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I've read a lot of posts on here stating that one type of unit or another is "too tough", 'too powerful', "too hard to take out". I have seen suggestions on how to take these units down to a more manageable level by basically hamstringing them to the other players advantage.

Whatever happened to overcoming challenge? I know I would much rather face a insert your hard-to-kill-monster-here and beat it fairly, than have the unit made so worthless that it was a mockery.

To use a related gaming type experience, the first time I played Halo, I thought it was a cool game. Then I met my first Hunter. "No problem" I thought, casually lobbing a plasma grenade. As the flash went off I turned to look at my friend and said "I thought you said they were tough?"
He laughed and pointed, I turned back just in time to see the Hunter (still very much alive, thank you) send my Spartan to an untimely end. "Holy Carp!" I yelled, "WTF just happened?". Hit replay and try again. And again. And yet again until I figured the trick to it. After that, Hunters weren't a horror anymore. But it was still satisfying to take him down.

In TTG's, or any game for that matter, you need a challenge. Else it wouldn't be fun, to my point of view anyway.

Take for instance Carnifexes. I see much grumbling and sputtering about them. Not having the codex, or even playing against them in 4th, I cannot comment on how "uber-broke" they are or aren't.
But, I know that the win would be more satisfying, to me, to take it (them) down by the book, than having to re-write rules to nerf them into non-existence.


I am not trying to offend anyone, nor start a war, just expressing my thoughts. Feedback and counter-commentary welcome.

Yes, it is well worth learning to overcome a challenge.

There may be units in the game that actually are broken -- rending assault cannons are probably a fair example.

But no doubt people complain about stuff that isn't as bad as it seems. (I remember a thread moaning at length about Tau Smart Missiles.)

I think its more a question of balance. Some things are so good that there is no reason to take anything other than those things. While you are correct it is fun to overcome challenges, seeing everyone load up on Carnifexs or Falcons gets really old after awhile. I'm fortunate that my gaming group likes variety so we get to see more than Nidzilla everytime.

Now one of the things I like about Apocalypse is the ability to take Titans and Superheavies and those are a lot of fun to try and take down. But then again, Apoc is a different sort of game than regular 40k.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I don't see why everyone thinks Falcons are so hard. Mine get blown away by the end of Turn 2.

But then, I change things up from game to game. and don't give my units every upgrade in the book either. There are too many other units I want to include, rather than turn my tanks into point sinks. And, with the Eldar being kind of frail, I prefer to put as many models on the table as possible.

But I digress. The point being that every army has some "unstoppable" killing machine. Are we going to cry 'Foul!' every time we see one? Or, is the better player the one who can overcome the obstacles and get a good game in, win or lose. Hel, I remember back in 2nd edition, facing an all terminator SM army with my fledgling Eldar warhost. 3 guardian squads, one DA squad a farseer & wraithlord against 20 Termites including a captain, chaplain and librarian. At the end of it, I was seriously wondering if I wanted to continue with this hobby until someone who witnessed the slaughter told me the guy was a rules lawyering, bearded cheese-meister.
Speaking as a player who has more losses than wins, I still enjoy the game and the camraderie of fellow players. I would rather have a good game and lose, than a knuckle-biting-rules-confrontation at every move and win.

I don't see why everyone thinks Falcons are so hard. Mine get blown away by the end of Turn 2.

But then, I change things up from game to game. and don't give my units every upgrade in the book either. There are too many other units I want to include, rather than turn my tanks into point sinks. And, with the Eldar being kind of frail, I prefer to put as many models on the table as possible.

You gave your own answer; your Falcons are self-handicapped. Good for you, but irrelevant in the "Is this particular unit too good?" calculus, as you aren't USING the unit in question.

Basic assumption in all "Falcons are extremely survivable" conversations: Holofields, Spirit Stones, and Vectored Engines. Star Engines are often involved, as well, for 36" move/tank-shock options. The problem isn't the base template (Falcon, Carnifex), it's what the most advantageous options are (uber-Falcon, Dakkafex). Some options are just so good that there is no reason to take anything else, unless you are intentionally handicapping yourself.

But I digress. The point being that every army has some "unstoppable" killing machine.

Not true. And those armies which lack such a beatstick are commonly referred to as lower tier armies, at least in tournament discussion.

