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I realize there is a long thread dealing with Lash, but I want to approach it from a different angle. I agree it is a very powerful ability, and probably broken, but I want to try and figure out how bad it will, or won't, be.

For this thread, lets assume that the 2d6" movement follows standard movement phase movement. (with the mentioned restrictions... not off table, no impassable, difficult okay, etc.) So no putting a unit out of cohesion, etc.


I realize all of the bad things that 'can' happen, now lets figure out how likely they are to actually occur in a game.

We have a demon prince+Slaanesh+Lash for 135pts. If we want wings, it is now 155pts.

It has no ranged weapon, but is a beast in CC.
But if it is in CC, it can't use the Lash.
The Lash has a 24" range, and requires LoSIt has a 3+/5+ save.  It has only T5, but no instant death allowed.
It is not an IC, so it can be targetted, it is a monstrous, so no priority checks needed.

The ability to move an enemies models is a very powerful one, is it worth keeping the DP out of CC?
How exposed will you have to make the DP in order to get LoS and be within 24" of your target?
How hard will it be to take down the DP once it exposes itself?

But who says the build has to be like that?  Just because the DP is only a few more points than a sorcerer may not make it THE right choice.  There are other options that could all have potential:

Sorcerer brings the enemy closer so that berserkers can get the charge range, then consolidate into the next squad. 

Sorcerer groups the enemy together for plasma cannon fun.

Sorcerer brings the Power Armoured foe out of cover so that those AP 3 bolters can work magic.

Sorcerer moves the devestators behind cover so that they lose a turn of firing (or will just moving them do this?)

Move stuff out of synapse range, or backwards so that you are not getting killed in h2h.

My point, and I haven't even read the 15 page thread, is that it has so many uses, and they all look pretty powerful.

True, I had not considered the sorcerer... so okay.

All that does is give you a less powerful CC HQ, and save 10 pts.

So now you are spending 125 (145 with wings) for the ability to move enemy units. Being an IC makes it a bit more survivable. But it is only T4, and can be instakilled.

(Rules question: If a psychic power is used in place of shooting, can the IC use the power on one unit, while the rest of the marines shoot at a different unit?)

I know what it *can* do, but what will it take to get the sorcerer within 24" of the Dev squad. It will need to be part of a unit, or have one nearby to keep it from being targetted. It will have to move forward 6-12" at least

Again, if you want to use the power sword, you won't be able to use the Lash next turn. (most likely)

If a unit is moved forward for the beserkers, chances are there will not be a unit close enough to consolidate into. And they can move/assault a max of 12". So you have to line things up pretty well to get this to work optimally. Unless you play with not enough terrain.

I don't even care what model you put this power on. 135 points? 155 points? Dude, the power itself is worth a hundred points. Perhaps that's a bit of an exaggeration, but I think I'd consider paying 100 points just to put it on any other HQ, like a Farseer, Jump Pack Chaplain, whatever. Make it 50 points and it's a total no brainer. It's ridiculous what you can do with it.

1) Assault: Move a unit 2D6" closer to allow your units to assault them. This gives a Winged Prince a 25" range. Not only is that extremely powerful in and of itself, but because you're moving your target in the same turn you assault them, you're going to throw off a lot of opponent's instincts. People who are used to seeing 18" as the safe distance will be off balance. Sure "a good player will be prepared," but the point here is that not only does the Chaos player get more options, but his opponent has to "be prepared" for yet another unusual problem.

2) Pie Plate: Move the target unit into a cluster and nail them with a pie plate. This certainly will require coordination. You have to have the pie plate ready to go... It could miss... But come on. If you pack a unit of basically anything into a tight group and hit it with a pie plate it's dead. One model in 6 will survive.

3) Mind War: Move the target unit so that Oblits can only see one or two models, then smoke them. Take out Power Fists, Lascannons, whatever model in the unit is worth the most. Again this requires some coordination, but who isn't going to take Oblits? And their weapons have plenty of range to do this with ease.

4) Compromise Cover: If an enemy unit is benefitting from terrain (Eldar Pathfiners for example), you just pull them out and shoot them up.

5) Remove Threats: If an enemy unit is coming in to assault, you just move them back away.

6) Waste Turns: Take an enemy unit, particularly a shooty one, and move it behind LOS blocking terrain so it has to spend its turn moving back in.

