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I am sure this topic has been highly debated but I would like to get the most recent school of thought.

When a librarian uses the FOTA's psychic power, it is my understanding that the command squad or squad he is attached to must also then target a unit through which the psychic power passes through. Also, range and target priority tests will need to be taken as normal. Squads not touched by the FOTA's power can not be targeted.

Is the above an accurate assessment? The sticking point obviously is whether or not the attached squad can freely shoot at a separate unit. A unit where the Librarian's psychic power did not pass through. After speaking with GW, there stance is that the squad must target a unit through which the FOTA's power passed through. They also said to expect this stance at GT's & GD's.

Currently, which way are players sided towards?

Thx

Because the power does not follow the normal rules for shooting you dont have to shoot the squad at the same target.

Or you could follow the logic that since the power is aimed at a point the squad would never get to shoot in the shooting phase which makes no sence.

This is all do to the fact that FOTA doesnt target any enemy squad (powers such as mind war do though and their squad must shoot the same place).

actualy i don't remember it being debated at all.

the rules are pretty clear. FOA does not target a squad or unit  so the squad the libby is attached to is not restricted in it's target selection.

Posted By NotThisTime on 09/14/2007 12:33 PM

I am sure this topic has been highly debated but I would like to get the most recent school of thought.

Those aspects of the rules have never been debated because they're crystal clear.  Besides, if you tried operating under those assertions, what would happen if you hit 3 separate units?

Posted By Bookwrack on 09/15/2007 3:19 AM

Posted By NotThisTime on 09/14/2007 12:33 PM

I am sure this topic has been highly debated but I would like to get the most recent school of thought.

Those aspects of the rules have never been debated because they're crystal clear.  Besides, if you tried operating under those assertions, what would happen if you hit 3 separate units?

You would have your choice as to which unit to shoot at given you have the range. Target priority check would be taken as normal.

Posted By cypher on 09/14/2007 12:47 PM
Because the power does not follow the normal rules for shooting you dont have to shoot the squad at the same target.

Or you could follow the logic that since the power is aimed at a point the squad would never get to shoot in the shooting phase which makes no sence.

This is all do to the fact that FOTA doesnt target any enemy squad (powers such as mind war do though and their squad must shoot the same place).

Cypher, correct me if I am wrong, but according to the rules for psychic powers, it clearly states that "Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules" (Page #52). Now just because the power does not require LOS doesn't mean it should not follow the rules for targeting.

Please indicate where it states that FOTA does not follow the normal rules for shooting as you suggest.

The description of how the power operates doesn't resemble the normal rules for shooting in any way.

unless specified otherwise doesn't they have to tell you when the rules don't apply, just that they have to tell you another way for them work,which it has been specified as working another way(i.e. target a point on the board and draw a line) and so the normal shooting rules don't apply.

Posted By Imriel on 09/15/2007 1:40 PM
unless specified otherwise doesn't they have to tell you when the rules don't apply, just that they have to tell you another way for them work,which it has been specified as working another way(i.e. target a point on the board and draw a line) and so the normal shooting rules don't apply.

the rules for shooting deal with selecting target  units,  as fury does't select an enemy unit the normal shooting rules do not apply.

you cannot be locked onto the same unit as a libby using fury because he does not select a unit as is normally done with psyker powers and the basic shooting rules.

 

sorry a typo I made seems to have changed what I meant to say there should be a mean between the doesn't and they, I left the typo there when I first noticed it cause I seem to never be able to edit my posts, and I didn't want to double post for it, and I thought the rest of the post got across the idea that I thought it didn't follow normal shooting rules.

I thought your post was clear enough, and correct.

I thought so to but Mughi3 seems to be trying to refute me by agreeing with me or something.

i was just clarifying the actual shooting rule in question and why it doesn't apply to fury

I have to agree with "mughi3"

The rules for FOTA does specify that you nominate a point on the table to use the FOTA power therefore you don't need to pick a specific model, I do however agree that it hasn't specified that normal shooting rules don't apply but I think it may be a moot point. Otherwise whats the point of saying you nominate a point on the table! and then use normal shooting rules.