Are we going to cry 'Foul!' every time we see one? Or, is the better player the one who can overcome the obstacles and get a good game in, win or lose.

Two things here. First, there is a lot of outright complaining that goes on about some units, but it's often mixed in with attempts at countering a particular unit/tactic ("Well, does this work? Or how about this?"). Second, it's pretty much a given that most of us like to have fun games. But playing against units/unit combinations/armies against which there is no available counter makes for a relatively unfun game.

Confused a bit here. First you say that I am "handicapping" myself, then state that " But playing against units/unit combinations/armies against which there is no available counter makes for a relatively unfun game. "

Soooo, if I make my units "uber hard", I am killing your fun, but If I don't then I am handicapping myself, and supposedly killing my own fun.

Lets work with the example of the falcon, since we have started discussing it.

Base falcon - 115 points
Add 2nd weapon: +5 for shuricannon ( I know, but work with me here! )
vectored engines + 20
star engines +15
Holofields + 35
spirit stones + 10
bringing us to a total of: 200 points

And what do these upgrades give the player?
VE - a counter to falling out of the sky. A LR gets immobilized it becomes a pillbox. A flacon/prism gets immobilized, it becomes a bomb without VE.

SE - an additional 12" move and a perk against incoming damage

HF - the dread game breaking upgrade. causes the opponent to roll two dice for damage on pen, taking the lowest. Not too shabby actually if you are good at rolling 5 & 6's.

SS - crew stunned vs crew shaken, vehicle operates 'on its own' for a turn. hmmmm sounds like power of the machine spirit to me.

Now lets look at SM vehicle upgrades.
Dozer - re=roll difficult terrain, cost 5 points

Extra armor - crew stunned vs crew shaken, cost 5 points

HK missile - krak, unlimited range, BS4, cost 15 points

PM Stormbolter - extra weapon, AA, cost 10 points

Power of the Machine Spirit - crew stunned, vehicle operates on its own, can fire one weapon. cost 30 points

searchlight - nightvision, negates nightfight rule for other SM units firing on same target, cost 1 point

smoke launchers - concealment, ALL shots that pen become glancing, cost 3 points.

So, for a SM player to get the same effect of the spiritstones, he has to spend 35 points to my 10. But, if a player put all those options on his LR's and kept tank shocking troops, would the screams of anguish be as great as that against falcons? I mean, only a handful of weapons available to the eldar can even hope to glance against an LR, but you don't hear of folks claiming LR's are "impossible" to kill.

Actually if the Dark/Blood angels codex along with chaos is any indication, extra armor will be going up to 15 points in a new space marine codex.

A skimmer can go fast making it glancing hits only which is absurd when it even is glancing hits only in HtH let alone you must hit the Skimmer on 6s. Now tell that to any HtH army to accomplish killing most Eldar and Tau skimmers moving fast and they will most of the time struggle to kill it vs a rhino or a landraider.

Laserbait wrote:Confused a bit here. First you say that I am "handicapping" myself, then state that " But playing against units/unit combinations/armies against which there is no available counter makes for a relatively unfun game. "

Soooo, if I make my units "uber hard", I am killing your fun, but If I don't then I am handicapping myself, and supposedly killing my own fun.

Sorry if I've confused you. I'm not concerned whether your choice to play a kinder, gentler falcon impacts your fun (though apparently it adds to it, which is nice). My only point, as far as self-restraint goes, is that you can't draw conclusions as to the viability of uber-Falcons, if your point of comparison is a Falcon lacking what have fast become "standard" upgrades. (It's like comparing fast food hamburgers to steak; same base animal, but the latter is much more impressive, even if it costs a bit more.)

Laserbait wrote:
Lets work with the example of the falcon, since we have started discussing it.

Base falcon - 115 points
Add 2nd weapon: +5 for shuricannon ( I know, but work with me here! )
vectored engines + 20
star engines +15
Holofields + 35
spirit stones + 10
bringing us to a total of: 200 points

And what do these upgrades give the player?
VE - a counter to falling out of the sky. A LR gets immobilized it becomes a pillbox. A flacon/prism gets immobilized, it becomes a bomb without VE.

SE - an additional 12" move and a perk against incoming damage

HF - the dread game breaking upgrade. causes the opponent to roll two dice for damage on pen, taking the lowest. Not too shabby actually if you are good at rolling 5 & 6's.

