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In the new Chaos 40K codex, Fabius Bile can augment  "Chaos Space Marines" for 3pts per model in the squad (I might have the points wrong. My codex isn't here at work with me. Please, don't  "ding" me on that one).

There is something in the codex that leads me to ask this question.

Please, keep in mind that this is strictly hypothetical, as I interpret it in the strictest fashion... only CSM squads by Unit name.

That being said...

 

if you look in the first half of the book, each unit type has its' own heading. Obliterators are under the "Obliterator" heading, Possessed are under the "Possessed" heading, Thousand Sons are under the "Thousand Sons" heading, etc.

When you get to the heading for "Chaos Space Marines," however, there are FOUR untis listed in that heading. There are Bikers, Chosen, Havocs and CSM.

There are 2 sides of the story here.

(1) CSM are CSM, Bikers are bikers, etc., and the do not overlap. Go by the unit name.

As stated, that is what I follow.

 

I'd like to explore option (2) to see what others think.

What is a CSM? It's a basic CSM.

What is a Biker? It's a CSM on a bike.

What's a CSM Chosen? It's a CSM with a Ld10 & better weapon options.

What's a Havoc? It's a CSM squad with more Hvy Wpn choices.

 

Now, some people would point to the simple fact that the other 3 units get specialized equipment or have better options, so should be eliminated. I say that's fine.

Then why do raptors have their own HEADING?

What are Raptors? They're CSM with Jump Packs. Like bikers, they're CSM with a special mode of transport.

What gave them the option to have their own heading when Bikers didn't? Couldn't they have just been stuck under the Chaos Space Marine heading? I'd think Chosen should have their own heading over Raptors. They're more different than any of the others (including Raptors), due to their "special" nature.

Also note that the "Chaos Space Marine" heading does NOT differentiate by unit type, either. Troops, Elitels, Fast Attk & hvy are ALL represented.

 

Again, I reiterate, I choose option (1), above.

 

Option (2), however, does make sense. I mean, look at bikers. they kinda blow in the new Chaos. they aren't HORRIBLE... but they certainly PALE compared to old bikers. Allowing them to be altered by Fabius makes them a little more viable unit.

Chosen? Well, they're Chosen! They're SUPPOSED to be *special.* Why not make them more *special* with a strength bump?

Havocs? Why on earth you WOULD do this is beyond me. I mean, their weapons aren't living weapons like Nids, so they don't need it (if you're charging with your Havocs, either you're doing it wrong, or something went HORRIBLY wrong)... but they're just basic CSM's (for stats), so why NOT let them be altered.

 

I'd like to see REASONABLE points of view as to why this should or SHOULD NOT be allowed.

The only one I'll be bored with is if you point out "Unit name" vs "Heading." I'm aware of that.

 

I'd like, even more, to see someone "argue" BOTH sides effectively.

 

Thanks for looking!

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

 

As per Codex:

Chosen are ELITES.
CSM, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Beserkers, and Thousand Sons are TROOPS.
CSM Bikers and Raptors are FAST ATTACK
Havocs and Obliterators are HEAVY SUPPORT

Raptors may have received their own "heading" simply because there was more "fluffy" information the authors wanted to share than would fit on the page.

And what, exactly is the point you are trying to make?  That Fabius can augment any or all of the above?  The RAW states "any number of Chaos Space Marine squads.....".  Personally, I would only use it on plain vanilla CSM squads, but if you want to risk having a 75 point Obliterater face the "berserker rage" option, or the "created a monster" option which kills one member of the squad each turn, then by all means, go right ahead.  Especially since most of the troop types you mentioned are fearless already (Khorne, Noise, Plague, Thousand Sons, Obliteraters) it doesn't seem very wise.

Under the Chaos Space Marines discription they have Havocs, Chosen, and Bikers. I would assume that these, as well as reg CSM were the only units able to be affected by Fabious Bile. Though, one could reasonable stretch the rules to includeraptors, plague marines, noise marines, berzerkers, thousand sons and possessed saying that they were all once CSMs. Though fluff wise I figure these units would be out becaus ethey belong to seperate cults and the cults would probably believe that they had created the perfect warrior already and not be down with having a wimp like Bile tinker with their bodies. But really, as far as I am concerned rules wise you ar emor ethan welcome to say that they are acceptable tarkets because A) yer payin for it and B) the more units you augment the higher probability you have to roll a 1 or a 6 and lose blokes.

