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Are psychic powers that are used instead of shooting - but are not actually shooting powers - counted for the purposes of being able to charge certain things?

 

Meaning can I lash one unit and charge another?

 

-Spellbound

If it says it counts as a weapon (ie Doombolt, Bolt of Change) then you must follow the shooting rules; if it doesnt, follow the rule description. In the case of Lash; then yes you may lash one unit and charge another

What? How did you get that? It targets a unit. You can only charge the unit you lash.

Just because something targets a unit (or replaces shooting, as per the OP's question) doesn't mean it is subject to the rule that if you shoot a unit you may only assault that unit. Lash is not a shooting attack, thus one is not bound to assault only the unit that was lashed.

Okay, so let me see if I get this right. If I try shooting my melta at a tank that is just outside of 12" preventing me from SHOOTING it, I can then charge another unit?

Uhhh okay.

Posted By Neophryte on 09/25/2007 11:00 AM
Okay, so let me see if I get this right. If I try shooting my melta at a tank that is just outside of 12" preventing me from SHOOTING it, I can then charge another unit?

Uhhh okay.

Thats not what Swize1 said. Reread his post one more time.

Targeting is not shooting. Lash is not shooting. Therefore lash something assault something else.

I'm pretty sure Lash is a shooting attack. "unless specifed otherwise, psyhic ablities are subject tot he usal shooting rules"

Lash doesn't say otherwise and follows the wording for the other current chaos psychic powers that are much more like shooting attacks.

The power targets a unit. This is very different from "Shoot something then assault something else" restriction seen below.



From the psychic powers section:


I see nothing there that says psychic powers are shooting, just subject to the shooting rules (seeing the target, all shooting attacks directed at the same unit, etc, just like the psychic description says).

Posted By Hellfury on 09/25/2007 11:16 AM

Posted By Neophryte on 09/25/2007 11:00 AM
Okay, so let me see if I get this right. If I try shooting my melta at a tank that is just outside of 12" preventing me from SHOOTING it, I can then charge another unit?

Uhhh okay.

Thats not what Swize1 said. Reread his post one more time.

Targeting is not shooting. Lash is not shooting. Therefore lash something assault something else.

No I understand that.  You are not allowed to shoot at something out of range.  Therefore, I targetted the unit that was out of range but was unable to shoot.  Therefore I can charge a different unit by this logic.

Also, I cannot tell which side of the argument you are supporting with all of those screenshots.  It looks to me like it makes if clear that lash follows the rules for shooting.

Posted By Hellfury on 09/25/2007 11:54 AM

I see nothing there that says psychic powers are shooting, just subject to the shooting rules (seeing the target, all shooting attacks directed at the same unit, etc, just like the psychic description says).

And the rule of how you can only charge the same unit you shot at.

LASH MY NULL ROD BEEOTCHIES!!!



- G

Posted By davidson on 09/25/2007 12:38 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 09/25/2007 11:54 AM

I see nothing there that says psychic powers are shooting, just subject to the shooting rules (seeing the target, all shooting attacks directed at the same unit, etc, just like the psychic description says).

And the rule of how you can only charge the same unit you shot at.

Just because something happens in the shooting phase, doesnt make it shooting.

Its a psychic power, not shooting.

Posted By Hellfury on 09/25/2007 1:29 PM
Just because something happens in the shooting phase, doesnt make it shooting.

Its a psychic power, not shooting.

It is not shooting, but follows every single rule of shooting unless it says otherwise.

If I bolt of change one target, can I charge another? No.

The same thing goes for lash as they work exactly the same.

#1. ?Psychic abilities are subject to the usual shooting rules.?

#2. ?A unit that fired in the Shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at.?


I am not good at rules, but it seems like you have to charge what you target with the lash.

You 'pick' a unit; you dont 'target' as you do with shooting

besides; bolt of change says it 'counts as a weapon' the lash doesnt

so... following this arguement... how do manage fury of the ancients... you're not targeting a unit but a board edge... so can your librarian charge any unit (not afected by fury) afer casting this power?

Um, yes.

Posted By Aeon on 09/26/2007 2:23 AM
besides; bolt of change says it 'counts as a weapon' the lash doesnt

Bolt of change says it counts as a weapon with the following profile... The point of the sentence is not to declare BoC counts as a weapon but that it has the given weapon profile.   It also states first that, "[BoC] may be used in the model's shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."  (Emphasis mine). 

Lash also begins "may use [Lash] in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon."  (Emphasis mine). 

The specific use of the word "another" leads me be to believe that the powers are counted as ranged weapons, and as such are subject to shooting rules such as only charging units the model has shot at.  If it were simply an alternative to firing a ranged weapon I believe it would read that the power would be used instead of shooting, omitting the term "another", like Fury of the Ancients.