SS - crew stunned vs crew shaken, vehicle operates 'on its own' for a turn. hmmmm sounds like power of the machine spirit to me.

Now lets look at SM vehicle upgrades.
Dozer - re=roll difficult terrain, cost 5 points

Extra armor - crew stunned vs crew shaken, cost 5 points

HK missile - krak, unlimited range, BS4, cost 15 points

PM Stormbolter - extra weapon, AA, cost 10 points

Power of the Machine Spirit - crew stunned, vehicle operates on its own, can fire one weapon. cost 30 points

searchlight - nightvision, negates nightfight rule for other SM units firing on same target, cost 1 point

smoke launchers - concealment, ALL shots that pen become glancing, cost 3 points.

So, for a SM player to get the same effect of the spiritstones, he has to spend 35 points to my 10. But, if a player put all those options on his LR's and kept tank shocking troops, would the screams of anguish be as great as that against falcons? I mean, only a handful of weapons available to the eldar can even hope to glance against an LR, but you don't hear of folks claiming LR's are "impossible" to kill.

1) Dozer blades stop working if you move over 6".
2) Spirit stones are equivalent to Extra Armor.
3) Power of the Machine Spirit is essentially irrelevent here, as Eldar don't have the equivalent. Unless you've suggesting that a BS 2 twin-linked lascannon is a huge advantage?
4) Smoke launchers deprive the Land Raider of the ability to shoot that turn, and can only be used once. The rest of the time, the Land Raider is subject to penetrating hits. "Skimmers moving fast" is always on, and doesn't even inhibit firing (if you want to move between 6" and 12").
5) Land Raiders can't move 36" in a turn.

Mathematically, a Land Raider isn't anywhere near as survivable as a Falcon. And it can't tank shock you from 24"-36" away. And it STILL costs more than the Falcon.

(And how, barring fixed dice, are you supposed to be "good" at rolling 5's and 6's? There are exactly 4 results out of 36 possible which will kill a holofielded Falcon on a glancing hit. You've got a considerably better shot killing a Land Raider on a glance, and that's before you even consider penetrating hits.)

Laserbait, theoryhammer is great (and Janthkin has done a good job responding to you on that level), but the simple fact is that you're basing your assessment of Falcons off your experience with a single, not fully uprgaded Falcon, and your assessment of nidzilla off, well, nothing, really. Play a few games against a good player using these combos as they are optimally fielded, then come back and tell us why you think they're not all that.

Really, if you haven't actually faced or used 3 GodFalcon Eldar or a lean mean nidzilla, you are just wasting our time with threads like this.

All of this math-hammer is unnecessary. Laserbait, you've stated that the enjoyment comes from finding the trick to defeating the enemy. The trick to dakkafices and falcons is that there is no trick. The only way to defeat them is to avoid them or be possessed of blind, stupid luck. They are locks without keys, jigsaw puzzles with pieces missing, radio show messages with no secret decoder rings.

thehod wrote:Actually if the Dark/Blood angels codex along with chaos is any indication, extra armor will be going up to 15 points in a new space marine codex.

A skimmer can go fast making it glancing hits only which is absurd when it even is glancing hits only in HtH let alone you must hit the Skimmer on 6s. Now tell that to any HtH army to accomplish killing most Eldar and Tau skimmers moving fast and they will most of the time struggle to kill it vs a rhino or a landraider.

Perhaps that is GW's way of telling H2H only players to put some anti-tank into their list. Are there any pure H2H armies that can't get long-range weapons and stuff?

I should think any army that maxes out in one particular direction -- it could be Tau firing line or Orky H2H -- is going to be vulnerable to a more balanced force.

Having said that, the Eldar vehicle upgrades are exremely good. I am not surprised people are complaining about them.

Laserbait wrote:

HF - the dread game breaking upgrade. causes the opponent to roll two dice for damage on pen, taking the lowest. Not too shabby actually if you are good at rolling 5 & 6's.


So, for a SM player to get the same effect of the spiritstones, he has to spend 35 points to my 10. But, if a player put all those options on his LR's and kept tank shocking troops, would the screams of anguish be as great as that against falcons? I mean, only a handful of weapons available to the eldar can even hope to glance against an LR, but you don't hear of folks claiming LR's are "impossible" to kill.