Wow.
Laserbait.
Way to state the obvious.

Thanks for commenting without actually reading the post, too. You've done SO much not to advance the topic. You should be rewarded.


I never asked what Force Org slot each fell under. I'm quite aware of that. Thank you.



Go back and look at it again. If you pay attention, you'll see that I state the point I'm trying to make quite clearly.

I'd have been less bored with a "Unit name" vs "Heading" response.

Eric

Not looking to get into a war here. I did read your convoluted, rambling post. Not once, but three times.

Your arguement seems to be:
A - Fabius Bile can or cannot affect other troops.
B - Indignation that Raptors got their own seperate "heading".

I stated the breakdown of troops types because I was not clear that you understood them. I stand corrected.

Carry on with your bad self and have a nice day.

"Any number of Chaos Space Marine squads ...."

I was thinking of this myself when the book first came out and I decided it only applied to Chaos Space Marine squads, the Troop, because they're actually called that.

If you wanted something more specific, you could look inside the statline description where it goes.

Chosen 18 Points/Model WS4 BS4 etc
Chaos Space Marine 15 Points/Model WS4 BS4 etc
Chaos Biker 33 Points/Model WS4 BS4 etc
Chaos Havoc 15 Points/Model WS4 BS4 etc

Admittedly it would be very cool if Chosen, Bikers and even Havocs could take the upgrade.

Taco, you came to the exact same conclusion I did.
The same way, it seems.

Knowing, however, that GW has *on occasion* :eyeroll: made errors in presenting their ideas, leaving out details that they SEEM to presume we understand, I think the idea I presented as "Devil's Advocate" holds water as a POSSIBILITY until a FAQ disagrees.

I see everything you do in the latter half of the book. Where it breaks each unit down by type and name. THAT is what I based my final judgement on.

Let me present a question.

What is the purpose of lumping those units together under the heading of "Chaos Space Marine" in the first half of the book (the Forces of Chaos section, the SAME section where it describes Fabius's "enhancement" ability)? What purpose does it serve to put them there, except to save space?
If the reason is to save space, then why give Raptors their own Heading? Why not put THEM under "Chaos Space Marine" and give Chosen their own Heading?

Just some thoughts.
Thanks for the lucid and constructive reply. I hope to hear more from you and others with constructive opinions/thoughts on the topic!




Machine:
I don't see that anyone could find reasonable justification for trying to include any unit other than CSM, Bikers, Chosen & Havocs in the "Fabius enhancement" scenario. On the same token, I'd have a hard time telling someone they were WRONG if they chose to interpret it to ALLOW the 3 extra units I mentioned to benefit from it.

Like you said, (a) they're paying for it and (b) the more they use it, the higher the chance of rolling a 6 (the 1 doesn't scare me that much).
Of course, it's only 3 points a model... in the old Chaos Codex, Demonic Strength cost what? Ten points? Fifteen points? And THAT was only available on Champs & HQ!

I could see someone's problem with that.


Eric

"Chaos Space Marines" is the actual name of a squad.

If a rule says "any number of Chaos Space Marine squads XXX. . ." only actual "Chaos Space Marine" squads are eligible. Any other interpretation is wishful thinking.


Just because another unit shares the same words doesn't make it the same unit. a "Possessed Chaos Space Marine" squad is no more a "Chaos Space Marine" squad then "Jump Infantry" is "Infantry".

Show me where it specifies what it is referring to, though.

I still maintain that one could interpret "squad" differently than you are. Honestly, they'd probably be right. Read on.

"Chaos Space Marines" is NOT the name of a squad. It is the name of a UNIT.

While it DOES say, under Fabius's rules, "...any Chaos Space Marine squad...," it does NOT say "....any Chaos Space Marine Unit..." There's a difference. Chaos Space Marines as you refer to them are a Unit of CSM, not a squad... not JUST a squad, anyway. If the text specified "unit," then there would be no discussion. It, however, does not.

Every Unit I refer to has a listed "Squad Size" in the Army list (back part) in the codex. They are ALL "squads." The term "squad" is never used to refer solely to the Unit called "Chaos Space Marines." They are all referred to as "squads."

Your last couple sentences actually support this theory, in a way... You refer to Infantry and Jump Infantry and their differences. Granted, I'm comparing the Rulebook to the Codex. I know they don't always agree. For the sake of this point, though, I have to.

