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Looking for some feedback from DE players on some common DE units and options.  I'm just starting a DE list, and it seems there are several decent paths to take on different unit types, so I'm curious what the Dakka approach is.

For example, the HQs.  The gear taken on arcons is pretty standard, although it does seem some tool them for hunting anything (agonizer) or MEQs (power weapon or punisher).  The bigger question seems to be whether to let him run around on a jetbike or in a raider with a retinue.   I've also seen some favorable comments regarding incubi, but damn they're expensive....they'd better be for their cost.  I'm usually a fan of more weaker units than a few strong ones, so incubi seem too expensive for me.

Elites seem pretty clear cut.  Grotesques and Mandrakes seem to be the least preferred, with wyches and warp beasts more common.  Only question there really is numbers of wyches per raider, and what to arm the leader with (agonizer I'd think).

Troops have a few options.  Most lists take a few squads of dismounted guys with 2 DL for fire support.  After that, some go with larger squads advancing on foot, or raider squads.  Would you look at upgrading leaders in these squads with agonizers to try for melee, or go for splinter cannons and blasters for short-ranged firefights?

I think ravagers are the way to go on heavy support.  The Talos is slow and under-armed, and the list doesn't need much more melee support, and scourges....Ravagers bring up the question of DL vs Disintegrator distribution throughout the list.  It seems most people stick DLs on everything except the ravagers, which get the dissies.  Obviously the dissies are great for killing deepstrikers, but other than that, are units usually bunched up enough to take advantage of the blast template?  The DL is more versatile and cheaper, so I'm wondering if it may be the better choice?

As for fast attack, hellions are worth considering, but reaver bikes may be.  There appear to be two common configurations: 2 bikes with 2 blasters for sniping/harrassment, or larger squads to accompany a bike-mounted arcon for assaults. 

That's the overall impression I've received so far, along with a few questions raised while trying to figure out the "whys".  Any feedback and guidance would be appreciated.

I guessing you are doing the Basic DE list but my core Army is pretty simple:

Archon
Dracite
3 Units of 8 Wyches on raider
4 Squads of warriors with 2 Darklance
2 Raider Squads
2 Ravagers

The list is pretty self explanatory and basically you can find this list in damn near any compeitive DE army. Wyches, Warriors, and Archons.

PM me if you want a detailed strategy because its very long.

That list, for example...would you have the two HQs running around independent on jetbikes, or dismounted with the two raider squads? Would your raider squads have squad leaders with agonizers, or splinter cannon and blaster? Or both?

Do you keep DLs on the raiders and put disintegrators on the ravagers?

I think I know the basics on what DE lists comprise of, I'm looking for the various tweaking options people choose, and the thought players put behind them. Being a less-played army, there aren't too many tactics threads or battle reports to read, but I'd like to learn what I can ahead of time to minimize learning through trial and error.

Two HQs running with the Wych Squads as bikes they usually dont benefit from the 12" assault drug roll that you will often need.

DL on Raiders and Disentegrators on Ravagers

Now a real gamesaver on my vehicles is the Horrorfex that is a defensive weapon so you can shoot a DL and a Horrorfex and the chance to pin a unit works out great as it usually denys a unit a shooting phase and keeps your stuff alive. Raider squads is Blaster and Splinter Cannon. No need for agonizer on what is otherwise piss poor assault troops.

  Web Ways are something that is a 50/50 tactic as it keeps your raiders from being blown to bits but at the same time you also have reserves rolls with the possiblity of having none of your units come in when you want them to or come in at a wrong time. I see Web Ways as one of the few really good counters to a Drop Pod army. I dont have any in my list but I am still playtesting although the reserves hurts me as usually my rolls are sub standard.

@thehod, I think you are gravely mistaken about WWP's as a way of dealing with drop pods. At Adepticon this year in the team event, Team So Cal GW played their all drop podding army against a DE WWP army. Team So Cal went second and simply landed their drop pods on top of the already placed WWP's thus blocking the WWP and stopping all the reserves from coming in. It was an absolute massacre.

My RTT DE list has:
3 squads of 8 wyches with a succubus (agonizer) in raiders
Archon on jetbike
4 10 man warrior squads with 2 DL's
2 12 man warrior squads with 2 DL and a champ with a WWP
3 Ravagers with DL and 2 Disintegraters
1 squad of 5 warpbeasts

I played against a DE army this last week that used the Hoorofex trick and it was great, I will definitely be adding that to the list.