That's six uses that I can think of off the top of my head. And there's pinning possible at the end of all of them.

Come on.

What's the actual usefulness? It's completely f-ing broken.

Obviously the one glaring weakness of the power is that it doesn't work on vehicles (which comprises the most powerful build out there), but like Phryxis said, the uses are myriad. I would also add this one (which can be a real doosie):

-Last Turn Objective denial. Opponent got a 300 point unit sitting 4" in your deployment zone at the end of the game? Fzorgle! Not anymore.

Imagine how incredibly broken that is. I'm leaning towards sorcerors because as has been said, they are harder to target and thus more likely to survive til the end of the game. A sorceror with wings or a bike is extremely manueverable, can use cover effectively, can get into 24" LOS relatively easily and can Lash snipe units. He's not exactly a pushover in combat either. It is worth 145 points for the simple chance of denying an opponent a table quarter/objective, never mind how much he actually kills. Two sorcerors can more than make up their admittedly steep price. If you can effectively remove two units from the game for 5 out of 6 turns, that's gold.

I predict a large increase in not only hood/ROwarding, but also in suicide cruise missile units who are there to fry sorcerors. Piranhas come to mind but multi-melta speeders, drop vets for IG with meltas, demo charges, etc.. Basically anything that can get real close and has strength 8 or more.

I think it is so powerful that I am thinking about the list in terms of taking advantage of the power- what units will benefit the most, what weaknesses do I need to look out for etc etc.

I can't wait to try it.

To be fair, for all our *female dog*ing GW finally made a NEW rule. And it can't be _that_ broken altho paying 50 points for mark + power wouldn't be unreasonable. Neither limiting it to 1 per army. I think it's the fact you can take two that makes it so nasty. Presumably you could move one squad closer, and then move the same squad closer AGAIN, giving you a first/second turn assault to just rip into one squad. Which would then do a good job of leapfrogging those Berzerkers up the board, giving them an early assault move + a massacre/consolidate.

Demonprinces are T5 W4 5++ they aren't that tough to take out, this isn't Nidzilla with a whole army of them.

I'm looking at it for more conservative uses. Again, GW appears to have written a vague rule (shocker, I know).

However, I'm thinking of a shooting style army that keeps the enemy at arms length. I think Centurian99 proved the lethality of a Genesteeler rush. Don't let them get close... Simply move units away from you or pull models out of cover to be shot to death. I can only imagine the brutality of that in CoD.

The bunching of models? I'm thinking that will be quite difficult to accomplish. Say you roll 7" of movement. I'm still trying to figure out how easy it will be to move each model 7" to where they end up in a bunched up formation. I keep reading this and I'm thinking people are believing they can move the models less than what was rolled, which is not how it reads.

But, my Chaos army will have a Sorcerer on a bike (most likely) to act as my buffer.


And my Eldar army already has Eldrad....

Sarigar, bunching a whole unit will be hard, but bunching, say, 4-5 models in a unit is easy, and that's all you need for a devastating plascannon blast. Any more than that wouldn't do you much good anyway, unless you have pie plates (which most people won't, since that means less space for oblits)..

I agree 100%. I'm not hearing rave reviews about the rest of the list, but with this power I think you can build a killer list which simply sucks against anything that can stop psychic powers consistently.

It's as I said in another thread on this subject, you're looking at a power so incredibly poorly thought out that it not only creates cookie-cutterism in the Chaos lists, it will create cookie-cutterism in everyone else's list to shut it down.

I'm thinking Sorcerors on bikes is a very good bet, Chaos bikes are actually pretty good (or were), and they can go 24" to really set up some Fzorgle work. In HS you'd have Defilers, Oblits or Vindicators. I think you'd basically be building an Iron Warriors plus Fzorgle list. Making up for the nerf to IWs with the brokenness of Fzorgle.

It's really a spectacular thing. Take away a top tier list (Iron Warriors) and replace it with another top tier list (Iron Fzorgle), but one that's far more cheesy and gimmicky. I love it.



That's like saying it's her eyes that make Jessica Alba hot. Sure. That and... Well, everything else about her. Jessica Alba is to hot like Fzorgle is to GW failing at life.

