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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






For Xmas Santa's little helpers brought me a lovely box of Cryx Warmachine models, and so today tortoise and I did battle. Our Warjacks lined up, pretty much walked towards each other and then ended up in a big scrap around the centre, until he gained the upper hand and his Warcaster sneaked through and killed mine.

Neither of us found the experience particularly rewarding, and we can't see the appeal of this as a gaming system. While I quite like the allocation of focus, otherwise the game seems extremely limited, with no real tactical aspect. By 'tactical' I mean elements of the system which encourage you to outmanouvre your opponent and apply force to specific areas, equivalents to 'psychology' or 'drive back' that force your opponent to make unwanted moves, or suppressive aspects of the game that reduce model effectiveness other than destroying it.

So what exactly am I missing? Although we played with only a few 'jacks, I can't see how increasing the number of models would alter the way the system plays out. How is this game tactical?










Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

It's all about the combos. I'll let the more experienced players elaborate.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Sacrifice to the Dark God Tzeentch




Hebron, Kentucky, USA

In many ways Warmachine resembles CCG's, in that the tactics/strategy lies in the combination of spells and abilities. Building these combinations, and using them in the correct sequence depending on the situation is much like building great card combo's and then being able to create new ones and use old ones in creative ways as you play. I think this is what really appeals to a lot of veteran gamers; this combination of tabletop war game and CCG mechanics. But as you pointed out it is not the same sort of strategy as say 40K at all. But in many ways Warmachine is easier to pickup and hit the ground running, I think.
 
JMTC (Just My Two Cents)

"Anything worth doing is worth over doing. Moderation is for monks." R.A. Heinlien.  
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







The careful application of force in warmachine seems to come from avoiding
a well timed feat, planning a well timed feat, and finding ways to get your
warjacks and troops to work in unison with warcaster spells. Instead of a
broad play field, your strategy is the management of focus and unit abilities.
Your units have more options than a normal 40k unit, and so deciding exactly
what to do with them at the right time seems to make all the difference.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I almost put in the above the Warmachine resembled CCG - the Warjacks hardly seemed necessary, you could simply line up the cards and boost them.

Unfortunately, I detest those type of games. Micromanaging focus would be a nice addition to a rules-set, but as the tactical basis for a game it holds no appeal for me.

Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
 
   
Made in us
Mechanithrall




Part of your problem is the fact that you're only playing battle box games. While they can be rewarding in their own right, you need to pick up some infantry models if you're looking for a deeper tactical game.

Psychology only comes into play with living models. Why would a huge hulking warjack run away? The "drive back" comes from the fact that anything that gets charged will be hurting (I've taken down the mighy deathjack with 6 mechanithralls on the charge).

Don't forget that you're only playint approx. 300 points with the battle box. Once you learn how to play, that game would only take about a half hour. It's like playing 500 points of 40k.... with all vehicles... How tactical would that be? Oh wait... 40k isn't tactical in the first place... But I digress.

So, pick up some units, a new warcaster, then play a couple of games. After these, you'll see what makes this game so awesome.

Knight
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







I would say don't pick up the new warcasters yet. Since your games
are only need 1 caster, buying a new one doesn't really add something
to your game unless you know for a fact that you want that caster.I would
fill out troops and mechs more before I got a new caster.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





With 40K, I can see from the rules-set how the game gets better with more units in play. Even more so you can see this with WFB, Warmaster, Epic, FoW, Confrontation. I can't see it with warmachine. How will more units improve the game? How will it play differently? How will the gaming field become more fluid. I can't see from the rules I have how it will.

We have living models - Warcasters. 'Drive Back' does not come from hurting things - its the application of force to make an opponent make an unwanted retreat, without actually causing significant damage. There is, as far as I can see, no point in ever running away, since all it does is give your opponent a free attack.

Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Can you give me a few more details about how your game went, torgoch? What faction did your friend play? How much terrain on the board? What spells did the two of you cast?

I will comment that at the box set level, your tactical options are limited because the battlefield is very small. With so few models on the board, you don't usually run into problems with terrain or unit blocking (i.e. you've got too many of your own models in your way).