BTW, I am going to be selling my DE army soon, PM me if interrested.

Darrian

Here's what my DE army has evolved into:

dracon
5 warrors w/ 2 dark lances
raider

drachite w/ combat drugs, agonizer, plasma grenades, trophy rack, splinter pistol, hell mask
8 wyches w/ wych weapons, plasma grenades, 2 blasters
succubus w/ agonizer
raider for above units

9 wyches w/ wych weapons, 2blasters, plasma grenades
succubus w/ agonizer
raider for above squad

9 wyches w/ wych weapons, 2blasters, plasma grenades
succubus w/ agonizer
raider for above squad

9 wyches w/ wych weapons, 2blasters, plasma grenades
succubus w/ agonizer
raider for above squad

5 warrors w/ 1 darklance
sybarite w/ portal
raider w/ disintegrator

5 warrors w/ 1 darklance
sybarite w/ portal
raider w/ disintegrator

6 warrors w/ 1 darklance
raider w/ disintegrator

6 warrors w/ 1darklance
raider w/ disintegrator

6warrors w/ 1 darklance
raider w/ disintegrator

5 warrors w/ 1 darklance
raider w/ disintegrator


It comes out to just under 2,000 pts, and has a nice combination of shooting and close combat units. The warriors will be on the ground and able to shoot from turn 1 while I use their raiders to winkle out and hit enemy units on the flanks from a distance. Hopefully I'll get some good reserve rolls for the wyches so they can come in and do their thing to put the final nail in where ever they're needed.
The way I prevent drop pod armies from blocking me off is to surround where I plan to place my webway with Dark Eldar units and go from there.  Another way to counter drop podders is to place my webways near the table edges some distance apart(I always take two).  It takes a brave or reckless opponent to try to land on a portal close to a table edge since they can end up off the table and out of play a good part of the time. Granted, I run the risk of losing my webway units to incoming fire, but it's a shell game for my opponent to try to pick out which ones they are. The only time I've ever been skunked using a webway by any opponent, drop pod armies included, was back in the day when I used bigger warrior squads and got stuck on a table with no terrain facing an entire IG army that got first turn. Needless to say, the game was over before I even got to roll any dice.  To be honest, some of my best games are with drop pod armies as it can turn into almost a chess match trying to out think my opponent, and it does frustrate them if I put a webway near the table edge and they deviate off the table while trying to keep it closed..

Interesting list, Relapse. Why the lack of any heavy support options?

Also interesting to see such small squads carrying the webway portals. I'd think they're rather fragile, but it sounds like you've done fairly well avoiding being shutdown, so it must not be too big a problem. You said the warriors start dismounted...does that include the WWP squads? Do you just drop them where they deploy, or advance somehow generally?

All squads with warriors start dismounted so that they can get their licks in from turn one or drop portals(wyches are fast and most times can be in CC on the turn they come through the portal) while the raiders start flanking and shooting. As far as small squads go, I find that the risks pretty much turn out a bit less than having just two or three huge squads of warriors with webways. With big squads, my opponent has no problem figuring where the webways are while with a lot of small squads it's anyone's guess, plus if I'm against a really shooty army, a small squad is easier to hide so they can do the webway deployment.

In my list, a lot of raiders make up for the absence of ravagers because I get full firing with the benefit of a skimmer moving 12" every turn. I've run other DE lists and this one delivers more punch from shooting while giving the mobility I want than anything I've used with ravagers. There are other lists out there that can maybe give more shooting, but they lack the close combat that my wyches can add. Another plus is that I don't lose the extra points a ravager costs when it gets shot down, and I still have a lot of big guns left.

Posted By Darrian13 on 07/01/2007 1:08 PM
@thehod, I think you are gravely mistaken about WWP's as a way of dealing with drop pods. At Adepticon this year in the team event, Team So Cal GW played their all drop podding army against a DE WWP army. Team So Cal went second and simply landed their drop pods on top of the already placed WWP's thus blocking the WWP and stopping all the reserves from coming in. It was an absolute massacre.

 

I know that game as they belonged to the same gaming group as I. Learning from that mistake I cover the webway with warriors to prevent Drop pods from dropping on to them.  The So Cal guys were awesome to play and great guys to talk to and they are welcome for drinks anytime after a GT with me.