You can take two. You can use it to kill whole squads. You can use it to charge on turn 1. You can use it to pick off high point value models. You can use it to take squads out of the game for a turn. You can use it to win objective based games on the last turn. Any one of those makes it nasty. All of them combined makes it the most laughable attempt at rules authoring in... Well... In the last few months, because the people GW is putting in charge of this stuff are, as a wiser man than I once said, speds.



Uhhh, very? Very very? All they have to do is be under a pie plate.

As far as how it reads, it actually does read that you can move them "less" insofar as they can move in a curve, or back and forth, or whatever you choose to do with them. That's the RAW.

Now, that said, and given how obviously incompetent GW is, I think you're right that they INTEND for you to have to move the full distance. Sometimes they say "up to" and here they don't say that. Unfortunately their confusion over what words mean, and what their rules do in various situations, doesn't change what the actual RAW of movement is.



Actually, I think you're writing the sweet new Iron Fzorgle list. I was thinking a pie plate would be the best option, but you're right, if you can bunch up a cluster of models and drop 3x Plasma Cannon shots on them, it'd be just as good as a battle cannon, and in fact better on Terminators.  With a pie plate, you can only get one hit per model.  With some good rolls, you can use three blast templates to get MORE hits than there are models in the squad.  Still only a 1 in 6 chance to live...  Neat.

So now we know. HS is maxed out Oblits. It's only fitting since it's much more cookie-cutter than having some mix of HS.

I think we need to start doing hidden camera interviews with Jervis and Thorpe. People need to corner them and then ask them why they're so godawful incompetent, then post the video on the internet.

Honestly, the reason I'm so pissed at them right now is because they forgot to write it so that Fzorgle allows all Obliterators in your list to re-roll misses on a turn when it was used.

Posted By Sarigar on 08/12/2007 9:30 PM

The bunching of models? I'm thinking that will be quite difficult to accomplish. Say you roll 7" of movement. I'm still trying to figure out how easy it will be to move each model 7" to where they end up in a bunched up formation. I keep reading this and I'm thinking people are believing they can move the models less than what was rolled, which is not how it reads.

Right, it doesnt say "up to X Inches" it says move them x inches. I agree there.

Lets say the roll of 2D6 is 9 for this example.

Whats to stop someone from moving a model 5" forward, 2" backwards then 2" forwards again?

Models with the "Turboboost" USR and Skimmer Moving Fast rules are the only things that I know of that specifically deny being able to do  a similar maneuver. (I.e. these are the only two instances of such movement being disallowed.)

Even then, units using "Turboboost USR and vehicles using the Skimmer Moving fast rule may still basically end their move in nearly any place they want within their maximum movement range, the qualifying prerequisite is that the unit/vehicle has to be "X inches" away from the position where its movement originated from. (18" for units Turboboosting and 6+" for Skimmers Moving Fast)

If we are to assume (as the OP of this threads opines) that the Lash of Fzorgle follows the normal movement rules, then it is quite acceptable to also assume that whilst following the normal rules, you may move a unit however the hell you damn well please, as long as the unit ends it's movement within a 2" chain of coherency.

All rules are satisfied, none are broken.

This means 5" forward, 2" backwards and 2" forwards again. Or moving the unit "up to" the distance rolled on 2D6.

In closing, forcing your enemies units to tightly huddle together so that blast markers, ordnance markers to have maximum efficacy or even a conga-line for  template weapons is very legally valid.

Back on topic

To me, this is a power more readily abusable by placing it on sorcerors than the ubiquitous Deamon Princes. This allows the very shooty Emperors Children to have their way (as it were) with the enemy by controlling them with the Allure of Slaanesh.  The possibilities for using this Psychic power are only constrained by the lengths of stupidity your opponent has in placing a unit within 24" of a sorceror.

This power makes sorcerors into Maestros of Submission to the will of the Lord of Oblique and Numinous Pleasures.

As broken and cheesy as I view this ability, again, I also view it as very very fluffy.

(snip)

I had a long reply going, but decided to just give the summary.

I know it is a very powerful ability. I just get the feeling it isn't as bad as it seems. I know the possibilities are endless.... but I just get a feeling that *in play*, it won't be quite so problematic. Either because there will be counters, or because being in LoS and within 24" means you are also subject to attack.