Infantry are different than Jump Infantry. You said it. I said it. The rulebook says it. That's the point, though. The rulebook SAYS it. The codex does not say ANYWHERE what UNITS it refers to. It only refers to "squads" which, as I said already, is a term that is universal among ALL units in the codex except tanks and walkers. Even the units we KNOW to be single (D. Princes, Lords, etc.) are called "squad." The ONLY place in the codex where it does ANY sort of specifying is where it groups those 4 units under the heading of "Chaos Space Marines." Granted it's a more GENERAL specification than a SPECIFIC one... but it's the ONLY specification in the book, for that case. 

Now, I know that you think that, because you're the Dakka owner, you can come into someone's thread and just throw your weight around. Fact is, though... Just kidding, Yak. Had ya going. Didn't I?

Seriously, though... I'd love to see some specifics (rules, FAQ's, etc) quoted to support your side. I have been unable to find anything to prove, undeniably, that it's not meant that way.

Thanks!

Eric

I see where your coming from magickal. Thats much like the ATSKNF rule that just says all "Space Marines". I don't have my codex on hand at the moment, but there are a lot of "Space Marines" that don't have the actual name Space Marine in their unit name.

LOL

Well, I don't know what ATSKNF stands for... so, I can't comment on that.


True... but that's neither here nor there. I'm not hypothesizing that they might qualify due to what is or isn't in their Unit name. I'm hypothesizing it based on the text of Fabius Bile and the fact that the 4 units are all listed under "Chaos Space Marines" in the "Forces of Chaos" section.

Since you're referring to SM's, let me throw something at you...

From the SM codex:


Let's say I take a minimum sized terminator Command Squad... a Sgt & 3 temies. Now, I put a Chaplain in Terminator armor & this is his command squad. I have 5 models in Terminator armor. Four Terminators & a Chaplain. Can the Chaplain ride in the LR? Why? He isn't a Terminator. He's just in Terminator armor. I've never seen a rule that says all models in Termie armor ARE Termies. The LR's entry says nothing about mixed UNIT types (his UNIT type is still a Chaplain). We count him as a Terminator because he's in Terminator armor & attached to a Terminator squad... but he's still not ACTUALLY a Terminator.

We use our common sense to deduct that One Chaplain in Termie armor = one Terminator. Right? Makes sense to me. It just seems that they meant for the rules to include anyone IN Terminator armor AS a Terminator, in this case.

Why is there a difference between that & the CSM thought I proposed? I'm not trying to change anyones UNIT designation. I'm just wondering if the Fabius Bile text in the "Forces..." section could be referring to the CSM ENTRY in the "Forces..." section. In that case, Chosen, Bikers & Havocs would seem to be included, as well.

KWIM?

Eric

ATSKNF
Stands for
"And They Shall Know No Brains"(Fear) lol

after reading the chaos book a few times over the last day or so, I'm going to have to go with option 2.... fabius' entry does specify CSM squads, not units and the 4 types of squads are listed as CSM in the description area of the codex.

just MHO

I gotta go with option 1. Since "Chaos Space Marines" is actually the name of a specific unit in the codex, Fabius Bile's rule appears to apply just to that unit.

While I can see where you're coming from that there's a little ambiguity here, I still think this is reasonably clear. Even if you find it ambiguous, it would definitely fall under the rule of thumb that when there is an ambiguous rule, the acting player should take the less-powerful interpretation.

Hmmm, this is an interesting problem. As the codex is written it is open to all sorts of different interpretations and problems. In my opinion I think they probably only meant for Fabius to augment the vanilla Chaos Space Marine squads, but I personally wouldn't have any problem if you extended the augmentation to bikers, havocs, and chosen. I'm sure about the Raptors though. I wish they could be augmented to give them a boost, but they seem to be something different than chaos marines with jump packs. Really it's pretty vague, so if your opponent is OK with it then try augmenting a few other things, it's not like it's free, so he can't argue you're abusing the rules or anything.

I think we all know that this "upgrade" is only ment for basic chaos space marines.... (this was also the case in the old codex) the rest is wishfull thinking. If it would be possible for other type of units to get this upgrade...the would say so.