*Sigh*. That's a ridiculously ignorant statement. Not too shabby if you're "good" at rolling 5 & 6's. Really? Is that why we all have such a hard time killing Falcons, because we haven't gotten good enough at rolling 5 & 6's? Do we need to get back to the table and start practicing our rolls until we get it right?

A Holo-field has no weaknesses. None. Nothing. It works fantastically against everything in the game with absolutely no exceptions.

A Land Raider, no matter how many upgrades you give it is always vulnerable to S9 & 10 weapons.


You need to get out and play some games against some 3 Falcon all mechanized Eldar and properly tuned Godzilla armies and you'll see just how much of a challenge such armies are to beat. The problem is, at some point units stop being a challenge and just become frustration.

Wow. A lot of hostility towards a player trying to understand the difficulty others are having with a particular unit.

Thanks guys. You're a swell bunch.

Laserbait wrote:Wow. A lot of hostility towards a player trying to understand the difficulty others are having with a particular unit.

Thanks guys. You're a swell bunch.

I think you're reading hostility into responses that are just frank.

And how, barring fixed dice, are you supposed to be "good" at rolling 5's and 6's? There are exactly 4 results out of 36 possible which will kill a holofielded Falcon on a glancing hit. You've got a considerably better shot killing a Land Raider on a glance, and that's before you even consider penetrating hits

Really, if you haven't actually faced or used 3 GodFalcon Eldar or a lean mean nidzilla, you are just wasting our time with threads like this

Sigh*. That's a ridiculously ignorant statement

Not too shabby if you're "good" at rolling 5 & 6's. Really? Is that why we all have such a hard time killing Falcons, because we haven't gotten good enough at rolling 5 & 6's? Do we need to get back to the table and start practicing our rolls until we get it right?

Yeah, it must all be in my head.
I suppose you have never met anyone who has the extraordinary luck to roll consistently high? I know one or two people that are blessed with that talent. No trick, just good luck.

And in the end, this game is just as much about the luck of the dice as it is strategy and tactics.

Or does the phrase "Anything but a 1" mean nothing to anyone here?

Laserbait wrote:

And how, barring fixed dice, are you supposed to be "good" at rolling 5's and 6's? There are exactly 4 results out of 36 possible which will kill a holofielded Falcon on a glancing hit. You've got a considerably better shot killing a Land Raider on a glance, and that's before you even consider penetrating hits

Really, if you haven't actually faced or used 3 GodFalcon Eldar or a lean mean nidzilla, you are just wasting our time with threads like this

Sigh*. That's a ridiculously ignorant statement

Not too shabby if you're "good" at rolling 5 & 6's. Really? Is that why we all have such a hard time killing Falcons, because we haven't gotten good enough at rolling 5 & 6's? Do we need to get back to the table and start practicing our rolls until we get it right?

Yeah, it must all be in my head.
I suppose you have never met anyone who has the extraordinary luck to roll consistently high? I know one or two people that are blessed with that talent. No trick, just good luck.

And in the end, this game is just as much about the luck of the dice as it is strategy and tactics.

Or does the phrase "Anything but a 1" mean nothing to anyone here?

I don't see where anyone was hostile towards you in any of those responses. More to the point you are continuing on with complete hogwash and I'm not being hostile or angry or insulting but what you are saying is not only wrong it is absurd.

It doesn't matter if anyone is lucky at rolling any numbers on the dice, that doesn't change whether or not something is categorically good or bad. Statistics don't fortell you how you're actually going to roll on any given roll, they simply tell you how likely it is a result will occur given enough samples.

It is a basic measuring stick that can absolutely give you vital information on how useful a unit or weapon will be over the course of many games.

For example, a glancing hit on a Land Raider will destroy it on one result out of 6 (a '6'), but to destroy (not immobilize) a Holo-field Falcon only occurs on one result (a '6,6') out of 36 possibilities.

So yes, on any given roll of 2D6 two sixes can be rolled but the chances of that happening are incredibly lower than rolling a single '6' on 1D6. In short, the Holo-field creates an incredibly potent defense against any and all attacks and there is nothing in the game that gives you a way around that defense.


If you can't understand this concept, I don't really know what else to tell you.

