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Unless I'm missing something in the DA codex (and I easily could be) I don't see any specific rule allowing ICs to join units and arrive with them via Drop Pod. Since DA characters aren't actually attached to their Command Squads, this isn't even an option for them.

Now, the online GW rulebook FAQ allows characters coming in from reserve who arrive on the same turn as a unit to come onto the table embarked on the vehicle. However, this doesn't help Drop Pods since nothing gives the character the ability to start in Reserve in the first place.

This is why, by the RAW, Emperor's Champions in a BT army haven't been able to arrive via Drop Pod.

Now that DA characters (and presumably BA characters too) are all now suffering this same fate, if you were a tournament organizer how would you rule on this issue?

Would you rule by the RAW and not allow the Emperor's Champion, BA & DA characters to arrive via Drop Pod (i.e. they have to be deployed normally)?

Would you make an exception just for DAs and BAs and leave the poor Emperor's Champion out in the cold?

Or would you just make a blanket ruling allowing ICs in all Space Marine armies to join any unit in a Drop Pod before the game (assuming there is space), allow a single Reserve roll for them all, and allow them all to then arrive via Drop Pod?

(BTW, keep in mind that Jervis ruled in his unofficial DA FAQ the latter: that DA characters could join a unit in a Drop Pod and then one reserve roll is made for them all).

 

What say you?

 

 

If I were running the event, I would go by what Jervis said and apply that to all SM armies. There we do know the "intent" rather than just assuming it.

And I don't think you are missing anything.  There is a rule specifically allowing IC's in terminator armor to join Termi squads, but nothing about other IC's.  The only thing mentioned is that Terminator armor counts as 2 models for Drop Pods.  Since the only way to get a terminator into a Drop Pod is with an IC the intent seems to be to allow them to join.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Just for the sake of fairness and fluff I would make the blanket ruling, but not only for SM's, but any I.C. in a similar situation. It just seems right that a model with the ability to join any unit during a game (and therefor use it's transports) should be able to start that way as well. This is especially true in light of the escalation rules where it's most advantageous to have your entire army start the game either in reserve or on the board.

Posted By yakface on 06/19/2007 4:26 PM

 Or would you just make a blanket ruling allowing ICs in all Space Marine armies to join any unit in a Drop Pod before the game (assuming there is space), allow a single Reserve roll for them all, and allow them all to then arrive via Drop Pod?

(BTW, keep in mind that Jervis ruled in his unofficial DA FAQ the latter: that DA characters could join a unit in a Drop Pod and then one reserve roll is made for them all).

 What say you?

What you said...  Any other ruling is a bit asinine IMHO.

IIRC, doesn't the most recent FAQ state that you work out which unit characters will start the game attached to? I dont have the FAQ here but i seem to recall a passage that says you can choose to have IC's join units before the game starts and can enter with them in their transport.

Is my memory being faulty on that?

You have the majority of it correct however it says that you have to roll for the IC separately and can then add the IC to any unit that is deploying one that turn.

The contradiction here is that there would be no rule allowing the IC on it's own to be kept in reserve for a drop pod assault in the first place... since IC's can't use the DP on their own they would have no reason to be held in reserve unless the mission uses that rule...

...which would mean that if the mission also uses the reserves rule you should be able to keep the IC in reserve and if a DP becomes available the same turn as the IC, you would then be able to put the IC in the DP as long as there is room.

Ah, ok. That is pretty lame.

I would say on principle that yes, a SM character would remember to get in the stupid drop pod before they get ready for battle instead of strolling on to the battle field by himself.

But as far as rules go, i can see the predicament. I guess it would just come down to a house rule. and to answer Yak's question, i would have to vote yes, they could join the unit before hand and come in with one reserve roll. Anything else just doesnt not make much sense and only detracts from the game.

I agree. IMO allowing the IC to start the game inside another unit would then allow the IC to use th transport option the unit has purchased, as long as there is room. If it is a drop pod then the IC rides along in the drop pod much the same is if they selected a Rhino or Landraider.

Since it's the transport that is doing to dropping this would not contradict the rule where IC's cannot use the special rules applied to a unit (like infiltrating) unless the IC has that rule as well. Forgive my horrid paraphrasing of that, I don't not have the BBoR with me at work, but I pray that you all understand my meaning.

Ah but wait, what if i put an IC with a jump pack attached to a tac squad in a drop pod, dropped them in, next turn detached the IC and let him run rampant through a gunline? that is pretty insane.

For that matter, with the same logic, why couldnt you attach an IC with a jump pack to a Termie squad, deepstrike them together and do the same thing?

I have to be wrong in that. Does anyone know of a rule that prohibits those types of action?

That a trick question?

 

What I mean is the part about the Jump Pack in a transport... for some reason, that doesn't seem legal. Maybe it's an old feeling from 3rd.

But I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do the latter... since both the Terms and the IC are able to 'deepstrike'. Seems fine.

Nope, i may just be really dumb and not remembering a very obvious rule prohibiting that from happening.

Is there a rule disallowing an IC with a jump pack getting into a Pod?

That's what I was thinking myself... but some reason I seem to be spacing it out but I believe there is a rule preventing any model with a Jump Pack getting into a transport.

 

But I see nothing that would prevent a Jump Pack IC 'deepstriking' in with a unit of Terminators. There is nothing preventing this even though one is teleporting on the field and the other is coming in from a T-Hawk... *mode* of 'deepstriking' is not factored in. The fact that both the IC and the Terms CAN Deepstrike (and both make their reserve roll on the same turn) is the only requirement.