My $.02

It would seem a strong case is building for lash something; obligated to charge only it, if however a strict interpretation of psychic powers is used, (can only charge a target of a psychic power if used) explain to me how Eldar psychers ever charge?

Say a farseer guides a unit, well, he targeted them right, counts as shooting per the strict interpretation, (had to see them and be in range) and therefore can't charge any enemies at all because he target friendly models....  Right?  This would also apply to all psychic powers, so inquistors that target themselves have fired and cant charge, and librarians too, and warlocks can never charge because their power always targets the unit they are with.... See where this goes? 

FoTA referenced previously really drives the right answer home.

It has to declare the psychic power as a gun.  I say Lash anything in LOS and charge anywhere you want. Psychic powers are not standard and probably need individual consideration as the rules aren't as airtight as we'd like.

Apples and oranges - those eldar abilities aren't used in the shooting phase.

Yes, but it does say, "unless specified otherwise they are subject to the normal shooting rules".  So phase doesn't matter does it (it was just specified otherwise)? It's still subject to the other shooting rules, unless they are specified somehow right... ? (like shooting into and out of assault).

This issue has come up before, in another context, can a locked psycher cast a psychic power?  No because they follow the shooting rules (unless specified otherwise) and you can't shoot when locked in assault. 

This makes some powers really hard to use, and is why farseers are largely worthless.  By RAW you can't fortune a locked unit or doom an enemy locked unit, or fortune yourself when you are locked.   You can't shoot into assault either so technically locked models are not valid targets for 3rd party psychic powers at all and a whole host of other messy questions...

By association this would also mean that an enemy unit couldnt be extrictaed from an assault by the lash (because its locked and not a valid target).  But wouldn't that be crazy? Lash them out, just move them out of 1 inch, then charge again and get a slew of free attacks...

Posted By Augustus on 09/26/2007 11:09 AM
By association this would also mean that an enemy unit couldnt be extrictaed from an assault by the lash (because its locked and not a valid target).  But wouldn't that be crazy? Lash them out, just move them out of 1 inch, then charge again and get a slew of free attacks...

No, an enemy unit in hand to hand cannot be the target of lash because lash does not say it can be used on a target that is in hand to hand combat like say nurgle's or or gift of chaos.

Yes.... I agree. ? That's what I posted.

Posted By Aeon on 09/26/2007 2:22 AM
You 'pick' a unit; you dont 'target' as you do with shooting

besides; bolt of change says it 'counts as a weapon' the lash doesnt

Uhh yea you do. If you fire a las cannon at terminators you don't say I pick that one with the power fist, you target the whole unit.


All psychic powers follow the shooting rules unless the power says they doesn't.


Some Eldar powers like fortune are used at the start of the eldar player turn, not during the shooting phase. So they can fortune a friendly unit and charge an enemy unit because
it says it can be cast on an Eldar unit and because it did not target an enemey unit in the shooting phase it can charge a new target.

The shooting and charging targets rule is only covered by things that fired in the shooting phase, not at the start of the player's turn.

And since Lash is a psychic power, and used in the shooting phase, and lash does not say otherwise, it must follow all the other normal shooting rules. If it lashes a target, it can only charge that target.

Seeing those two pdf pictures side by side makes it clear to me that the lash is an attack used in place of shooting and will impose the same restrictions.  It seems obvious to me you can only assault what you lash.  Thanks guys!

-Spellbound

davidson- The shooting and charging targets rule is only covered by things that fired in the shooting phase, not at the start of the player's turn.

That makes sense, but you made it up, where does it say that? Remember:

All psychic powers follow the shooting rules unless the power says they doesn't.

Posted By Augustus on 09/26/2007 12:42 PM

davidson- The shooting and charging targets rule is only covered by things that fired in the shooting phase, not at the start of the player's turn.

That makes sense, but you made it up, where does it say that? Remember:

All psychic powers follow the shooting rules unless the power says they doesn't.

Page 36, "a unit that fired in the shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at" I would put that under the shooting rules that phsyic powers have to follow.

So all the psychic powers that happen outside the shooting phase have cart blanche to not affect a charging target?  Essentially they aren't shooting. I was originally thinking of an excerpt from the psychic rules, but I see how that phrase from the shooting rules applies.

Yea, looks like you have it right! I'm convinced.  Thanks for the reference.

OT: I suppose if a prince has to charge the lash target that opens up an interesting situation if it is out of range, you have to give up your assault if you lash something you cant charge afterward... it makes them much more direct, it would be much more useful if you could lash anyone in 24 and charge the closest unit still.  This will provide a sort of defence against the monsters. Hmmm...