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Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

The BGB on p. 43 is pretty clear what happens to a unit of necrons that get swept: eliminated with no chance for WBB.  My question is what happens to the already damaged Necrons from that unit?  Are they also removed, or if there is another similar unit within 6" or a tomb spyder within 12", can they attempt self repair. 

I've always played that, no, the entire unit, damaged models and all, get eliminated, but the question came up yesterday so I'm hoping somebody can point me in the right direction.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




The damaged models are removed, but it should really be a very rare occurrence that this happens.  Remember, if no models are in base to base contact, then the winning unit does not get sweeping advance.  This is often overlooked, but very important for Necron players.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Hmm, i don't think I was clear enough. Here's the hypo:

Space marine assault squad charges Necron Warrior squad A, kills 6 of the 10 warriors, the remaining 4 break, are swept and destroyed. There are now 6 damaged necrons, whose unit was destroyed. However, Warrior Squad B is only 4" away from the damaged models, and normally those damaged necrons, if they pass their WBB checks, could join that unit.

Here's a crude diagram:
space marines: M
Warrior A: A
Warrior B: B

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
MMMMMMMMMMM

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Those damaged necrons are still part of squad A. When squad A gets swept, the entire squad is taken out, even the dead ones.
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


The RAW on the whole issue of downed Necrons are rather nebulous, especially when considering the online Necron FAQ.

But basically, even though downed Necrons are essentially ignored for most gameplay purposes they are clearly still associated (a term I use not based on any in-game rule) with their parent unit until they stand back up and join a different Necron unit.

I say this because downed Necron models clearly have to be teleported through a Monolith Portal in order to get a 2nd chance at their WBB roll (something that wouldn't be possible if they weren't associated with their parent unit). Per the Necron FAQ downed Necron models are clearly associated with their parent unit when it falls back and they are dragged along with it.


So although the RAW don't clearly cover this situation, I believe that the only way to be fair and consistent is to assume that any downed Necron models associated with their parent unit are also lost if their parent unit is swept after a combat.

In short, I agree with Coredump here.

I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
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yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Thanks, as always, for your analysis Yak. I've perused your FAQ's and found them to be very well thought out, consistent, and concise.

As for the specific issue, that's the way I've played it, I was just curious what the support for it is. As you both point out, the downed 'crons are clearly affiliated in some way with their original unit. Thanks to everybody.
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




I never really gave this much thought before reading this. I can't remember my Necrons ever getting swept...got to love a 10+ leadership on a basic troop choice.

I don't have my codex at work with me today (Yes, I have it at work more days than my boss would like) but the one rule that comes to mind refers to down Necrons as being ignored for all purposes.

This part is clearly in the rules:

1. Necron is damaged. Is the Necron eleigable for WBB?
    Y: Turn model on side.
    N: Remove from table.
2. Necrons waiting to take a WBB roll are ignored.
3. Combat ends. Loser tests leadership.
4. If Necron unit fails leadership, check for sweeping advance.
    Fall Back: Move the necrons back and "To keep things simple, ...lay them down and move them with the unit...You will then know how many WBB rolls to make at the start of your next turn." (This is from the FAQ. It says nothing about changing the eligibility of the WBB roll. )
    Sweeping advance: Remove standing Necrons.

Now the question is what to do with the markers for Necrons waiting for a WBB role. I say leave then on the table. In fact, moving the markers with a unit could violate another rule in the Necron Codex.

Yak's argument centers around the implied belief that the markers that were moved during the fall back are still part of the unit. However, I can think of one example where they would NOT be part of the unit.

Necron turn 4:
Necron Warrior squad A is in CC with SMs.
Necron Warrior squad B is 4 inches away.

SMs win the combat. The Necrons fall back 6 inches and the SMs consolidate 3 inches.

(At this point the nearest squad to where the models fell is squad B, not squad A. So if they made WBB rolls now, they would go to squad B.)

SM turn 5:
Necron Warrior squad A is wiped out in the shooting phase by a AP3 S 8 Ordnance blast. There is no res orb in range. No WBB for you! The standing models are removed. The markers remain because they are still eligible for a WBB roll as squad B is within 6 inches. But we also know that they would remain even if squad B was not within 6 inches. ;-)
SMs charge Necron Warrior squad B. CC ends with the SMs and squad B locked in CC.

