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Unless it's been changed in the new Tau Empire :

A Commander is an Independant Character unless he has a Bodyguards retinue.

A Commander with a Drone "may still join other units as an Independant Character".

 

So I think he's just an IC...

But I'm no Tau specialist ! 

I'd say no as well, the drones are wargear and wargear isn't a scoring unit. Look at it this way, what happens if the Commander dies before the drones, they disappear, right. So they are not a unit in their own right and the Commander is an IC and cannot be scoring.

The Tau codex says that "unless accompanyied by a Bodyguard the Tau commander is an independent charactor as described in the warhammer rulebook.
It then says that if he has drones then he and the drones form a unit.

The reason for this is being drones are counted when determining if you have suffered 25% casulties to shooting and if you are below starting strength.

Example, Tau Commander with two gun drones takes a few wounds and his two drones end up as casulties. He then has to take a test for losing 25% to shooting and also has a -1 modifier for being 50% below starting strength. Thats the only reason they say it counts as a unit, in GW terms he counts as an independant charactor regardless of if he has drones or not so cannot count as a scoring unit.

However, if he has a bodyguard attached then the Codex state "unless accompanyied by a bodyguard he is an IC"
This means that if given a bodyguard he counts! as being a scoring unit as he has lost his IC status. Also note that this means he can then be targetted by shooting as he has lost the IC ability and counts as a squad.

P 86 (IIRC) states that all elements in a squad should be treated separately and the UK GT will almost certainly follow general practice in understanding this to mean the character does not score, whatever unit he is in.

If the commander and drones form a unit, as the codex instructs, then why would it not be treated as a 'non-vehicle unit' on the scoring sheet? I would accept that the character remains an IC, no matter how you read, in such a unit (so therefore he doesn't score) and that as the drone is paid for from his wargear allowance, the drone does contribute anything to the scoring value of the unit, but i don't see why it can' claim objectives or count as a surviving scoring unit in an alpha mission. Please explain.

Ok, let me split it down a bit better as I did compact my post a little.

What I mean is.
If the Commander does or doesn't have drones he still counts as an IC.
He doesn't count as scoring for purposes of capturing objectives etc
If using VP, then you use the IC part of the VP list including the cost of any upgrades, weapons and drones he has. (Drones count as part of his unit so they are counted)

If the Commander has a bodyguard he is no longer counted as an IC and instead counts as a normal unit/squad
He does count as a scoring unit for purposes of capturing objectives etc
If using VP, then you use the normal non-vehicle part of the VP list including the cost of any upgrades, weapons and drones etc of all members inc the commander

Drones may only be wargear but they count toward the total cost of the squad or the IC when totaling VP.
The reason why they say the drones form part of the unit is because they are used for the 25% casulties thingy in my other post.

Hope this helps, its confusing I know.

I understand that, but don't see its relevance.

The codex informs us that the independent character and the drones 'form a unit' (p31). Are you saying that they don't? If so on what basis? Or are you saying the unit formed the unit does not count as a unit for VP purposes? If so, on what basis?

Even with a bodyguard he is still an IC for scoring purposes, VPs, etc. GW has made this clear time and time again and people still try to read into it. All that the line means is that he can't leave the retinue.

The problem, torgoch, is that while the codex says that he "forms a unit" with his drones, it also says that he is an IC unless he has a bodyguard, which drones are not.

SO...he's in a unit formed of himself and his wargear, and still counts as an IC, which means he's not a scoring unit.

The book specifically states an independent character and drones form a unit, so being an IC and being in a unit are clearky not mutually exclusive. On what basis do you think they are?

I never said they were mutually exclusive. No one here has said that.

Mutually exclusive would mean you could be one or the other, but not both.

Whereas, my point was that he is indeed both, but when you apply both rule sets, he isn't a scoring unit.

***Post Edited as information was completely irrelevant and incorrect***

Without laying out the specific rules, an IC is a unit and never counts as a scoring unit.

The question is whether a Tau Commander ceases to be an IC when accompanied by drones. The Empire codex does not in my opinion confirm this. It can be argued but I don't think there is a strong argument there. The rule means the Commander still acts as an IC when accompanied by drones. It specifically says he can join other units as an IC, but by contrast to the Bodyguard situation, I take it that he remains an IC in all respects.

Interestingly, Commander Shadowsun *does* cease being an IC when accompanied by drones, and would count as a scoring unit in that condition, and would not be able to join other units.

I still don't understand why the unit is not a unit in your thinking. Let me clear about the steps I would take.