I agree that the should have written: "only basic chaos space marine squads" to make it totally dummieproof.

for my 2 cents, and stemming from a disscussion that came from when the nercon codex came out, for a squads "type" I woudl look athe stat line, and chaos marines troop choice is the only one that acaully says "Chaos Space Marine" in the stat line

One other thing that increases the ambiguity level of this issue... The previous codex (I don't have the ones before that) SPECIFICALLY ELIMINATES all UNITS except the UNIT called Chaos Space Marines.
It specifically states "no bikers, no raptors) etc... This Codex does not.


Eric

doesnt say that you can use other units either. You can use this upgrade for chaos space marines.

--> see troops selection--> chaos space marines.
It doesnt say: by this we mean bikes,chosen etc. And if the ment this upgrade to be for all units...the would say so....the wouldnt say chaos space marines..the would say: any units.

shogun wrote:doesnt say that you can use other units either. You can use this upgrade for chaos space marines.

--> see troops selection--> chaos space marines.
It doesnt say: by this we mean bikes,chosen etc. And if the ment this upgrade to be for all units...the would say so....the wouldnt say chaos space marines..the would say: any units.

THe previous codex doesn't say that. the one before that might have said it like that I don't have that one.

Anothing thing you could look for is somewhere in the special rules where it says "Terminology" or something similar. I know Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters have a little paragrah that specifically outlines what counts as a Grey Knight or a Sister of Battle.
Of course, those are old codex's with lots of special rules that don't apply to every unit, but it might be in there.

Shaman of Chaos wrote:

shogun wrote:doesnt say that you can use other units either. You can use this upgrade for chaos space marines.

--> see troops selection--> chaos space marines.
It doesnt say: by this we mean bikes,chosen etc. And if the ment this upgrade to be for all units...the would say so....the wouldnt say chaos space marines..the would say: any units.

The previous codex doesn't say that. the one before that might have said it like that I don't have that one.

He's not saying it did. What he's saying (albeit horribly spelling and grammar wise) is that while it doesn't say "no bikers, no raptors" etc, it also doesn't say "you may take bikers, raptors" etc. It's not a refute to the whole argument. Just one to the argument that says "well the previous codex says this".

I ment to be quoting Magical Memories my bad my post was supposed to be in responce to this

"One other thing that increases the ambiguity level of this issue... The previous codex (I don't have the ones before that) SPECIFICALLY ELIMINATES all UNITS except the UNIT called Chaos Space Marines.
It specifically states "no bikers, no raptors) etc... This Codex does not."

THe previous codex did not specifically state no bikers, no raptors, etc./

Better question:

Why are you taking Fabius Bile?

He's a rubbish character.

BYE

Its not about the character itself...Its about reading the rules and 'wishfull thinking'

And if it is possible to give power weapon terminators an extra Strenght...its worth considering it.(for example)..

THe previous codex did not specifically state no bikers, no raptors, etc./

Do you have the last printing? My copy is the LAST printing they did, and it DOES specifically state that.

Why are you taking Fabius Bile?

He's a rubbish character

Well, that's a bit of a given, there. LOL
Under normal circumstances, I would NOT take him. I brought it up simply for the same of discussion.

We HAVE used him in friendly games within our group, where we make up armies "just to try something different" and do stuff we normally wouldn't... Things like that.

Of course, between the 3 of us, we have enough armies & minis to do that, too. Heck... just one guy has enough for that. LOL

He would be a little bit of a beating stick if his Rod of Torment was a Demon -or even a power- Weapon.

Its not about the character itself...Its about reading the rules and 'wishfull thinking'

And if it is possible to give power weapon terminators an extra Strenght...its worth considering it.(for example)..

Not in the way I presented it, it isn't.
I specifically limited my hypotheseis to units that were under the heading "Chaos Space Marines" in the front half of the book.
Those are CSM, Chosen, Bikers & Havocs.


Later, all.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Do you have the last printing? My copy is the LAST printing they did, and it DOES specifically state that.

NO I don't, thats a little messed up that they changed something in between printings and don't have it in the FAQ

Shaman of Chaos wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Do you have the last printing? My copy is the LAST printing they did, and it DOES specifically state that.

NO I don't, thats a little messed up that they changed something in between printings and don't have it in the FAQ

GW do something messed up?

Nah!

Surely, it's just your perspective! :wink:


The good news is that it's an unimportant codex, since we no longer need it, and we only have ONE version of a codex to argue over the rules with!

Eric