Cheers

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 09/18/2007 4:21 AM
I have to agree with "mughi3"

The rules for FOTA does specify that you nominate a point on the table to use the FOTA power therefore you don't need to pick a specific model, I do however agree that it hasn't specified that normal shooting rules don't apply but I think it may be a moot point. Otherwise whats the point of saying you nominate a point on the table! and then use normal shooting rules.

Cheers

Hellsguardian316:

Since FOTA doesn't specify that normal shooting rules do not apply, then why should we think otherwise? And why do you see it as a moot point? Just because the power doesn't require LOS and picks a table edge and all along that line are hit doesn't mean the entire squad is exempt or shouldn't have to adhere to the rest of the rules for shooting.

GW has sided that the squad is limited shooting wise to only those units that are touched by the power. Range & target priority also come into account.

Grazie

 

So tell me, what does FotA target?

I agree with the others that say that the normal Shooting rules do not apply.  Once the rules state that you target a point, it makes the remainder of the Shooting rules moot. 

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 09/18/2007 8:51 AM
So tell me, what does FotA target?

The answer to your question is in my previous post.

And I say again, please prove to me where it specifically mentions that just because the power targets a board edge and not an individual unit, that the unit does not have to adhere to the rest of the rules for shooting.

FOTA's allows the Librarian and his unit to circumvent some of the rules for shooting, not all. His squad is not somehow magically bequeathed the ability to freely target a separate unit. And since you suggest otherwise, please indicate where so. Is there some faq out there that I am not aware of? And if you reference your previous question again, you have only proved that you can not provide adequate support to your claim.

Grazie.

So are you telling me the squad needs to shoot at the table edge that FotA is targetting? BGB pg. 51, "Characters must still fire at the same target as the unit they are with." If the squad shoots at a unit, then the Libby must too, and he then cannot use FotA as it cannot be targetted at a unit. Being affected by FotA is not the same as being targetted by it.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 09/18/2007 12:12 PM
So are you telling me the squad needs to shoot at the table edge that FotA is targetting? BGB pg. 51, "Characters must still fire at the same target as the unit they are with." If the squad shoots at a unit, then the Libby must too, and he then cannot use FotA as it cannot be targetted at a unit. Being affected by FotA is not the same as being targetted by it.

Point well taken. It also would have helped had I seen Yakface's faq on this.

Grazie

There seem to be two schools of thought on the poor wording for psychic powers following shooting rules unless otherwise noted.

1. If ANY portion of the psychic powers rules contradicts ANY portion of the shooting rules then the power does NOT follow the shooting rules at all.
2. Normal shooting rules are applied to all psychic powers except for the portions that directly contradict each other.

So an example of how the two would resolve Fury would be:

Player 1: Since the power obviously ignores normal targeting rules for shooting all bets are off. The power can be used independant of the units firing, and it will ignore all other aspects of the shooting rules as its effects are resolved.
Player 2: The power obviously ignores normal targetting rules for shooting a weapon, but it doesn't say anything about ignoring the rules for units splitiing their fire between targets. Since a unit cannot target a board edge they will not be able to fire during the phase. Furthermore, the power itself can cause hits on all units the line crosses but since it doesn't mention anything about casualty removal we revert to the normal rules meaning casualties must still be taken from within range(N/A) and LOS.

To me, option 1 seems to be the easiest and most sensible way to play. This brings up another problem though: consistency. If we say that spychic powers that defy any shooting rules defy all shooting rules than we must also submit that that works for ALL psychic powers, not just marine psychic powers. For example: if a power stated the psyker may target any model within 18" it means ANY model. Being an independant character out of LOS will not save a model from this power if it is within 18".