Take your own Halo example. Lets say the first time you run into a hunter, you never manage to beat him. You try for weeks because you're going to overcome this challenge! You go online to find the trick to the event, only to find out the only possible strategy is to keep throwing yourself at it and one in 36 tries he just falls over dead instead of fighting back. 'OK' you think 'I can handle that challenge!' you throw yourself at him and 45 lives and 3 hours later you get through! Awesome!
You turn the next corner, only to find another hunter...

There's challenges to overcome, and then there's stuff that's just plain broken.

[quote=thehod
Now tell that to any HtH army to accomplish killing most Eldar and Tau skimmers moving fast and they will most of the time struggle to kill it vs a rhino or a landraider.

>>And in the end, this game is just as much about the luck of the dice as it is strategy and tactics.

>>Or does the phrase "Anything but a 1" mean nothing to anyone here?

The point of strategy and tactics is to try and remove as much luck of the dice from the game as possible by putting your forces into situations where they are not reliant on pure luck to win.

@laserbait: I don't know how savvy you are around newsgroups, forums, etc. but there's a reason you're getting the reaction you are. First, it's not hostile. People are calling out your sillier comments, but I don't think anything personal or cruel has been said.

Second, the topic of Falcons has been beaten to death. You asked why we have the opinions we do, we gave you examples, and you kept arguing. Either you simply don't accept the premises of the collective wisdom (which you are free to do) or you aren't understanding our posts. Whichever way you choose, continuing to argue this point is going to annoy folks, simply because we've had the arguement before.

Keep in mind that you have relatively low post count, and fair or not, the presumption that a new poster is a troll is higher than a veteran.

We love debate and new ideas, but the falcon question isn't either.

Hey Laserbait, don't let them get you down.

The collective seems to think Falcons are boogeymen.

What's strange is, no one seems willing to accept that the rest of the Eldar army is T3 with crap for saves.

Most armies don't have a problem slicing the rest of the Eldar army up, but apparently if only you played 'good' players or 'tuned' lists you'd understand.

Funny thing, I just played such a list. It wasn't like my Eldar army but it had the 3 Falcons.

2 were alive at the end of the game.

The rest of the Eldar army? Blown to pieces.

If it was a tournament, I'd have two quarters; he'd have 1 and we'd both contest 1. If it was a victory points mission, I'd have won as 1600 dead out of 2000 vs my 600 dead equals a win.

So what's the 'secret'? Let the Eldar player bring his 3 Falcons (with the speed upgrade apparently, something I don't do) with their 6 Fire Dragons.

Now keep them stunned, or just ignore them...but make sure you focus all of your 2000 points that you can, into the rest of his force.

Let's figure out what that is. 288 for 3x6 Fire Dragons.
For those with a bent towards Harlequins, that's around 546 for 3x6 Harlie/2 FP/Seer/Kisses units.

Running Falcons with Scatter, Shuri, and all 4 upgrades costs 220x3=660.

Let's theoryhammer out a 'balance' of 2 FD and 1 Harlie unit (just to keep the costs reasonable).

660+184+192=1036.

Now lets not pretend like we're playing in a vacuum, and there is at least 814 points of Eldar.

So, ignore the Falcons. That's 1 Pulse Laser, 2 Scatter Laser, and 1.5 Shuricannon shots (without guide) that are going to hit you every turn. Assume for a moment, you don't have vehicles, just marines.

At some point, his 814 points of Eldar are going to face off against your 1850 army.

Can you crush 814 points of Eldar in 3 turns? I know my armies can. But let's say yours doesn't.

Even focus firing, the Falcons are going to have a hard time blowing enough of your army away to prevent you from first killing his army and then focusing everything on his Falcons.

Alot of people like to theoryhammer in a vacuum, and pretend like how the missions and table are laid out; and what army is fighting the 'Invulnerable' Falcons, is meaningless.

Thankfully, they're wrong. The Falcon isn't part of a dead 'ard army, it's part of a very flexible very maneuver friendly army that's incredibly weak across it's elites, troops, and fast attack choices. Shoot it or assault it, and it goes away.

This was, and is, and probably always will be, the crux of the Eldar army. Sure, you can pack a thousand points away 'safely' if you want to--but what happens when you run into the army that can put out so many shots that eventually you'll get dropped?

