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It is becoming a disgusting trend as of late, for tau players to take an all mounted force... all with smart missile systems. Sure... they're only four shots.... but when you take 12 vehichles.... that's 48 shots a turn. Now lets through in the fact that they hit on 3's, and wound most things on twos. Then, on top of that, add the fact that there is no line of sight requirement, and a range of 24". This completely disregards terrain on the table, giving the tau a huge advantage when it comes to terrain placement, as terrain only helps the tau player, and only hinders the opponent. It's bad enough that they can move 6" in the assault phase.... do we really need to give them weapons that completely disregard LOS?

My solution is simple.... if the tau want to use smart missile system that require no LOS from the firer... fine, they need someone to markerlight the unit. How can they shoot at something that they don't even know exhist? This is my favorite suggestion.

Another solution is to reduce the range to only 12".... say the vehichle has some sort of body heat sensor. 12" would atleast put the tau vehichle close enough for the enemy to be able to do something about it... even with the tau moving 6" away in the assault phase.

The third solution is to make smart missile systems BS 2. If you're shooting at things you cannot see, and don't even know exhist... then it's practically firing blindly into the air and hoping that the sensor on the missile picks up on somethings body heat.

Posted By Angron on 06/09/2007 10:45 PM

If you're shooting at things you cannot see, and don't even know exhist... then it's practically firing blindly into the air and hoping that the sensor on the missile picks up on somethings body heat.

Well, they are SMART missile systems.

This weapon is FAR from being overpowered.

The vehicles that the SMS is mounted on are far from cheap, first you have the Devilfish 80 points base with 12/11/10 armor that costs 80 points and is BS3. Most Mech tau players will sink 15-20 points into this fish for upgrades (Targeting array, Decoy launchers, Multi Tracker) so now you have a 100 point transport, and then on top of it some players (my self included) with purchase a SMS to go with it so now you have 120 points for a transport. Then you have to get atleast 6 Firewariors to go with it for 60 more points but if you want to do a proper FoF you need to sink in 100-120 points in FWs or if your going the Pathfinder route you need to sink in 48-96 points.  Dunno about you but I think I would rather have a more duable Wave sperpent for that cost to protect my frigile FWs and pathfinders

Now you have the Hammerhead AKA "Fire Magnet" Hammer heads of beefy comming out of the box with 13/12/10, and BS4 for 90 points, but come with no guns unlike the Devilfish. Also with the hammer head you have 15 points required upgrades (multitracker and Decoy launchers) some people get Target lock so that they can get the most of thier secondary weapon system. Since the hammer head wields the mighty rail which strikes fear into any genral with with mighty 10s and ap1 and awsome 72" range or submunitons most hammerheads spend most of the game either Shaken/stunned/blown up/hiding to get a good shot without having a whole army shoot at them. so with that in mind SMS does come in handy but its game altering.

I wont even touch on Broadsides with SMS's

I would like to see the tau list with 12 Vechicles with 12 SMS's for 2000 points

this is what I come up with:
6X: 6 FW squad 60                           180
    - Devilfish (TA,DL,MT, SMS)120
1080
3X: 4 pathfinders 48
    - Devilfish (TA,DL,MT, SMS)120
504
X3 ION head 130
    - SMS, MT,DL
390
Thats 1974 points not even enough for a commander, and if I were to take out points from upgrades to get a commander I would Never field this list because it cannot deal with any heavy armor.

In conclusion:
SMS's are a very potent tool but they are no more powerful than whirlwind vengence missles, they are just sligtly more accurate with less range and with less potental payload.

**edit** also fluff wise smart missles are basicly Drones with explosives so by mass launching Smart missles (as heavy 4 is a real rapid rate of fire) one smart missle finds a target and communicates this to the other drone crontroled missles and homes in on a target, much like the U.S. Patriot missle defense systems.**edit**

First of all, it doesn't matter that the vehicle the weapon is mounted on isn't cheap...... heck, multli-lasers are mounted on chimeras.... chimeras cost a lot of points... multi-lasers suck. And besides.... the name of the game for tau is point denial. You wouldn't want those vehichles not to be expensive. And you're right.... SMS may only be as powerful as a whirlwind.... but NOT EVERY SPACE MARINE VEHICHLE HAS ONE! The entire game isn't "try to run forward to get to the tau behind the trees, and then have them fly 24" away." The weapon may only be 4 shots.... but it completely denies the opponents shooting phase...... and no one can tell me that isn't over powered.