I don't know, and the next several months may prove me wrong, and it totally Bah-roken!! But I still feel it won't be that bad...

Now, I sure hope you can't use it twice, on the same unit, on the same turn... (But I see nothing stopping that...)

i disagree with using it in combination with obliterators

for the two sorcerers and the 9 oblits thats 1000pts

the 675 for 3 vinicators and 2 sorcerers frees up a lot more points for marines

Posted By Hellfury on 08/13/2007 1:09 AM

Posted By Sarigar on 08/12/2007 9:30 PM

The bunching of models? I'm thinking that will be quite difficult to accomplish. Say you roll 7" of movement. I'm still trying to figure out how easy it will be to move each model 7" to where they end up in a bunched up formation. I keep reading this and I'm thinking people are believing they can move the models less than what was rolled, which is not how it reads.

Right, it doesnt say "up to X Inches" it says move them x inches. I agree there.

Lets say the roll of 2D6 is 9 for this example.

Whats to stop someone from moving a model 5" forward, 2" backwards then 2" forwards again?

Exactly.  When you have to move a model around an obstruction, how do you measure how far the model moved?  Distance from start point to end point?  Or distance along the path taken?  If you move a model in a circle (around an imaginary obstruction) how do you measure how far the model moved?

Posted By Phryxis on 08/13/2007 12:30 AM
Jessica Alba is to hot like Fzorgle is to GW failing at life.

I certainly wish I had Slaaneshi powers with which to Fzorgle Jessica Alba into a position where I could best cover her with shots from my plasma cannon...

Oh jeez I'm such a dork.

Posted By Phryxis on 08/13/2007 12:30 AM
Jessica Alba is to hot like Fzorgle is to GW failing at life.

I certainly wish I had Slaaneshi powers with which to Fzorgle Jessica Alba into a position where I could best cover her with shots from my plasma cannon...

 

Exalt!!

Aside from performing unspeakable nasties on Jessica Alba, you could also use it to push assault targets closer to one another so you'll increase your chances of consolidating into a unit rather than being hung out to dry.

10 man dev squad with 4 Missile launchers, push the 6 bolters out of LOS and shoot the missiles out of the unit. Be sure to watch your back on the way to your car after the game, and never leave your minis unattended.

I haven't gotten a look at the new Codex just yet, but is there a Chaos power that lowers Leadership at all? If so, I suspect the most stable use of Fzorgle will be to have Sorc's keep assault units at bay and clustered, with the lowering of Ld making pinning more frequent. the advantage is you do not have to put your salty sorc's into as much danger, while keeping your shooty Oblits/Noise Marines/Rubric Marines safe.
I think first turn charges will be the other popular use, but I also think the use will be more easily foiled by deployment, and thus will be less popular than the Untouchable Super Shooty configuration.

I kind of think this ability would better suit if it moved the units based on a scatter die 1 or 2 d6, and then pinning. Then your opponant wouldn't be touching your models, or able to put them in a dangerous formation. You would just move your men in the direction indicated in a "hall way", much like when falling back.
I just thank God Chaos can't take Culluxis (sp) assassins. The last thing you would need is every unit within X being at Ld 7.

Posted By skkipper on 08/13/2007 4:58 AM
i disagree with using it in combination with obliterators

for the two sorcerers and the 9 oblits thats 1000pts

the 675 for 3 vinicators and 2 sorcerers frees up a lot more points for marines

Comparing a Vindicator to 3 oblits isn't fair, as the Vindie only costs as much as two.

But two plasma cannons are probably still much better than one demolisher cannon.

But it's a close race, so I can see people fielding demolishers just for flavor.

The kinder, gentler Lash of Fzorgle list?

Hey, sometimes people just want to paint tanks.

Don't people always want to paint tanks?

Well, there's your chaos in the new chaos list - see how different you can make your army now? You can choose totally different types of units, tanks (demolishers) or infantry (obliterators)! every list will look different!

Its a very powerful ability attached to a very easilly killed daemon prince or a very slow chaos sorcerer. Outsde of 1k sons heavy lists sporting a sorcerer in every squad it may never see use at all in a game (Dont remember if its possible to do that though since the sorcerer probably already has the mark of tzeentch).