  Horrorfexes are a great weapon a friend implemented and I saw win games when he borrowed my army for a few months. He is probably the best player I know and the only reason you dont see him win GTs is because he cant afford most of the trips. He goes by Darkness on this board.

I was one of the DE players in question, so I feel I should comment.  To reiterate thehod, team SoCal were an awesome team, and the game we played was my favorite of the event.  We gambled on our strategy, lost the round, and spent two hours at the bar laughing.  It was great.

However, our loss was due primarily to scenario special rules, specifically 'reverse escalation'.  95% of the time, drop pods are a walk in the park for Web way.  Let me lay it out for you.

As in this game, Drop pods almost always choose to go second, it's standard strat for them.  If we had gotten the choice, we would have had them go second as well.

Our turn 1:  2 DE warrior squads chill.
Their turn 1:  nothing happens

Our turn 2:  roll for reserves, getting half the army available (read the Portal rules, it specifically allows for you to roll, and 'hold back' units until they become available through an open portal).  During the turn, we open both portals.  Nothing comes on though, because the portals weren't open at the start of the turn.

Their turn 2:  Half their pods drop on average. All they have as targets are two DE squads.  Slaughter and enjoy.  As a mention, the Web way portal itself is considered impassable terrain ("treat as a board edge" - this is also how the Adepticon FAQ ruled it), so you can't bock it by lading on top of it.  Furthermore, all our stuff is in skimmers, so they can fly over enemy troops surrounding the portal.

Our turn 3:  We roll for reserves again.  On average we should have 5/6ths of our army in reserve coming out.  That's including 6 wyche squads, two archytes, two ravagers, and a partridge in a pear tree.  They can then eat the half a drop pod army already on the board however they choose.  After a drop podding player loses half his army in one round, it's usually just a mop up affair after that.

Escalation doesn't hurt this strategy at all, because the DE Warriors were the only things starting on the board in the first place.  However, 'reverse escalation' where what's normally held off, is on, and what's on is off, totally messed us up.

We had a choice to make.  We could have put all our raiders on the board.  Let them fly around to get glancing shots, and then watch pods fall down.  They would have dropped the raiders, killing the wyches (6+ armor save with a re-roll to wound = dead wyches), and most of the army likely.  If we had deployed the wyches out of their raiders, they still would have evaporated to bolter fire.

The problem was, our DE Warrior squads with the portals were held off due to the scenario rules.  Alternatively, we took the long shot.  We held to our initial strategy, keeping things in the portal.  We hoped the Warrior squads would come on in turn 2 (which they did), survive a turn (which they didn't), and open their portals.  Another problem was that they couldn't even open their portals on the turn they arrived because you have to open it instead of moving.

It was gamble that payed off.  The game ended quickly, Team SoCal bought us beers, and we laughed heartily.  We lost the game, but had a great time.

But in any other scenario, and any scenario out of the book, I'd bet millions if I were playing a web way army against drop pods.

Cheers.


www.40kwreckingcrew.com

WC_Donovan

      I was a little buzzed during out game against SoCal. They were trying to convince Donovan to start on the board and "Make a game out of it". Due to reduced faculties and the fact they won the year before I thought they were trying to trick us. I figured they were aware that we had little chance either way but that we at least had more of a chance if we could open the portal. The outside of chance of being able to open the portal took our winning chances from 5% to 10%. That might not look like much but as Sklansky likes to say that is a 50% increase!

      It was unlikely we could make a ton of cover saves or they would land few pods on turn 2 but it was a worthwhile risk. The alternative was sitting our wyches in trees hoping to make alot of cover saves. If we used Raiders as screens to keep the Pods from landing in rapid fire range it would be tough to get into more than an assault or two. Notice that if we did make alot of cover saves on Wyches we would have been better off with the Warriors in the first place!

      Apparently though SoCal didn't realize what they would have been in for if it wasn't Reverse Escalation. I must admit though that is a bad mission for Webway DE so we'll probably be playing something else next year if they bring that silly rule back. Sure it's an interesting rule but doesn't it just help Pods, Zilla Bugs and Eldar Tanks? Feral Orks are banned so aren't those the strongest armies?