Cryx should be the most tactical of the 4 armies. Most of your strategies should revolve around utilizing sacrificial wolf-pack tactics to isolate and eliminate exposed elements of your opponent's army, or to create openings for a caster assassination. Marching straight up the board is usually a bad idea for cryx. Typically you want to spread out a little so that you have more angles of attack with your arc nodes.

In Warmachine, you should never think about running away.  Running away will give a good opponent better board position against you.  You should always be thinking about how to turn the tables on your opponent and go on the offensive.  Naturally, if you get carried away, you'll get your caster killed, but without a good offensive strategy, you'll have a difficult time winning this game.  Now, that's not to say that sacrificing a jack or a few infantry models to reposition is a bad thing!  If you have a strong shooting army or you want to cast a spell at the enemy, you might need to suck up a few free strikes to get those shots off.
   
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Been Around the Block




Well, it certainly is more tactical then 40k.

Not that that is hard at all

With warmachine, ANY list can win against ANY other list. Its not like in 40k where you might as well give up when you see certain armylists.

Its about outmaneuvering, and applying the right force at the right time. Jchen explains it nicely really.

By the way, if you didnt see anyway of reducing a units effectiveness, there really is something wrong. Cryx has an arsenal of spells and stuff that will do that.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




St. Louis, MO.

Can you tell us what faction your opponent played?  I think we can give you a better idea of the tactical possibilities if we know more...

However, some things that come to mind:  WARMACHINE, at the level you're playing is all about trying to eliminate your opponent's caster, while keeping your own alive.  You can, as you said, just march everything forward and have at it, but you can do that in WFB/40K as well, and with probably the same amount of reward...

Cryx especially should be looking for ways to 'fight dirty', and not trying for a stand up fight.  Deneghra, the starter box warcaster, has several spells that can help you out.  Crippling Grasp will drastically reduce the effectiveness of one warjack, by reducing it's stat line, disallowing special attacks, and making it impossible to an opponent to charge or run.

Ghost Walk will allow one of your jacks to move through terrain, which, when combined with the arc node on your bonejacks, will allow you to place a spell exactly where you need to.

Your jacks themselves are fast and hard to hit, and are pretty good at moving around the enemy to strike at the soft warcaster center.

Your opponent should be looking for ways to maximise his strengths, and trying to bring the hurt to you.  I think that you'll find with time, your fights will involve position much more than you might realize (assuming, of course, that you stick with it).

 


Show yourself a brave man, as a Spartiate should; and do you, allies, follow him like men, and remember that zeal, honor, and obedience mark the good soldier.

Thucydides 5.9.9 
   
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Mechanithrall




Huh?  This statement makes no sense...

How can you see, "from the rules set" that more troops make for a better game?  It's obvious that the more troops you have, the more tactical flexibility you'll have.  If you've only got 3-5 models, it'd be impossible for you to be able to have a complex tactical game.  You get enough to play in the boxed sets, but I, personally, only play boxed set games when I'm demoing to new people.  Other than that, I never play less than 500 points.  I prefer 750-100 points, because you have so many more options.  More units make the game better, in my not so humble opinion.

My next question is, why in the hell would you ever want to run away in a real battle.  Retreat isn't a good thing, especially in a small skirmish.  In WARMACHINE, retreating from combat will get you killed.  You know, just like in Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k, and every other wargame I've played...

Knight   

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





This statement makes perfect sense if you read through the WFB rulebook for example. In general its clear from the rules that units will not win games on their own, but from acting in combination with other units to achieve flank or rear charges.

Retreating from combat is a perfectly acceptable tactic that has been used throughout history - the Spartans Brasidas's .sig mentions using the tactic to good effect at Thermopylae. The 'bait and flee' aspect of Warhammer is a good implementation of this tactic, and you can do it 40K too by using small sarificial outrider units.

Tortoise played Mercs. Actually his Warcaster was able to tear one of my smaller 'jacks apart with ease, once i was able to get round his line, so perhaps the soft centre need not applyso much in this case, but i understand the concept.

Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I suggest finding a local Pressganger and get them to Demo a game for you. They know the game inside and out, and can go into the "cool" aspects of the game. When I started into Warmachine I didnt like it or get it at first, but with a third reading of Prime and a few games Im hooked.

YMMV
   
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Infiltrating Moblot







You even beat me last week!

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Made in au
Been Around the Block




Rockhampton, QLD, Australia

Tortoise played Mercs. Actually his Warcaster was able to tear one of my smaller 'jacks apart with ease,


That is because bone jacks are the weakest jacks in the game. You basically use them for their arc nodes so you can pump spells through them and exploit mistakes that your enemies make.

I had a very tactical game with a mate, I was using my Khador battlegroup, and he was using my menoth,. they game swung back and forth, and we were using many tactics to gain the upper hand. In the end we had killed each others jacks off and were left with kreoss and sorcha having a big biff. Fantastic game, and he just scraped through able to beat my def of 20. He was trying to draw my jacks out with his light jacks so he could get a charge off with his crusader and revenger to deal the blow, then I was being super sneaky with my destroyedr shooting jacks nearby kreoss hoping that they would deviate and hit him to soften him up.

As others have said, I think any army list on WM can work, unlike 40k, where list design is key. Also, dont hold back and do things that you wouldnt normally do in 40k or whatever. Play like oyu have a pair.

 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Moblot







Bonejacks are also hella useful for slamming your own troops. Slamming a mcthrall into a Warcaster means you'll be able to rain tasty death onto it him all day long as his defence, etc becomes useless once he's on his back. Even a fog of warred and wind rushed sorcha will get eaten once she's prostrate. Def 11 is a far cry from Def 22....

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Thats right Ach!

Body slammed your 'jack into Feora, then sniped your life away!

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Seattle, WA

Posted By torgoch on 01/02/2006 8:30 AM
This statement makes perfect sense if you read through the WFB rulebook for example. In general its clear from the rules that units will not win games on their own, but from acting in combination with other units to achieve flank or rear charges.


I can see where you'd get that if you're just reading the rules. Where you'll find the army synergy in WARMACHINE is in your unit stats and Warcaster spells. It's one of the big reasons I like WM over 40k... units buff each other and or debuff elements of your opponent's army. It is in no way true that army selection isn't as important in WM as in other games. Building an army that works well together (something that Mercs really can't do well) is very important. At box set level that's really not possible, and you won't see it until you start playing the game at 500+ points.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




"Bait and flee" tends to translate as "bait and pummel" in Warmachine.  Cryx is a good example.  Very often, you'll be able to present your opponent with the choice to charge a bonejack, or let it live and cause him misery on your next turn. 

If you've positioned yourself well, his charge could create holes in his defenses that you'll be able to exploit with other arc nodes and spells. 

Or, the charging warjack/unit has overextended itself and is now separated from the main army.  Slam it, knock it over, put a debuff spell on it, and shoot the snot out of it -- you've traded a cheap 1vp bonejack for a much more valuable unit/warjack! 

In addition, if the bonejack lives, you can have a skarlock cast ghost walk on it, and it can leave combat!

If you specifically miss the mechanic that allows you to move during your opponent's turn when they charge you, perhaps you'd like to play Ashlynn and utilize her "feint" spell to its full potential


As for fighting Magnus, he's got a pretty decent box set.  You'll want to cast crippling grasp on the mangler early on to take it out of the game, and focus on killing the renegade and talon.  Parasite plus a few focus on the bonejacks should make that job much easier.  If magnus plays too aggressively, use your feat, and attack him with the jacks.  If he players further back, use your feat to rob him of focus and tear apart the mangler with the slayer.  Try to make sure you don't lose your jacks to a well timed "hit and run".  And above all, be wary of magnus and that mechanical arm!
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Had my first 500 points game tonight.  I lost, but it was the most fun I've had in a game for ages.  Far better than any of my 40k games.  Maybe because it's all new and exciting and I haven't worked out the optimal units and tactics yet.