And is smart missiles are "drones with explosives so by mass launching Smart missles (as heavy 4 is a real rapid rate of fire) one smart missle finds a target and communicates this to the other drone crontroled missles and homes in on a target, much like the U.S. Patriot missle defense systems"........(which sounds very much like something shooting a marker light to light the enemy up for the system)...... and drones are BS 2........ then it would make complete sense for the SMS to be BS 2.

Why bother dealing with enemy armor? They'll never be able to see you to shoot you. Just let them drive around the battlefield while you kill their infanty and are never seen. As far as I'm concerned, playing against the tau players around here is a giant waste of time.... as the game turns into "Lets see how many guard/sm the tau can turn in 6 turns with SMS's"...... it also doesn't help that we always fight in densely packed jungles... heh.  

The list I've been having to deal with is 2 hammerheads, 6-8 devilfish..... and 2-3 units of battlesuits all with TL rapid firing plasma.  

You are seriously having difficulties beating a list with over 1000 points of non-scoring units? What missions are you playing?

"the name of the game for tau is point denial. You wouldn't want those vehichles not to be expensive. And you're right.... SMS may only be as powerful as a whirlwind.... but NOT EVERY SPACE MARINE VEHICHLE HAS ONE! The entire game isn't "try to run forward to get to the tau behind the trees, and then have them fly 24" away." The weapon may only be 4 shots.... but it completely denies the opponents shooting phase...... and no one can tell me that isn't over powered." -Angron

Tell me this what happens if Tau units are out in the open? They get shot to shreds, why? well because Tau units arent that tough and Tau units are relitively expensive, if Tau couldn't play point denial game they would not be a compeditive army, nor would they be fun to play.

I'm sorry I cannot concede this agrugement to you since spending that many points to get SMS to be your primary weapon will in practice generate you more wins that a tradional mech tau list that may have at most 3-4 SMS depending on points. It is true that way of the Tau is shot and point denial but there are more effective ways than this, and since I have yet to see a Tau GT list that has 10-12 SMS in it.

Since I keep reading guard referances in your posts I assume your a guard player, and I can tell you I can think of many ways to wipe out tightly packed guard faster than point denail SMS. Also if this is a problem you keep running into instead of finding a way to "balance" a an army you have problems with ask for help with ways to stop those pesky SMS toating tanks.

SMS overpowered???? nnaaahhh

Just bear in mind that Tau don't like close combat so rely on their high powered weapons to keep enemies at bay. Thats why Tau lack any suitable means to give out high strength attacks in CC. 5 is the highest I know of for Tau units, and 6 is the highest I know of for Kroot.

So when that big Eldar Wraithlord comes bearing down on the Tau and all their weapons have failed them, its time to start rolling lotsa 6's in close combat.

In every game I play as either Tau or as Space marines vs Tau, the SMS has proven to be a powerful cost effective weapon that is well balance. Most units hit on 4's anyway unless they have targetting arrays.

My advice, is to do what everyone else does when they play against me and pile lotsa close combat troops into the Tau lines and take out all those pesky critters hehe.

SMS's are not overpowered IMHO

I agree with hellsguardian, SMS are not overpowered.

Sirslamb said the following:

Unless if I am horribly mistaken, Tau tanks can't move 24" a turn. Devilfish and Hammerheads are classified as tanks, so they can only move 12". They have upgrades that you purchase that lets them shoot as if they're a fast vehicle, but it doesn't let them move like a fast vehicle. So It's not too hard to use mobility to get shots on them with tanks, and speeders. (If I am wrong about the movement of these vehicles, please let me know, tell me which page of the Tau codex, etc. I'd rather be corrected than play it wrong.)

I play Black Templars and I don't mind facing SMS at all. I've played against Mech Tau before, and there's alot bigger problems to worry about than SMS. Such as Plasma guns from all the crisis suits jumping around, Hammerhead's main gun (ion cannon or railgun...both hurt alot), Fish of Fury firewarriors. SMS is a minor nuisance that makes you pay for playing a purely static army. Pretty much as Hellsguardian316 said before, if you can get assault marines or a chaplain into close combat with Tau, you've got them.

