Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fire Warriors are often accused of being ... if they are considered to be underperforming maybe they can be said to be overcosted.

w/ Storm Troopers at 9 points each, it would go like this

9 points -- Storm Trooper:  24" Rapid Fire S3 AP5, WS3, BS4, S 3, T3, I3, 4+, ld 8
10 points -- Fire Warrior:  30" Rapid Fire S5 AP5, WS2, BS3, S3, T3, I2, 4+, ld7 (vet gives +1)
11 points -- Sister of Battle:  24" Rapid Fire S4 AP5, WS3, BS4, S3, T3, I3, 3+, ld8 (vet gives +1)
15 points -- Chaos Marine:  24" Rapid Fire S4 AP5, WS4, BS4, S4, T4, I4, 3+, ld9 (vet gives +1) (also armed w/ BP+CCW)

The Chaos Marine at 15 points is a sort of high end comparison we can use.

The Tau's weak weapon skill hurts them against Space Marine HQ, which is a liability, so we can't completely ignore it.

Their iniative hurts them against I3 troops, we can't completely ignore it either.

Without the 30" range, a BS4 Bolter is the same as a BS3 Pulse Rifle, vehicles and high toughness aside.  We can say that the advantage of the high strength weapon is what they get, while the humans get marginally more useful close combat ability.  So:

9 points -- Storm Trooper 24" S3 Rapid Fire, S3, T3, 4+, ld8
10 points -- Fire Warrior 30" Rapid Fire S3, T3, 3+, ld7 (vet gives +1)
11 points -- Sister of Battle 24" Rapid Fire S3, T3, 3+, ld8 (vet gives +1)

If we just gave Fire Warriors ld8 for free it would be:

9 points -- Storm Trooper 24" S3 Rapid Fire, 4+
10 points -- Fire Warrior 30" Rapid Fire, 4+
11 points -- Sister of Battle 24" Rapid Fire, 3+

So the Fire Warriors get an extra 6" of shooting, which is a good extra turn of firing w/ one more dead space marine.  Meanwhile the Sisters are more survivable by 16% against small arms and 66% vs AP4.  If you call it 20% more survivable it saves two points off of the 11 points, while the extra 6" is worth a good point for the Fire Warriors.

So maybe all Fire Warriors need is a free Shas'ui in every squad, which gives 6 man squads a real break and frees up wargear options anyway, bonding knives if nothing else.  I don't how this would effect Pathfinders, since we're re-writing rules we can just make them 13 points w/ a mandatory Shas'ui included.  It's still a slight points break over the current cost and helps with those leadership priority tests.

And Storm Troopers are still crap .  Maybe while we're at it we can give them a free vet along with the reduced points cost, but no increase in their leadership.  I'm not trying to hijack the other thread.

Stormtroopers are 10 points, chaos space marines are 14

your comparison is also really illogical. you're comparing the units out of context - they occupy different slots on the FOC and they have different units in their respective books to assist them. markerlights and the extra 6'' range alone make firewarriors the best of all those units

Stormtroopers are generally thought to be overpriced compared to Sisters of Battle, so I counted them as 9. CSM are now 15 points.

It's true that they have different units to assist them, but all three, or even all four including the CSM are not elite units, they are basic line infantry. Many Tau players will tell you that their mech and Crises suits are their "real" army and their Fire Warriors play a less significant role.

The extra 6" range is their advantage, yes, but it's only an extra turn of firing and the game is fought mostly < 24". It also doesn't help any if a squad is in a Devilfish.

It's true that Fire Warrior teams can take 3x Markerlights: for an additional _80_ points, or 70 w/ a free Shas'ui. That's an entirely different functionality that doubles their points cost. They don't even have to fire at the same target, unlike the heavy and special weapons of other races.

Everything should make sense right up until 30" range vs 3+ save. Sisters are different in that their 3+ lets them play a role as a rock hard center of the army -- which is why I'm trying to say that an appropriate order of usefulness is Storm Trooper -> Fire Warrior -> Sister of Battle. Assuming that appropriate points costs are 9, 10 and 11 for each respectively when they are all ld8. Leadership of 8 is substantially better than Leadership 7 for both reasons why Fire Warriors need it the most: priority checks and after taking casualties from shooting and pinning, especially when they have a -1 modifier.

While a decent comparison, it is completely out of context. Give the Tau army some pathfinders and everything changes. People often compare unit for unit between armies which makes little sense. People often complain that the Tau infantry don't recieve any heavy weapons, and are therefore vastly inferior to any other line trooper. This is a silly. The Tau army is filled to the gills (devilfish anyone? eh? eh? yeah, I admit, it was pretty bad) with heavy weapons. Every suit is a heavy infantry destroying machine and between rail heads, suicide fusion suits, pirahnah and broadsides, tanks don't stand a bloody chance against Tau. The armies my Tau have the most trouble against are hordes. They just don't have the boots on the ground of the number of shots to hurt them. The firewarriors solve both of these problems brilliantly and I'd rather have a BS3 firewarrior for 10 points and a Str 5 gun than a sister anyday. Pathfinders get our fire warriors their good BS when they need it.

Pathfinders get our fire warriors their good BS when they need it.

I was going to argue against this, saying that as far as points costs are concerned Pathfinders don't count because they can be used (from a points basis) to improve any unit in the army, but that's not what you're saying.  You're saying that every battle you will have a hammer you have to deal with, and Pathfinders will always be used against it.  And sometimes Fire Warriors are the right tool for the job.

You make me want to play Tau .  Pity that's why my brother plays 40k at all, he's a mecha guy.

