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I just picked up the new Chaos dex after much debate. I was planning on never playing 40k regularly again... but as I've been moved into the wilderness due to work, 40k seems to be the only game in town... and staying with an outdated dex is a faux-pas in my book...

Here's the breakdown of what I have - I was building them as Iron Warriors-esque with a heavy techmarine feel... half the seargents are techmarines. I'm thinking about pushing it more towards a renegade Adeptus Mechanicus style army.

Converted lord on a bike with illegal meltagun and an equally illegal servo-arm. Counts-as-twinlink-bolter now I guess.
Foot lord with uh... well... he's actually the direct services techmarine with no conversion work and no harness at the moment.
4x6 Las Plas teams. I'll need to push these to 10 men to make it work
5x Terminators
2x Rhinos with extra armor
2x8 Havoc teams with 4x HB w/ fist aspiring champions
6x Lovingly converted heavy gun servitors - obliterators - who are now largely crap
1x Vindicator
1x Basilisk (counts as another Vindicator I guess...)
1x Predator (yet to be built!)
2x Dreads (yet to be built!)

Here's my initial thoughts:

Obliterators - while they pour out decent anti-tank dakka, I'm not sure they warrant the 75 point cost, as the entire team has to use the same gun, they lost T5, all the multi-shot guns, and can't fight in HTH worth a damn. I was thinking about running a dreadnought+3x oblit block on a flank, but it is slow and seems too expensive for what you get.

Chaos marines - ARGH. I think I'll take the 2 minimum size squads and maybe load up on some generi-daemons and give my boss-man a personal icon... Er... make that ARCO-FLAGELEANTS (in my renegade Adeptus Mechanicus or Daemonettes... before I can't buy the metals...) or something. The rest can be promoted to elites... only trouble is that this competes with dread-space.

Chaos Lords - ARGHx2. Is it just me, or does the undivided daemon weapon SUCK. Picking another mark seems like the cheap way out... though I suppose the MOS+Lash could be modelled and repped by a GRAVITON GUN.

Predator - points seem good.

Havocs - didn't seem to loose much.

Vindicator - Hooray.

Basilisk - Boo!

Anyhow. Before I buy much more stuff... maybe you guys can give me some ideas on what works. I haven't had a chance to fully form up a list, but with the reduction in utility in a bunch of units, and the cost increase of the basic CSM squad... I sure won't be packing as much dakka.

Yeah... Iron warriors kind of got hosed with the elimination of specific armies from the back of the older codex.

Proxying... err... using the basilisk to "COUNT AS" a Vindicator seems a decent move to me.
I don't know that you'd ever NEED 2, but it can't hurt to have it.

Here are some of my observations.


Converted Bike Lord -- No huge loss. I'm not certain you'd ever use him, anyway. Bikers aren't exactly what they used to be, anyway.
"Foot Lord" Here's more promise than the biker... but Daemon Princes tend to be the best HQ buy. LOVE Those Greater Daemons, too.

Havocs: Round out your heavy Weapon choices.

Obliterators: More than meets the eye. My whole group HATED them when we read them... and we're still occasionally flustered by our inability to open up with a heavy Bolter on a unit of troops... and I am none too fond of their move to heavy Support, either...
Overall, though... if I'd never seen the OLD oblits, I'd be very fond of these. YES, they die from S8 shots. It's part of the game... but they can really UNLOAD on troops & tanks alike. They get PLASMA CANNONS(!) now. I almost never play a list without a unit... or 2...
As far as HtH goes... I had 2 Oblits (started as 3) take out a squad of 4 Nurgle Termies Saturday.
I got lucky with 4 hits... and 4 wounds was almost guaranteed... and the enemy missed their 4 Invul saves... Yay, Obliterators!
Try 'em... they are pretty good in a balanced list.


Predator: Still a good Heavy choice.

Dreads...

Hmm... Why?
New dreads got hammered even more than they were. I'd avoid them like the plaque.


CSM's... Look over your options. They're a lot deadlier as troops go, now. Of course, the Champs aren't NEARLY as tough... but the units make up for it. Icons are AWESOME!
I would stay away from the generic Daemons If possible, they're worse than the OLD generic Demons (except that they don't get sucked back into the warp, now, after a few shooting deaths... and they can claim now, too).

Undivided Daemon Weapon doesn't SUCK... It just isn't GREAT.
Personally, I'm not fond of the D-Weapons, due to the "roll a 1" issues.

Chosen are pretty cool. They're VERY flexible.

Possessed blow.
Many people will disagree with me. That's fine. My thing is... you can't count on them. You don't know WHAT their ability is until AFTER deployment, and you can roll some really crappy abilities...

"Yay! I get Fleet... I can run swiftly towards you and beat you about the head and ears with this foam covered stick"
"What's that? My GIANT 'crab claw' arm? My mutated sword arm? Nah! Those are just for decoration"

Thousand Sons & deathguard are VERY NICE. Emp's Kids are pretty good, too.



Eric

Possessed blow.
Many people will disagree with me.

I doubt it. Possessed are near-universally hated. Neat models, pity about the rules.