I have in my Chaos list 3 multimeltas, 2 missiles, and 6 oblits. That's my anti-tank shooting. It's 'just enough' against heavy mechanized armies like AC and Tau.

Against 3 Falcons? I kill the rest of the army, and start pummeling the Falcons. I only downed 1, but if we'd have bothered with turns 5 and 6 I'm sure with the remaining 7 anti-tank shots I could have accomplished something.

Gaming in a vacuum makes for great theoryhammer, but often as not, really bad actual 40K.

Of course, ignoring the luck factor...at LA, I had all 3 of my Falcons 1 shotted by the IG player. I still won by dint of terrain and the rest of my army and my generalship, but don't let anyone fool you into saying it can't happen just because statistically the Falcon is very hard to down.

Which is what all of this boils down to--Falcons make your dice bleed. Don't throw yourself on your sword, chop up the rest of his army then see to the Falcons.

Oh and comparing apples and oranges is another favorite of the 'I can't beat Falcons so they're broken' argument. Land Raiders are and have been too weak for many many years. Yet, bring 3 of them and many armies/players will have a hard time killing them--but for some reason, people like to ignore that fact by spouting meaningless statistical probabilities. It goes something like this:

I can't kill Falcons on a 6 since I have to roll 2 dice and I get 1-3/6 and they ignore it, but I can Land Raiders. Since they cost the same, Falcons are obviously invulnerable and Land Raiders are crap.

This from 'experienced' gamers who play only the "best" in opponents. Sounds like alot of whining, to be honest, because that's all it is.

Chicago GT, Las Vegas GT, Baltimore GT, and the Ard Boyz tournament in the top 5 at each event there was ONE Eldar player. 20 spots, 1 win.

Let's open it up a little more: Battle points, top 10.
4 at Las Vegas (including myself).
1 at Baltimore.
2 at Chicago.
1 at the 'Ard Boyz.

Tyranids and Space Marines had more wins--and went through Eldar players to win.

Alot, and I do mean alot, of whining goes on about supposed 'best' or 'invulnerable' but it's always whining in a empty room.

Where's the rest of the army? If this is so broken, shouldn't Army X auto-win every tournament?

Note the only 'award' in the Overall or Best General category given to the uber Eldar is one 'Best General' win. Wow they're so awesome, they only won 1 of 7 awards....giggle me purple.

Now where's my asbestos troll costume...I know I left it around here someplace. :p

Stelek wrote:
Alot, and I do mean alot, of whining goes on about supposed 'best' or 'invulnerable' but it's always whining in a empty room.

Where's the rest of the army? If this is so broken, shouldn't Army X auto-win every tournament?

In a game whose system relies extensively on luck and whose playerbase is of such a low average age that serious tactical mistakes are an everyday occurrence, that comment is naive and/or facetious to the point of inanity.

Thank you all for you input, both for and against.

Apparantly there are so many threads on this subject it is unnecessary. However, my original intent was not to discuss falcons per se, but all the supposed broken units. Although I have learned much from this thread, about falcons and other things.

Mods, Admins, or whoever, pleaselock this thread.

@Laserbait
Some maybe reasons why there are so much complains:
When I started Warhammer the Internet was not a everyone's thing. We bought the minis we liked and played games. I never ever defeated my friend in 2ed. It started with 3ed and with "overwatch" gone my Nids swapt all over his marines. You could say my list fited very well with the new edition but there was no one who could've told me which units are the most effective and which not.
Today you got the internet experinced players share their knowledge with everyone. This and the fact, that our hobby is quite expensive. That when people started an army they started with a competetive list. Which is just logic. So it comes to a massive increasement of competive lists in every gaming group then the slow (expensive) way of checking out what a unit is worth game.
In your argument you take a video game as example which is not good because you can retry to beat an opponent in a short time very often. In Warhammer that is not possible.
And playing a time expensive game when you now a single unit just beats you every time is for most poeple very frustrating then challenging. And change the way you play the game and the units you like most just to defeat another army is not acceptable.
There are more other reasons blancing was mentioned. You have to see that here are a lot of good experinced players who can get a bit grumpy when a young upstart tells them how to play.

I find it funny that laserbait wants the thread locked down when he feels a little heat.

- G

""Young upstart""??????
"Possible troll"

Oh the joy of a warm welcome.....