So what do you say to Tau players that find those same Fire Warriors ineffective vs assaulting MEQ?  They need to use Devilfish w/ drones, kroot, ethereals, suicide squads etc more effectively?

It vastly depends on the type of assault mech. If the assault army is using transports, it's your lucky day. Broadsides and Rail heads deal with land raiders handily and suits can mop up the rhinos/razors with ease. Then, the entire assault army is on the ground and easily destroyed with fish of fury tactics. This means get your fishies in a line, so that the vulnerable fire warriors behind them can't be charged. Then, rapid fire to your hearts content. You will take somewhat heavy casualties if the MEQ army is kitted out with bolters, and your path finders will have already been used to ensure transport death. At this point, you have 2 options. Option 1, hang back and wait until you can bring suits and rail heads to bear on the exposed meq's and then bring your fire warriors in for a shooting gallery. This is not always viable however. Often, the MEQ player will have assault marines or other fast moving units on you already and you need to start killing things NOW. This is where option 2 comes in. Use your fire warriors to take out anything that is an immediate threat to critical heavy units while keeping them behind as much terain, and out of LOS, as possible. For the most part, Tau have little trouble neutering transports in turn 1 and 2 as long as they aren't eldar transports.

However, this is not the only type of assaulty meq army these days. Our second common assault army is BT or a vanilla list that looks like BT with a large horde of 3+ saves moving at your lines for most of the game. This is by far the easiest list to deal with. Use all heavy weapons to destroy fast elements as soon as they present themselves. Then, play points denial. Hang around your side until the army starts to get close, then zip over to the other table edge and hang around, throwing 30" death at the enemy. This is a pretty easy list to deal with.

Finally, we have the dreaded drop pod assault army. This army is much less about assault, and much more about rapid fire. This rapid fire will absolutely destroy you. If you know you are playing a rapid fire army, you have more time to set up the playing field. The strategy I have used to great effect is hiding in a corner. Pick a corner will little to no terrain. Plop your rail heads in the back, surrounded by a ring of fire warriors, surounded by a ring of devilfish. This will ensure that nothing can get TOO close to you, and, should the scatter dice gods favor you, you won't have much to worry about on turn 2. If you can get first turn, use the landing gears on those devil fish on turn 2, before any of his pods get a chance to deepstrike. This will create a large wall of tanks to block LOS. Then, once the pods start to land, make the fish hover again and destroy the vulnerable targets. Dice really determine this game, and it can turn against you, but the LOS blocking wall keeps as many of your units safe for as long as possible.

fire warriors should have bs4 actually the whole tau army shoudl have bs4!, minus the lame aliens.. for a shooting army they sure do suck at it! for any army that cant play a basic list and win a take and hold literally no chance, unless you play kroot of vespids is silly. and before any one says that IG only have bs 3 and can work... but it works cause you around 70 guardmen running around....

having played tau for a long time and wanting to play tau ( not aliens ) i had never became so irratated with an army, not cause its all about then win, but because of the lack of fun the way the army is .........

but crisis suits and broadsides due rule! and the 4+ on the firewarrior is pretty good too

 

Actually I think the only change need is in the gun. Istead of a rapid fire 30" make it an Assualt 2, or even an assault 1 and 30". That in itself lets you get the range bonus and still run around the board getting more mobility. Exactly what Tau Fire Casts Doctrine likes.

What they should do is make change the rapid fire range from 12" to half the distance of the gun, this would allow footslooging FW to really mave & shoot.

I my exerience, the bane of the footslogging Tau are drop pods & jump packs.

My Pathfinders don't last past turn 1.

Another good thing maybe to give them free markerlights or an inreased rifle range of 36", that would give us a shot right of the get go in most 6 x 4 tables since it is usually only 24" inbetween. That would make the tau true long range mechanics. Though this would probably over power the gun seeing as it would be a weak rail rifle.

@Ratbarf

the 36" range wouldn't really help them vs jump pack MEQ or deep striking MEQ

@droidman

but the 15" thing would. It would help them against Hordes too, for that matter. It would really give them some nice punch. An extra 3" adds a layer of tactical complexity to the game, just like varying movement rates would. And the Tau are supposed to be tactical, right?

The other thing I was thinking when the assault 1 was mentioned was give it an 18" Assault 1 Carbine firing mode, maybe even twin-linked. Or maybe say the entire squad gets rifles but half the squad gets Carbines as well, this replacing the "choose to take carbines" rule.

Are FWs really that bad? It's a little unfair to compare with SoBs, since SoBs are, IMO, intentionally undercosted, an undercosting they earn by their lack of a good transport option as well as any real way of hurting their enemies from afar.

One thing that would be interesting for Tau, I think, would be a (perhaps universal across Tau units) Ld bonus that applies only to target priority checks. I don't see Tau as being particularly able to hold their ground if assaulted or under hevay fire, but I imagine their fire control should be top notch. Perhaps something like this would be a better fix than a free Shas'ui (which seems like quite a contrived balance mechanic--where else are free sarge upgrades used as a points break?).

TC: They tried to to this by giving you access to the Command and Control node, only problem is that the range is really short and it uses up a valuable hard point on a command suit.

The real problem with FW is that you need to mass their firepower to kill marines but you're limited by terrain. Any FW unit not in cover will get annihiliated in short order by the ungodly amount of AP4 shooting (ie assault cannons) that marines have access to. Putting to many FW together in the same cover has the unfortunate effect of attracting the attention of your opponents assault units that will wipe them out in short order.

Unless of course you take 72 and stick them in a corner. Give two or three units devilfishes and use them to grab objectives late game.