The Commander + drone 'forms a unit'. To score it I would look down the table for unit and find 'non-vehicle unit'. I would discount the wounds of the character as he comes under the IC section and p86 directs me to treat ICs seperately, and note that the unit is above half strength as there is only 1 scoring wound at full strength and 1 wound remains. I'd conclude the the unit is scoring.

To see what it is worth in terms of Victory Points I would discount the points I had spent on the IC and conclude the unit is worth nothing.

Which step is wrong?

To claim he continues to count as an IC would break the rule direction that he forms a unit. An opponent could, for example, claim to shoot a Tau commander accompanied by drones even if was not the closest target on the basis he was shooting at a unit.

Yay, praise be with thee thy "Kilkrazy" for thou hast shown me the light.
(Subtitle - Hells Guardian is a complete nim-com-poop and was completely wrong!)


Yes, I've finally got my head round it all.
The commander is an IC regardless of wether he has drones, bodyguards or both.
Its the same thing as a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain of the Space Marines going on his own or with a command squad. He is still a IC for everything. The only difference is that if he is joined with a squad, he loses the ability to NOT be picked out by shooting as per IC rules for shooting.

I remember when i first fielded shadowsun, I had wondered what that statement was for. When I played a few games I realised that it was proberly there to stop shadowsun from being able to join other units like a 6xStealth team until her drones were destroyed.

I'm sorry to everyone but I'm going to have to contradict my previous post.
When the Commander has drones, he and the drones form a unit, this is to allow the drones to be able to participate in close combat. The IC status applies to the whole HQ choice drones and all for VP and scoring.

When a commander has a bodyguard, he retains his IC status within that team. I.E. has to be in base to base contact for close combat. But is part of that team and cannot leave.

I would then imagine that the bodyguards would be a scoring unit but the commander with them would not count as a scoring unit. Its a bit odd really.

Once again, sorry guys. But I'm man enought to admit I balls'ed up and was wrong.

Okies, Drones are included for purposes of how many Victory Points you get at the end of the game.
The drones form a unit WITH the commander. The commander is an IC therefore the drones are also classed in the same catagory as the IC as they are part of his unit and therefore NOT a scoring unit.

They are also not counted seperately because they are wargear attribitued to the Commander, so in terms of VP. You add the cost of all his weapons, upgrades and wargear to get the total VP.

If he had a bodyguard, then I the bodyguard would be classed as Non-vehicle, and the Commander in the IC section in both VP and also Scoring.

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 05/30/2007 2:54 PM
The drones form a unit WITH the commander. The commander is an IC therefore the drones are also classed in the same catagory as the IC as they are part of his unit and therefore NOT a scoring unit.

No, The "if he is an independent character the drones and character form a unit".  There is nothing to say the drones gain IC status!

They aren't technically getting IC status.

If the drones really did form their own unit then that would mean that your 120pts commander can fly around the level unable to capture table quarters etc, but his 10pts each drones from the wargear list that are forced to follow him and die when the commander is killed are able to capture table quarters.
That is a no no.

Tau Drones are programmed to protect Tau life. They put the "forms a unit" because any close combat hits you get can be passed onto the drones because it is part of his unit.

The same applies to bodyguard, he forms a unit with the bodyguard but they are not classed as an IC, only the commander is classed as an IC, the bodyguards are classed as Non-vehicle.

Poor wording on my part

Welcome to the silliness of the drone rules. They're really poorly written.

Motioned .... Seconded .... and bleedin Motion Past!

 

>Posted By torgoch on 05/30/2007 3:38 AM

>Quick question, mostly for my own reassurance

We were doomed from post 1. The dreaded "Quick question" statement of doom

Please don't introduce fluff arguments hellsuardian -  what you think is appropriate based on background is not relevant. Nor, I'm afraid, is your reading of the designers intent.

I think the Drones aren't that badly written in Tau Empire. The IC rules however...

Ok, was not intentional to introduce fluff there. Fluff doesn't support rules
As for intent, I've merely written the way that I have would play them using my understanding of the rules in the codex and rulebook.

I've obviously been unhelpful so sorry bout that. I shall cease my prattling in that case.

Thats my two cents

Here are the questions about drones I sent to GW last August. The IC question was first in the lsit.



Questions about Drones


HQ units with drones

Does an HQ unit accompanied by drones lose its IC status?

If this is true, does it thereby become a scoring unit?

Would an HQ unit starting with drones regain its IC status once its drones had been shot down?


Drones and Morale
The codex says that drones count in the following situations:

1. When to test for a 25% losses morale check.
2. The under 50% strength limit for claiming objectives.
3. The under 50% limit for counting for victory points.

The following situations are not covered.

If a Monat suit (a unit that starts as a single suit) has drones, is it subject to Last Man Standing when the drones are destroyed?