Even aside from the propsed situation of attaching a character to a sqaud, could you put a IC with a jump pack plus his command squad into a drop pod? that would give the squad a lot more reach to engage enemy units on the charge, plus perform multiple charges.

My friend runs an infiltrating command squad with a chappy with a jump pack to get an extra few inches of reach and set up a first turn charge.

The unit infiltrates 12" away from an enemy unit, they move forward 6", the chappy jumps 2" beyond the furthest model, plus has an extra 1" for his base, then charges 6" giving you about a 15" range, easily enough to engage an enemy unit and get a first turn charge. It doesnt always work if you are in difficult terrain, and often the chappy clears his kill zone leaving him out in the open, but against high Ld enemies not likely to run away, it gets them locked into combat right away.

You could use an IC in a pod with a jump pack to do the same thing and give you more reach out of the pod, or detach him and let him run rampant.

I cant think of a rule off hand that prohibits a model with a jump pack getting in a pod. I could be totally wrong though.

I don't have the rules in front of me, but I think the Jump Pack item disallows use of transports. Otherwise, you could do the same thing with a Rhino.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

yeah, i cant think of a reason why a Jump pack IC couldn't attach to a termie unit and deepstrike with it, unless there is a rule that i cant remember. If a character can opt to join a unit before the game starts and there is no restriction on types of units joining each other (such as no power armor characters joining termie squads, which i dont think there is) and they both have the deep strike special rule then i dont see why they can't both enter together.

You probably wouldnt make any friends if you did this though.

But you may be right about the no JP's in transports rule. I dont have my book here so i could be totally wrong on that one.

yeah, the more i think about it, the more i think that is the case.

People would have done that long ago if that was the case.

See the problem with what your friend is doing is the rule that states a unit moves as fast as it's slowest member.

Therefore the Chappy, regardless of Jump Pack would only be able to move up to 6" not 6" +2" to remain in coherency.

Plus the whole "he has an extra 1" for his base" would implicate that your friend is measuring the movement distance from the front of the base at the start of the move and then ending with the rear of the base touching the 6" mark.... which is a big no no.

Ill have to look that up. I did not know that, but it makes sense. and the unit was the epitomey of bending the rules as it stood.

Also, the extra inch comes from measuring the 2" squad coherency distance from the front of the furthest squad member's base to the back of the chappies base, the chappy actually only moves 9" from fron to front of his base, within the 12" the jump pack allows.

yep, in that situation the chappy cant use his jump pack unless every man of the command squad is killed off.

Page 62 of the rulebook specifies that only infantry may embark on a transport unless the transport's rules specify otherwise.

Models with Jump Packs are Jump Infantry and therefore are not allowed to embark on vehicles.

Thanks Yak, I knew it was there, just didn't have it readily available.

well that settles that. It was a pretty beardy idea anyway, probably better that it can't be done.

Yak, what do you think about an IC with a jump pack joining a termie squad, is that permissable?

Posted By Reecius on 06/20/2007 12:52 PM

Yak, what do you think about an IC with a jump pack joining a termie squad, is that permissable?

I don't see why not.

 

But back to the original premise, it seems that most people agree that if they were running a tournament they'd allow characters to attach to units arriving via drop pod ahead of time.

But if you do so, isn't it unfair to other characters in other races (or even non-drop pod space marine armies)? Would you also make a blanket ruling that any character can join any unit before the game and have them all make a single reserve roll together? Or would you allow this ability to be reserved only for Drop Pod units?

Cause we're talking about a serious change in the reserve rules here.

 

 

I would have to vote yes, it would have to be a blanket rule for all races, otherwise it is an unfair ruling for other armies.

What about this situation.  As Imperial Guard I take the Drop Troops doctrine.  I also take a Witch Hunter Cannoness with Jump Pack as an allied HQ.  Could I attach the Cannoness to an Imperial Guard Infantry Squad before the game and elect to have the unit Deep Strike with the Drop Troops doctrine?

Since both units can deepstrike and you buy into JJ's interpretation of the rules, then i would say yes.

If an IC with a jump pack comes in with termies then do they all benefit from T.Hommers?

That gets pretty strange.

A chappy with L.Claws deepstriking with termies can be devastating to shooty units. and after deepstriking can reach all over an enemies deployment zone, plus cant be shot thanks to being in a unit.

Although you can already do the same thing right now with an assault squad so its not all that strange, its just being able to attach the character to the unit that makes it so powerful as he cant be targeted when he deepstrikes with his squad, then he can sperate.

But even then, some armies would not benefit from this change; and some would barely benefit. What if we made a 'fair' ruling that rending worked on a 5 or 6; it would apply to all armies equally.....

Yak,

   If I were running a tournament and this came up before hand, I would make the following rule addition:

 

Any independent character may be attached to any squad with a transport, as long as there is room within the transport, and the two choices make a single roll for reserve.  This must be stated in the army list and may not be changed between games.

With escalation, if  you go mechanized anything, you could end up with a lone character (farseer on foot, SM character, etc.) facing 1500 points of the opponent.  Especially with the new list lay out, this goes a long way to adding flexibility to lists.

 

So yes, I would have it apply to BTs, SMs, and everything else.

 

 

I agree w/ PapaNurgle. Plus its silly to think that a IC is going to "miss the bus" and walk on in a mech army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings