them happy or keep them around..  Of course some sculpters just want to break out and do their own thing rather than be told what to do, but in most cases, they leave because the original company doesn't pay them what they think they are worth.. Leaving and going freelance is a double edged sword.. no longer are they tied to the machine telling them what to do, but they are also not getting any money until they sell their own miniatures.. 

I hope Felix is able to do well with his stuff.. I like it.. I might even swap the stiff orc arm with something a bit more dynamic from the fantasy or 40k realms..

Posted By two heads talking on 05/16/2007 6:56 AM

You have to wonder here if PP is doing like GW did and not paying their sculpters enough to keep them happy or keep them around.. 

From what I understand (Mr. Seacat has posted some details about this process on the PP boards) most, if not all, of the sculpting that is done for Privateer Press is contract work.  It may simply be that Felix and PP could not come to a mutually satisfactory contract for the new Evolution project.  It could be because Felix didn't feel they were offering him enough money.  I could be because Felix wanted to focus on his new independant work.  I don't know.

I think this happens fairly regularly, though.  It's only an issue, here, because the image of Trollbloods is extremely distinct and pervasive throughout the line.  More-so than any of their other ranges, the slightest deviation in presentation is immediately appearant.  We're interested in what happened with Felix, here, simply because it is -very- clear it is another sculpter working on them.  His influence on the blighted Nyss, for example, seems to be less poignant because the range continues to be cohesive despite his departure.

Posted By redstripe on 05/16/2007 6:34 AM
A single miniature would be hard to litigate against as IP infringement. However, if Felix develops a body of work that is clearly reminiscent of Warhammer Fantasy, that could be another case entirely. To successfully litigate, GW has to -prove- that Felix is making money on property that is not his own. Often times, a company claiming IP infringement has to also prove that such activity is actively harming their business by stealing their market share.

Orks and goblins, elves and trolls are public domain. In the same vein, you can't copyright mexicans, hippos, or ninjas. I don't think Felix has a lot to worry about. In fact, I think he's rather confident in the potential success of his new venture. Hordes Trollbloods players are up in arms because Felix has declined (for whatever reason) to produce new Trolls for the upcoming expansion to that game. Felix's distinctive trolls were a large part of that faction's identity and his talent was a valuable, marketable resourse.

Posted By scipio.au on 05/17/2007 1:57 AM

I am inclined to agree that the slayer is the one sailing closest to the wind, but he's not the only one to do slayer knock-offs. Black Tree Design and Gamezone have them too. 'Dwarf slayer', though, is not copyright of GW. It's just a dwarf with a mohawk after all.

Btw, the Chaos eight-pointed star is actually copyright of GW. Cheeky, I know.

I think that's one of the things they're trademarked that wouldn't actually stand up in court. Well, if anyone dared to fight them.

Why bother argue the finer points of IP when we should be discussing how good his minis are. Also lets pester him to do some 40K marines on the sly under a different name so if GW try to bust him it wont actually be the company he owns now. (it will be a fake one ofr the purposes of selling his fans cool space marines.)

Heh, I can't see Felix going that far as it would most assuredly be burning his bridges with GW for future work. The fact that he has parted ways with PP for the time being to work on something of his own (from one of the PP people's post on a different board) could well be interesting though.

Hard to do much more with the discussion as he only releases one miniature in his AoW range every few months. We've already gotten past the "Hey, new Orc! Cool!" part, and even the "Dark elf next, should be good" bit....

ok maybe a few more wow, yes , nice lovely, are in order

Well as soon as mine arrives in June I'll paint it up and post a pic here so we'll have some more to talk about till the next release!

I had my Dwarf, Elf and Goblin show up the other week. I'm keepng them bare metal till I see a mate of mine (who wants to check them out. After that. they can go into the paint queue, where they may or may not wait for many years.