Do drones count for the minus 1 penalty to Morale Checks for a unit being under 50% strength?

Do drones count towards the under 50% limit for being unable to regroup?

If a team is equipped with a bonding knife, does the morale benefit of the knife extend to any drones it may be equipped with? In other words, if the team fell below 50% strength due to loss of some drones, but was still over 50% in Fire Warriors, could it attempt to regroup?


Vehicle Drones
Vehicle gundrones are non-scoring. If they are detached, is the value of the vehicle reduced by 20 points for VP purposes?

Can a vehicle move, pop out its drones, and the drones then move in the Assault phase using jetpack movement?

When drones are detached by a vehicle, do they disembark from their wing mount positions or from the exit hatches or open top of a Piranha, as specified by the main rules?

If the drones from a single vehicle detach and form a squadron of two, and the squadron loses one drone, is the remaining drone subject to Last Man Standing?

If a vehicle is shot down, so that its drones attempt to disembark and one of them succeeds but the other fails, so that a squadron of one is formed, is this squadron considered a Monat and therefore not subject to Last Man Standing?

Since vehicle drones are counted as weapons of the vehicle until they dismount, do they use the vehicle's Targetting Array to enhance their BS?


Piranha Drones
The codex rules say that all drones from an entire squadron of vehicles must disembark at the same time and form a gundrone squadron. If one Piranha from a squadron is shot down, so that its drones attempt to disembark as passengers, are the drones from the other, undamaged Piranhas also required to disembark at the same time?

If they are, can they become entangled and must they save for wounds, even though they are disembarking from vehicles which have not crashed?

What happens if a Piranha is shot down and its drones are killed in the crash? Must the drones from the rest of the squadron bail out, even though there are no drones with which to form up in a squadron? To put it differently, if the drones are killed in the crash, they may be said not to have disembarked, so the drones of the other Piranhas may not subject to forced disembarkation.


Sniper Drones
Each drone in a Sniper Drone Team has a Target Lock. In theory this allows each drone to fire at a separate target unit.

How many Target Priority rolls should the Drone Team roll in order to split their fire; just one, or one per drone, or can the owning player roll up to three?

Does it depend on the number of targets the owning player wants to engage?

Bear in mind that the Team Leader can engage a target as well as each of the drones, but does not have a Target Lock. The team as a whole could therefore engage four different targets.


XV8, XV25 and XV88 Broadside Suits? Drones
There are two different drone controllers, one under support systems and one under wargear. A team leader upgraded character can take a support system and wargear, in theory allowing him to take a support drone controller and a hardwired drone controller. Would this allow him to take up to four drones -- one to two per drone controller?

If a model is upgraded to team leader and takes a target lock and a drone controller from the armoury, do his controlled drones make use of his target lock to shoot at the same alternative target to the rest of the unit that he shoots at? Or do they shoot with the other models in the unit?

If a Crisis suit or Stealth suit takes a marker drone, may the drone and its controller move in the Assault Phase (using Jump Infantry (jetpack) Rules) after shooting the markerlight during the Firing phase?

Drones count as wargear. The rules on wargear say the same item may not be taken twice by one model. Does this mean a drone controller equipped figure cannot take two of the same type of drone?


Shield Drones and Wounding
According to the main rulebook (p.26), when a unit takes wounding hits, the player must first remove models who have no save, then proceed to make saving throws for the surviving models. If a Crisis unit consisting of one suit with two shield drones is hit by a lascannon, the suit does not have a save although the drones do (from their invulnerable save). The suit should be removed first, which automatically kills the drones too. Is this correct?

(Bear in mind it makes shield drones fairly useless, as their main purpose is to defend suits against high strength, low AP weapons.)

Why are you posting this list of questions?

To show that the drones rules are far from clear.

Torgoch:

The only problem I have with your premise is that  (due to the 'units with distinct elements rule) units at the end of the game are essentially broken down into their core elements and then their status is checked to see if they are scoring or not.

In all other cases besides Wargear models, it is easy to understand how the IC can be seperated from the bodyguard unit -- that bodyguard unit still has it's own codex entry and is therefore recognizable as a distinct element.

But when an IC forms a unit with Wargear models at the end of the game if you take the IC from the Wargear models they don't have a codex entry and there isn't really any solid rules basis that they are a unit on their own to be 'distinct' from the character.

In other words, there is no evidence that the Drones are a distinct 'unit' that the IC becomes part of. Instead, the Drones and the IC form a single unit.


Ultimately, I believe that your interpretation is the most fair and accurate way to play. However I think you'll find a lot of resistance from other players regardless.