My list was Iron Lich Asphyxious (10' tall skull face dude), 7 Bile thralls (shoot their body fluids as acid sprays), 6 Night Wretches (AoE gun bone chickens), 2 pistol wraiths (Shooty, and invulnerable to non-magic until they attack) and 1 bloat thrall (900 lb fatty thrall that shoots 5" pie plates of pus and goo).  Also the ubiquitous skarlock (Super cheap thrall wizard that 99% of Cryx take).

He had Denegra (Your warcaster), Skarlock, Seether (Nastier version of your big jack), 1 fighty Bone chicken (2 in your box I think), Night Wretch, 7 Mecha thralls (Zombies with pneumatic hammer hands), 1 Stalker (Super fast, super delicate assassin jack), Mekanik thrall (Builds bomb thralls from wrecked jacks), 1 pre-made bomb thrall, 1 Bloat Thrall, 1 pistol wraith.

The game was bloody, I didn't use my caster to full effect and I left him dangerously exposed when he killed the Seether in 1 combat round.  His whole army had swarmed forwards and I realised I didn't have enough melee to hold him back.  Asphyxious had to get his spear dirty, and I didn;t use his great movement spell to retreat.  Denny popped her feat and almost all my army got badly debuffed. 

He used Denny to cast further loads of horrible debuffs on my forces, and administered the coup de Grace by knocking Asphyxious down and blasting him with a Venom.  He also had his bloat thrall ready to shoot if required. 

At the end he had Denny, his skarlock and the bloat thrall.  I was left with one pistol wraith, 1 skarlock.  So I did a good fight back.

Too many moves to explain, suffice to say we had to make lots of threat assessments and force moves from opponents. 

I would say that movement is far more important in WM than in 40k.  If you can fire 72", who cares where your hammerhead is?  But when you get units that can move 7" and shoot only 6" (Against an enemy that can charge 9" if you don't kill them) shooting can seem less dominating.  That said, you can walk out of combat (If you don't mind being badly whacked) and shoot the opponent to death.  So a nice balance.  Also, no consolidation, so if you charge a unit with lots of mates nearby, expect to be shot to death or counter charged next turn.

As far as anybody I've spoken to is aware, it's nearly impossible to get first turn casualties if the opponent doesn't make an error in deployment.

It's a 2-3 years rule set and it seems very well balanced.  All of the units for each faction are introduced at the same time in each expansion book, so in theory they're all balanced.  40k lurches from 1 power army to the next (Or underpowers like Deamon Hunters), whereas each of the WM factions is totally filthy, as long as you use them right.  I think of 40k as a leaking bath.  GW hammer patches on and the nails cause further leaks.

Also, within each faction, may of the units are viable.  Maybe a good 80-90% of them.  No krootox style rubbish in WM.  Also, nothing that cannot be killed by a competent opponent - so no Necrons or Monolith equivalents.  Not that balance is perfect.  Almost all Cryx lists have skarlocks and pistol wraiths.  And almost every army has Eiryss the Mage Hunter.  She's a dirty b*tch.

The whole ethos is different.  The game is designed to be balanced, so any army list goes.  40 tournies have comp because GW can't balance their lists, so tourney organisers do it for them.

I can't give a full  ringing endorsement of the system as I've only played 2 games, but I've been applying my analytical skills to the lists and checking forums and I'm impressed by what I've seen so far.

GW have some serious competition, which can only be a good thing.

 

Gazzor

 

 

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block






Torgosh:

As you can see, you have posted a lively topic.  As way of my response to your basic question, of basically, "I dont get it", let me respond with my two cents.  First of all I love 40K and WFB.  Those games are great.  I love Warmachine too.  As it is stated herein, the two games are different.  If you do not like the idea of killer combos or CCG game style of play of building decks and trying out combos on your opponents, then I think you will not enjoy Warmachine.  To me, WM is like Magic with Minatures which personally I love.  So, if you are looking for the type of game where all your units combined with your leaders and vehicles creates a grand battle then you will like 40K, WFB or even Flames of War.  If you like one to one combat, being able to suddenly change the battle with the stroke of one feat or spell.  To sit at home and think of neat combos with your warcaster and your jack choices and then try them out, then warmachine is for you.  Here is why I like the game and may help you.