How do you get slow sorceror? He can have a bike or wings... really can't get too much fast than that. It'll see plenty of use. TKson squad sorcerors don't have access to the power.

Posted By Sgt_Scruffy on 08/13/2007 12:24 PM
How do you get slow sorceror? He can have a bike or wings... really can't get too much fast than that. It'll see plenty of use. TKson squad sorcerors don't have access to the power.

True.  The sorcerer would probably have a much better chance of being able to use the lash then a demon prince would.  Thats probably going to be a very high point squad though.

Just so I understand it:

Every other rule GW indicates that you measure the start point to the end point and that equates the distance moved (IE Skimmers and Bikes Turbo Boosting off the top of my head).

Now, there is a new ability and everyone seems to agree that you can move your opponent's models forwards, backwards, then forward again in order to satisfy the moving X", rather than GW just stating, 'roll 2d6 and move the models up to the total rolled'.

If it is a RAW arguement, sure, argue the finer points of english writing. That would be nothing new for 40K.

Will it be actually played that way? I think many folks will be able to some arguements. Personally, I'm going to play it a bit more conservative as I see precedence in previous rules that do not allow you to take advantage of, ahem, creative movement. If I roll 7 inches to move my opponent's models, they will be moved 7 inches total distance. Can I angle them to bunch a few? Most likely.

I concur wholeheartedly that the rules are vague. I suppose, as luck would have it, the folks I play with are mature enough not to dive headlong into the sea of gray areas in 40K. No harm, no foul.

And I'll be the first to say it: I'll ask for judge's ruling at Baltimore if I get someone using creative movements of forward then back, then forward to satisfy the movement distance with this ability. If the judge rules in their favor, so be it. I'll at least be fielding Eldrad.

Sure, but remember, that means you have to move forward far enough that the sorcerer is within 24", and has LoS.
Is the sorcerer alone? If so, then it can be fairly easily targeted.
Is it with a unit? Then it is probably moving at 6" a turn.
Does the unit all have 'wings'? Then it is a pretty expensive unit. Hopefully it is shooty, since if you assault, no more Lash...

This is the kind of stuff I am thinking about. Sure, in theory moving part of a Dev squad is a cool idea, but being able to pull it off may be much easier in theory than reality.

Posted By Sarigar on 08/14/2007 5:47 PM
Just so I understand it:

Every other rule GW indicates that you measure the start point to the end point and that equates the distance moved (IE Skimmers and Bikes Turbo Boosting off the top of my head).

Every other rule? Mind giving us some source references?

There really is NOTHING in the rules that say you must move X inches away from your starting point, with the exception of  Skimmers Moving Fast and Turboboosting. i.e. specific references to specific units/vehicles.

View it as "creative movement" all you want, but it is completly supported by the rules. The only creative movement I see suggested here is telling someone they must move the squad X inches and keep them in formation. I can play TFG kind of RAW as well, but if thats the case, then there is going to be tons of my units fleeting during your shooting phase.

To me, the refusal of acceptance that the enemy units moves by the normal rules sounds alot like someone going through the denial phase of grief. [The Dude] But thats just, like, my opinion, man. [/The Dude]

Posted By Sarigar on 08/14/2007 5:47 PM
Every other rule GW indicates that you measure the start point to the end point and that equates the distance moved (IE Skimmers and Bikes Turbo Boosting off the top of my head).

Not really.  Those examples have specific rules requiring you to measure from start point to end point in order to determine a specific effect.  If you take a tactical marine and move him 6" in a semi-circle around an obstacle how far has he moved?  The distance from start point to end point?  Or the distance along the path he took?

Coredump, many things in this game have ranges shorter than 24", and they seem to do alright.
24" is actually a pretty nice effective range.

Yeah, I realize that part too.
But those are often guns that more than just 1-2 models can have.

I have seen Vindicators do some damage, but almost never against an opposing Dev squad....

And once a sorcerer starts moving forward, it is either getting exposed, or needs a unit of ablative armor. And that starts getting expensive and/or slows down the sorcerer.


So lets ask the question.
If you were playing Chaos, would you use a Sorc of a DP to get the Lash?
What wargear would you give?
If a Sorc, would you put him in a unit?
What unit?

Maybe a unit of generic daemons? Either that or basic marines.
I'd use a sorceror I think.