Just to let y'all know:
I am a 45 yo married man with children.
I started in gaming back in 1981, first with AD&D, before moving on to SFB. The players I game with range in age from 16 to 49, and have jobs ranging from Game store boy, architect, EPA worker, a State Trooper, and an ex NYPD officer ( me ) and a retired Federal agent. We have tried the dead-hard-can't-be-touched combos, but to us as a group, there is no joy in a bloodbath. That is NOT a slur against anyone who enjoys that kind of game. We have one of that type in our group as well. The "must win at all costs" player who spends hours finetuning his army.
I currently have an eldar army, Chaos force, half a company of SM's, and a nucleus of Imperial guard. and have been playing the game since 1989.
I enjoy 40K, FOW, classic Battletech, Warmachine, BFG and A Call to Arms.

I know this isn't the right place for a bio, but I felt it was necessary.

Again, my apologies to everyone for starting a topic that was "beaten to death", but I was trying to understand the mindset.

Symbio Joe wrote:@Laserbait
Some maybe reasons why there are so much complains:
When I started Warhammer the Internet was not a everyone's thing. We bought the minis we liked and played games. I never ever defeated my friend in 2ed. It started with 3ed and with "overwatch" gone my Nids swapt all over his marines. You could say my list fited very well with the new edition but there was no one who could've told me which units are the most effective and which not.
Today you got the internet experinced players share their knowledge with everyone. This and the fact, that our hobby is quite expensive. That when people started an army they started with a competetive list. Which is just logic. So it comes to a massive increasement of competive lists in every gaming group then the slow (expensive) way of checking out what a unit is worth game.
In your argument you take a video game as example which is not good because you can retry to beat an opponent in a short time very often. In Warhammer that is not possible.
And playing a time expensive game when you now a single unit just beats you every time is for most poeple very frustrating then challenging. And change the way you play the game and the units you like most just to defeat another army is not acceptable.
There are more other reasons blancing was mentioned. You have to see that here are a lot of good experinced players who can get a bit grumpy when a young upstart tells them how to play.

I think a videogame is a perfect example of why people check online for a competitive edge. People play to win. Gw would like to try to convince people otherwise but effecient units are a combination of points and money.

For example I can buy 10 chaos marines for 45 dollars. They can shoot and fight. They are resilent. They have a value of about 4.4 points per dollar spent.
or I can buy a box of 10 daemonettes for 55 dollars. They can be given no upgrades, appear randomly and have no armour or special abilities (but attack as if
they were chaos marines). They have a value of 2.36 points per dollar spent.

Two units one is obviously a better choice for a beginning player. As a sales person (which GW expects you as a "veteran player" to be), which of those two units would you sell to the noob.

Now tell me what units you would recommend to an Eldar player (starting) with about 300 to spend on his new army. THe mix of expense vs. effectivness tells the honest person to recomend

3 falcons = 120 dollars= 600 points
2 boxes of dire avengers= 60 dollars= 300 points
1 Eldrad= 20 dollars= 200 points
2 boxes of harlequins= 60 dollars= 300 points
1 box of fire dragons= 30 dollars=100 points

300 dollars=1500 points

Green Blow Fly wrote:I find it funny that laserbait wants the thread locked down when he feels a little heat.

- G

The name laserbait makes me think flamebait/target.

Hi Laserbait,

Welcome to DakkaDakka.

Stick around and you will be OK once you get used to the flavour of the forum. There are some very knowledgeable and smart people on Dakka and there are some very opinionated ones too and there can be an overlap (some people in both groups) that leads to acrimony when opinions are expressed without reservation.

Your original post was an interesting topic and it was a pity that everyone got diverted to Falcons.

efarrer wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I find it funny that laserbait wants the thread locked down when he feels a little heat.

- G

The name laserbait makes me think flamebait/target.

The first time I fielded a Vyper, on my opponents turn he fired 3 lascannon from three different squads, toasting it entirely (2nd edition rules) before it even moved.
My opponent said "Sorry, couldn't take a chance, it looked effective"

First time I fielded a 5 man unit of wraithguard, it was targeted by 5 or 6 lascannon from a dread, a pred, a dev squad, and a tac squad.

The name "Laserbait" came to be used for anything fielded for the first time that met a fiery end before the end of the turn.

Thanks for the welcome KilKrazy, first one I got.