Necron turn 5:
WBB rolls are made and former members of of squad A join squad B.

Comments?
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





I also have to disagree that the models downed before the sweep are lostl. Damaged Necrons do not belong to any unit, they simply join the closest unit when they get back up so the vasy majority of the time that will be the unit they were with before. As soon as those models died in combat they became noting more than debris sitting on the table. I think the FAQ statement that Yak is referring deals with a situation in which the Necron unit falls back without another unit nearby, and therefore moving the downed Necrons along with the falling back unit doesn't consider that there might be a closer unit to where they fell. If there were no other unit, the FAQ methods works just fine.

I wish I had my codex on me today so I could back this up a little better.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Then how do they transport through the monolith? If they are not part of the unit, and not even associated with the unit, then they should not be able to port with the unit.

   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




>> Then how do they transport through the monolith?
>> If they are not part of the unit, and not even associated
>> with the unit, then they should not be able to port with the unit.

Simple, a model is not eligible to be ported thru the monolith until AFTER it has failed a WBB roll. At the time of the roll, you would decide which unit is would have gone to. If that unit is then ported by the monolith, the model that failed the WBB roll gets a chance to go along for the ride. Until a model has tried to make a WBB roll, it is not a part of any unit.
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

Posted By njfed on 07/18/2007 4:31 PM

Simple, a model is not eligible to be ported thru the monolith until AFTER it has failed a WBB roll. At the time of the roll, you would decide which unit is would have gone to. If that unit is then ported by the monolith, the model that failed the WBB roll gets a chance to go along for the ride. Until a model has tried to make a WBB roll, it is not a part of any unit.


That is a lovely idea but it doesn't follow the basic WBB rules laid out in the Necron codex. Downed Necrons do not join a unit until they pass a WBB rule and stand back up. At that point they automatically join the closest Necron unit.

Before the FAQ came out the rules were pretty clear: a downed Necron model was just a marker and wasn't part of any unit until it stood back up and joined a unit.

However, the Necron FAQ makes it clear that there are some cases where downed Necron models are moved along with their unit. Also, the previous RAW interpretation also made the Monolith's portal WBB re-roll kind of pointless as there was technically no way that downed markers could be teleported through the portal (as they weren't technically part of any unit).

Slyde wrote:

I think the FAQ statement that Yak is referring deals with a situation in which the Necron unit falls back without another unit nearby, and therefore moving the downed Necrons along with the falling back unit doesn't consider that there might be a closer unit to where they fell. If there were no other unit, the FAQ methods works just fine.

Why should it matter whether another unit is nearby or not? Either the downed models are just markers and shouldn't be part of any unit until they get back up or downed models are still somehow associated with their original unit until they join another unit. You can't have it both ways.



I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




"That is a lovely idea but it doesn't follow the basic WBB rules laid out in the Necron codex. Downed Necrons do not join a unit until they pass a WBB rule and stand back up. At that point they automatically join the closest Necron unit."

Correct.

"Before the FAQ came out the rules were pretty clear: a downed Necron model was just a marker and wasn't part of any unit until it stood back up and joined a unit."

Correct

"However, the Necron FAQ makes it clear that there are some cases where downed Necron models are moved along with their unit."

No, the FAQ says: "...lay them down and move them with the unit." This is stated as a way to "keep things simple" as if it is a suggestion and not a rule that over rides anything in the codex. It is put forth as a way to remember how many models are eligible for WBB rolls. The rules for which unit the models will join are spelled out elsewhere.

Finally, the FAQ states, "Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to teleport the unit during the current move."

Well, tell us something we don't already know. Which is 'the' unit? You mean the unit the model would have joined if it had made its  WBB roll as stated in the rules? Okay. that makes sense.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





Los Angeles

njfed: Its painfully obvious that "the" unit would be the one they were part of. Unless we are going to get to the point of debating the meaning of the word "the".

**** Phoenix ****

Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. 
   
 
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