Yeah, I have a friend who runs a ten-man unit of them. They work well for what they are, which is a group of marines that can be cool and come with a 5+ invuln. He got lucky in the last game I saw, and they got "Feel No Pain", and in an apocalypse game, they were reeking havoc in the ranks of the Imperial Guard, but that's not too difficult. I'd say give them a try a couple of times, and if you don't like them... paint them up real purdy and stick them on a shelf until Ruinous Powers comes out and possibly saves them from well-dressed mediocrity.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:I doubt it. Possessed are near-universally hated. Neat models, pity about the rules.

Well, I'm glad to hear you guys say that.

It scares me, though... Whenever I see chaos lists posted, asking for advice, I see people respond on how tough possessed are on, probably, one of every 3 lists.

It gives me shivers.

You are spot-on about the models.
I love them.
They will be used with regular CSM kits to make my chosen.


Eric

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

Possessed blow.
Many people will disagree with me.

I doubt it. Possessed are near-universally hated. Neat models, pity about the rules.

Possessed are hated? Say it ain't so!

They look killy, then you roll and every result is:

Ignore Me, I Suck.
Shoot Me, I'm Uber!

Sigh. GW and their little random tables for Chaos. Dreads, Possessed, and Fabius Bile's 'enhanced' warriors.

G-d grant me the serenity to accept the things GW cannot change...

By the way, the only models I've ever physically destroyed in a rampaging fit of AARGGGH were my Chaos Dreadnoughts. Only ones I just had to throw in my buddies garage, parts of which we're still finding years later. I swear besides a few dice years and years ago, I just don't blow up like that. lol (Oh and it was two dreads, in the same turn....1 and a 6 in the exact opposite of when I needed them...and this was a friendly game! Khaaannnn!!!!!!)

People rag on Possessed, but I tend to disagree. Consider what you get, for an additional 11 points per model you get +1 attack, +5 Invulnerable Save, and a random ability. Of those random abilities only one is crap (Scout) essentially you have a 33% chance for better movement, 33% for better staying power, all of said abilities help them in their assault role. The unit tends to price better then power armored chosen because you don't have to kit out the unit with a bunch of upgrades. The best use I have seen them in is in an Assault Mech list mounted in a Land Raider.

However, the new chaos codex is the codex of the Terminator, no doupt. They got a substantial boost and in my mind are almost madatory. I think one of the better Chaos builds are, a unit or two of mounted CSM that drive forward and acts as homers for deamons and terminators and just rush that up a flank.

I do tend to agree with your feelings towards Oblitorators. They are no longer the mandatory unit they used to be. You can put down many other more useful HS choices for the points it takes to field two oblitorators. My favorate CSM heavy support right now is the CC Defiler. Nothing frightens an opponent more than to see one or two of those beasts rushing (and fleeting) towards their lines.

Mahu wrote:People rag on Possessed, but I tend to disagree. Consider what you get, for an additional 11 points per model you get +1 attack, +5 Invulnerable Save, and a random ability. Of those random abilities only one is crap (Scout) essentially you have a 33% chance for better movement, 33% for better staying power, all of said abilities help them in their assault role. The unit tends to price better then power armored chosen because you don't have to kit out the unit with a bunch of upgrades. The best use I have seen them in is in an Assault Mech list mounted in a Land Raider.

However, the new chaos codex is the codex of the Terminator, no doupt. They got a substantial boost and in my mind are almost madatory. I think one of the better Chaos builds are, a unit or two of mounted CSM that drive forward and acts as homers for deamons and terminators and just rush that up a flank.

I do tend to agree with your feelings towards Oblitorators. They are no longer the mandatory unit they used to be. You can put down many other more useful HS choices for the points it takes to field two oblitorators. My favorate CSM heavy support right now is the CC Defiler. Nothing frightens an opponent more than to see one or two of those beasts rushing (and fleeting) towards their lines.

I will b honest, im not 2 scared of things. I play DE and i tend to have around 10 Dark Lances wandering round the field, it all depends on the terrain that determines my shooting

Mahu wrote:

I do tend to agree with your feelings towards Oblitorators. They are no longer the mandatory unit they used to be. You can put down many other more useful HS choices for the points it takes to field two oblitorators. My favorate CSM heavy support right now is the CC Defiler. Nothing frightens an opponent more than to see one or two of those beasts rushing (and fleeting) towards their lines.

I tend to disagree with you. An army needs lascannons/AP 2 and Oblits are the easiest was to get it. You need Lascannons for so many things like C'Tann, Monoliths, Land Raiders, Terminators, TMC with a 2+ save, etc.

The only other options are taking strength 8 weapons, Land Raiders, expensive Predators or huge CSM squads that can only sit there while one guy fires his Lascannon.

The other options are small Chosen squads, but they are competing with your Possessed and Terminator squads for an elite slot.

Blackmoor: You're an advocate of Rhino Based 2x SW Sqads with icon then? I was thinking maybe daemons aren't as pants as everyone makes out.