Posted By Ebon on 07/04/2007 12:47 PM

Our turn 3:  We roll for reserves again.  On average we should have 5/6ths of our army in reserve coming out.  That's including 6 wyche squads, two archytes, two ravagers, and a partridge in a pear tree.  They can then eat the half a drop pod army already on the board however they choose.  After a drop podding player loses half his army in one round, it's usually just a mop up affair after that.

And a partridge in a pear tree.  Exalt.

People used to say DE is not competitive but it can give any army a run for the money. I do agree that DE w. or w.o WWP can do excellent against DP Marines. DE are very mobile which can negate the advantage of DPs. Basically once the drop pods have landed DE can immediately redeploy. Drop pods will get in somde rapid-fire but a smart DE player can castle with all his best stuff in the center and beyond 12" range of bolters, melta, and plasma. One of the three armies I lost to with my old school BA DP army was DE and I was not used to their speed and made a lot of tactical mistakes due to this ignorance on my part. I did play the DE again and won but it was still a hard fight right through to the end, plus I had some really awesome dice rolls... for instance, lone techmarine versus an entire squad of Wyches makes all his saves, kills one Wyche, then Wyches break off the table... lone veteran sergeant with power fist charges Talos, Talos wiffs, and sergeant destroys the Talos... all that happened in the last turn too!

Back to tactics - DE have FoF so often Raiders are not a must as many players think. Sure some Raiders are very useful but they do not have to be the backbone of the army. If I were to play DE I would go with the Wyche Cult... maybe if they do get a new codex.

- G

This is another case of people not knowing the FAQ from adepticon.

 

the WWP are considered impassable terrain in the 42 page rules they did. 

The GW FAQ says to consider it a small portion of your board edge, yes it can be surrounded.

My question is how many people believe that you can have a model hanging off the board edge, say a drop pod half on half off the board. what would it be thats right dead...if your off the board your dead right. So that means you cant land on it.

Can skimmers fly over infantry on the board edge, yes so if your portal is surrounded and all you have is skimmers they cant be blocked.

People just dont understand the rules about how they work.

This is another case of people not knowing the FAQ from adepticon.

 

the WWP are considered impassable terrain in the 42 page rules they did. 

The GW FAQ says to consider it a small portion of your board edge, yes it can be surrounded.

My question is how many people believe that you can have a model hanging off the board edge, say a drop pod half on half off the board. what would it be thats right dead...if your off the board your dead right. So that means you cant land on it.

Can skimmers fly over infantry on the board edge, yes so if your portal is surrounded and all you have is skimmers they cant be blocked.

People just dont understand the rules about how they work.

Either by GW's FAQ or Adepticon's, it's pretty clear thant a DP army can not drop on the portals to stop them. WWP is a nice counter to DP's, as your playing their game, but can charge when you do, and withhold your reserves as long as possible.

Just to clear up any confusion, during the game in question, the drop pods did NOT cover the portals (at least not in my game, and I'm pretty sure not in the other one as well). We were well aware of the FAQs, and there wasn't any disagreement between the players.

In my game, the portals never opened because the Warrior squads were killed before they had a chance to pop them.

It was a gamble, maybe not the best one, but we had a great time hanging out with team SoCal, and that's what it's all about.

Can't wait for the next Adepticon.

well ill throw in a different slant
i run a strict wytch cult

archyte
shadow field punisher tormentor helm combat drugs animus vitae
wytch retinue succubus either with punisher tormento helm or poison blades
2 blasters
raider
slave snares trophy rack

4-6 wytch squads
6 wytches with succubus either punisher or tormentor helm
2 blasters each squad
raider

2 ravagers 2 dl 1 dis
nightshields

3 warrior squads
2 dl and 2 blasters

whats the point of an agoniser when you can have 20+ blasters and 19 dl what are you worried about?
an agoniser is a wates of points in this configuration

bikes are overpriced for what they can deliver i used to run hellions again they are hit or miss the warrior squads are a better guarentee to get their points back

thats 6 dl you have to avoid or deal with each round

wwp i can take or leave them

i have run the archon inubi army and had some awesome success then i switched to wytch cults and now im running circles around most armies most of the time

Just put skimmers in the WWP and it isn't even an issue. They fly over whatever's trying to block them.

The punisher and the agonizer are both 20 pts, so why not always take the agonizer. Then you don't have to spend the extra points for the tormentor helm.