I also play Guard, and while it's difficult to play against Mech Tau, it's not impossible. Bring several basilisks to even the odds on indirect fire. They'll have to bring their vehicles close to be able to use SMS on the basilisks, so as long as you're not in one small area, you should be able to get LOS on them with something to kill them. Autocannons are your best friend when playing against Mech Tau. Every Squad should have one, and as long as you have firing lanes covering the whole board (which you should, with that many models), they have a good chance of losing their tank in exchange for trying to get your basilisk. Infiltrators can help to. I'm not gonna say that playing against Tau is easy with Guard...they're not by a longshot, but it's not impossible.

Skrivus, spot on with everything.

Tau vehicles that are applicable can access the Tau vehicle armory and add a vehicle mounted Multi-tracker. Devilfish, Hammerhead and Skyray are all classed as Skimmer Tanks and Tanks can only move 12" as per Tank rules etc etc

The Multi-tracker allows the vehicle to fire using the fast vehicle table for shooting instead of the tanks table for shooting. The actual movement rate is 100% unaffected.

The only vehicle in the Tau arsenal that can move 24" is the Pirana.

 

If I happen to know that I'm facing Tau then I gear my Space Marines to be Fast and mobile, Whirlwind for indirect fire, scouts with snipers to pin fire warriors. Command squad and assualt marines for close combat and dreadnoughts and speeders to flank the Tau lines.

With a setup like this I easily get into Tau lines and sweep across their fire bases. SMS don't help them in the slightest once I'm dug in.

"The biggest Gun in the galaxy won't help when the enemy is smashing your head in with a giant rock" Very true words from BGB

Skrivus is right

Chaos has Defilers and terminators and turboboost, Guard has Basilisk/Griffon, Marines have Whirlwinds / drop pods, Eldar have Falcons, Tyranids have Toughness 6 and Biovores, Necrons have Veil and WBB, Demonhunters and Sisters have guard, Dark Eldar have Web Ways and mobile darklances, Orks have 1 looted vehicle and are probably the worse off but then again agaisnt Mech Tau Orks have an uphill battle.

Almost every Army has a decent counter to SMS and by the way GTs are there wont be that many hiding spots for a SMS Spam army. Hell S5 does nothing whatsoever against armor 12 and above making them usually not as effective.

Yup, I have no problems with SMS being the way that they are. Hell, I'd actually like it if they were about 5 points cheaper. You are sticking it on a fairly expensive tank after all.

Posted By torgoch on 06/10/2007 9:08 AM
You are seriously having difficulties beating a list with over 1000 points of non-scoring units? What missions are you playing?

QFT.

12 Vehicles in a Tau Army?  Was this a mega-battle?

It can be done in a standard org chart providing you don't pimp the vehicles. Otherwise you can't afford a commander.

Of course you'd be stupid not to pimp the vehicles, and if you don't they are not as effective as Angron says.

SMS is mildly overpowered, but only when used in an All-Mech Tau army.

What qualifies for All-Mech? Well, usually it's about 4 Crisis Suits, a Shas'ui (or Shadowsun/Farsight), and at least one Hammerhead. Maybe a stealth team, but everything else gets a Devilfish with SMS and BS4.

Hammerheads draw fire from the Devilfish, and the Devilfish pour the hurt onto the distracted enemy. There are two ways to deal with this:

Take enough anti-tank to be assured of downing a Devilfish or two per turn. A devilfish decked out with SMS and all that jazz carrying a full payload of fire warriors should be a priority target (yes even before a Hammerhead in many cases)

OR

Take enough mobility to get close to the Tau, so that he can't "Dance" your army. This is the main strength of the SMS-abusing lists, is the ability to fire at you while you have no chance of ever catching up your harassers. You need to either have enough anti-tank to blow him out of the sky, or enough mobility to play hide-and-seek with him. If you're lacking either of these things, you're not playing a properly balanced or competitive list in the first place.

Rest assured that the SMS-abusing tactic is pretty much the last hope the Tau have--it's arguably their strongest army build and the Tau haven't fared well as of late in Battle Point breakdowns at GTs (I.E. they don't have one of the "strongest" codexes anymore)