People rag on Possessed, but I tend to disagree. Consider what you get, for an additional 11 points per model you get +1 attack, +5 Invulnerable Save, and a random ability. Of those random abilities only one is crap (Scout) essentially you have a 33% chance for better movement, 33% for better staying power, all of said abilities help them in their assault role. The unit tends to price better then power armored chosen because you don't have to kit out the unit with a bunch of upgrades. The best use I have seen them in is in an Assault Mech list mounted in a Land Raider.

Only problem is that for 4pts more you get a terminator with a gauranteed power weapon and more shootyiness. If they would have gave them a gauranteed rending, or power weapon then they could justify the point cost.

keezus wrote:I just picked up the new Chaos dex after much debate.

I sure won't be packing as much dakka.

Good for you to stick with Chaos!

Bad for you to have picked the uber-cheese Iron Warriors as your basic army... Iron Warriors were broken and needed a massive nerf.

Here's how I see your list:

HQ
Converted lord on a bike with combi-melta and servo-arm Power Fist.

Foot tech-Sorceror or convert to Techno-Daemon Prince or Greater Techno-Daemon

Elite
1x Dreads (yet to be built!)
5x Terminators
1x 6 Las 2 plas team

Troops
2x 10 Las Plas teams.
2x Rhinos with extra armor
1x Noise Marine w/ Blastmaster converted from Lascannon

Heavy
2x 3 Obliterators - very good, not stupid broken
1x8 Havoc teams with 4x HB w/ fist aspiring champions

Options
1x Vindicator
1x Predator (yet to be built!)
1x8 Havoc teams with 4x HB w/ fist aspiring champions

to-sell / Trade
1x Dreads (yet to be built!)
1x Basilisk (can convert into Vindi

Obliterators are fine. They were way too good before, especially in Iron Warriors.

Chaos marines are totally worth their 15 pts. They are SM Veterans without ATSKNF. You should look at trading the Dread for more!

Chaos Lords - are also fine, but consider converting the Techmarine into a Techno-Daemon Prince. He'll need much bulking and equips, but would be very cool.

Basilisk - deserved to go away!

I did say that the Terminator is the most effective Elites choice availible. My only point was that you can get much use out of Possessed and in certain builds, they are certainly useful. I would rank the elites in order of effectiveness as: Terminators, Possessed, Power Armored Chosen, Dreadnoughts. I believe Possessed out do Chosen because chosen are essentially CSM that already pay for the infiltrating ability (which I find useless because you don't get it every mission, it can be easiliy block by a decent player, and provides very little battlefield effectiveness when I use it) and you have to sink a ton of points into them to increase their effectiveness in thier upgrade. They have their uses and I can see a list based around them, but I would put the possessed above them for the benefits that just their stat-line give you.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I just picked up the new Chaos dex after much debate.
Bad for you to have picked the uber-cheese Iron Warriors as your basic army... Iron Warriors were broken and needed a massive nerf.

Haha. I used to play in kind of a competitive environment. When I was first going to Chaos I was going to build an Emperor's Kid's army. This turned out to be too time consuming, because I try to convert and paint to a high standard. Painting Emperor's Kids was too time consuming as I was averaging 6-7 hours per model! I was sad to give it up, because the few test models I did were awesome looking, but I'd never be done at that rate. So, all those EC forgeword bits went into the bitz box, and I traded away all my EC shoulderpads and sonic weapons. So I decided to turn my huge glut of CSM sprues into IW. I figured... these guys are easy to paint. I might be done before the end of the edition! (I did keep my boxes of daemonettes though!)

When I first made the army, it only had the Vindicator and the havocs as HS, with no obliterators - mostly because I LOATHE the models. It was going to be an all infantry army... with lots of renegade adeptus mechanicus flavoured conversions. (Half my squad leaders are techmarine models... In fact, I have copies of all the 2nd to 4th edition techmarines, including the BA HG version and the command squad verision - and one havoc squad is made of gun servitors). I really wanted to convert that vindicator out of old bitz and the new rhino - so that was going to be my gameplan. Unfortunately my glacial painting speed meant I needed some fast point make-ups to play in an event where I'd be facing godzilla and flying circus lists, so I heavily converted a bunch of obliterators out of mega-armored orks and built (and quickly drybrushed) a basilisk to make up points... My oblits are only half painted!

I'm not too sad to see the IW become depowered, though I'm a bit taken aback by how the new codex is definitely less flexible. All in all, while I like having a killer list, I like to have a cool looking army too... so I think I'll just keep working on conversions for now. My "before there were plastic chaos terminator", terminator conversions are sitting on my workbench waiting for greenstuff.

with no obliterators - mostly because I LOATHE the models.

Convert up some spawn. They look good and size wise thier the same scale and easy to convert because they are all plastic. You get tons of extra bits BTW fromt he spawn sprue.

As my Chaos Termies continue to suck, I opted to convert them all to Oblits as I too hate the model.

I've encountered similiar problems with Terminators and their level of suck. I've decided the shelf them for a while in favor of more power armor guys. Plague Marines and Berzerkers should punch more face than the Terminators did.

Stelek / gojira: Why do chaos terminators suck? I'm aware my loadout of twin-bolter and PW boys isn't the best, and that combi-meltas would probably be better, but they pour out decent dakka and are pretty tough. You can DS them without scattering near an icon. Is it the cost that makes them underperform?