1.  The world is very rich and full like in GW.  The Iron Kindgoms offers a lot of fluff and story lines.

2.  The minatures take a while to get used to for somepeople, but they grow on you.  I liked them right away.

3.  The rules set is very intuitive to learn.  And there are a lot of combos, remember its not just wacking someone with your jacks axe, there are slam attacks, grapples, throws, spells, feats, warcasters and troops.  That's a lot of combos even with a box set.

4.  There is something to be said for playing "like you gotta pair" rather than defefnsively.  Page 5. stuff in the Warmachine Rule Book.

5.  Its a different game altogether, but with a lot of options.  Different options in how to build lists, different field playing options, different battle options, different plans almost always changing once in play.

In sum:  some of my 40k friends won't touch the game with a ten foot pole for all the reasons you specify.  Some, like me, love it.  I think all the posts herein are right on point, but in the end it boils down to you, and what you like as a player.  I hope this offers a different insight.

 

   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Gazzor:
It's entirely possible to get first turn casualties.  It's just ill advised.  Widowmakers at full advance deploy can move and fire 4" deep into the enemy front deploy line -- but they'll probably get waxed on your opponent's first turn. 

For the Iron Lich, I prefer to use his bonejacks as mini-cruise missiles.  They run up 14" and he arcs 2 BoC at soft targets -- don't worry too much about hitting, if you get within 4" of a juicy target (especially a warcaster), you can't miss.  Also, against infantry squads, a deviation can mean a few models will get hit.  With a constant pow 12 for all in the AoE, it's too good of a spell to pass up!  Iron blight and parasite/hellfire are good for taking out hard targets. 
   
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Been Around the Block




Ah well, I did say nearly impossible.  And there's nothing that says you have to deploy as far forward as you can.

Suffice to say I don't see Warmachine as being down to determining the winner by who gets the highest on the dice roll to go first.

This seems to happen a lot in 40k, even at GT games between good players...

Gazzor

   
Made in ca
Strider






It easy to turn Warmachine into a straight-up fight, and from there it's not quite fun. You've got a Cryx box, but you lined up your models toe-to-toe with another box's force? I mean, your heavy jack has about as many damage boxes and similar stats to a light 'jack from any other army. Your bonejacks are the fastest warjacks in the game, especially when running, so why get them locked into combat in the first place? What were you trying to accomplish?

You know Scourge knocks down any model it hits, or that slams knock models down. You know knocked down models are hit automatically in combat, and have their defense considerably lowered against magic attacks. If you've read the back of Prime, you also know that Cryx thrives on it's spells and it's arc nodes getting it's spells into place.

As for adding more models, many spells and feats and abilities are only really useful when troops are around, and all of a sudden focus management gets more important. Also, they add a little bit more dynamic between themselves, warcasters, and warjacks. My advice would be to check on PP's tactics forums, or find some people to watch and show you the basics.
   
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Dakka Veteran




I don't know. It seems to me like it has similar styles of tactics as 40K. Actually a bit like a combination of 40K and Fantasy, as flank attacks and rear charges and combined attacks are all features, as opposed to 40K where they don't really matter at all except for vehicles.

You have to carefully deploy, plan your moves and if you are shooty you have to focus fire and choose your targets effectively, and if you are choppy you have to plan your charges carefully so that you are not flanked.

Really, I can see you not thinking it is as tactic and strategy heavy as fantasy, but 40K? Don't see it.

Maybe it's the size you have a problem with? No units of infantry to hold a line?
As you add more units you get more bait, more complicated movement, more dangerous ploys and more vulnerabilities as well.

I don't see how you would fail to see it if you saw it in 40K or fantasy.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Hmmm it sounds to me that you just used the quick start rules, which I have heard are really bad when playing Cryx. My first game of warmachine me and my opponent didn't have much time and it was informal so we just gamed and didn't know the rules worth jack, that was really fun, especially when neither of us realized you had to roll for spell effects, so I had denny knocking down jacks every turn, and of course in return sorscha was freezing my helljack every turn, was great fun with the super power magic, but really knowing the rules adds a lot to the game.

So basically, get the full rulebook, learn the real rules and try it again, works a heck of a lot better than the quick start crap.


 
   
 
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