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I may be interested in joining an SCA club sometime. It probably won't give me a solid workout and from the looks of videos it looks more like paintball (i.e. short bursts of exertion, then long amounts of light physical activity) in terms of physical exertion, but it might be fun. Has anyone ever tried it? I have some questions:

1. I haven't looked too deeply into the rules but after seeing about a dozen youtube videos it seems like athletic skill isn't prized as much. Obviously, we should be honest and say it's likely because skinny and fat nerds play it, but aside from the fact that duels are slow and battles just show one charge after which things slow down, is there any athleticism at all? The videos just showed one charge, instead of lots of forced marching so there might be more to it. I happen to enjoy exerting myself and I can do it in intramurals but unless you were in sports in high school, joining in college teams is pretty much impossible. Therefore, physical contact is pretty low unless I find some intramural wrestling.

It looks like, unlike LARPing, you use more weighted swords. However, it looks like most people just swing their swords like bats which means you can easily continue to do it without much physical effort but won't do much damage if the swords were real. Do the combat rules take this into account? From the youtube videos it seems like the answer is no.

2. Why the hell isn't wrestling being shown? At my old fencing school we had Medieval/Japanese combat classes and the guys there knew their stuff, but even then we were, at certain times, allowed to do anything we wanted to ensure we got the kill. I took aikido and have done some wrestling with buddies who were in school teams who taught me some things, so I would especially enjoy being able to throw my weight around. I don't lift for nothing. Anyway, it saddens me to see some guys in the videos who look like they're too terrified to loosen their grip on their swords. Even after they get up close, you're not supposed to just hold onto the hilt. You let go, grab onto the other guy, and either remove his sword, try to lock/break his arm, or trip or kick him behind his knees so he goes down. Why the hell isn't this allowed?

3. Last, and I know I'm probably asking too much, but is there much military training involved? I could imagine how much training would be required to teach a bunch of guys to fight in rows and columns, correctly thrust and retrieve a spear correctly, and fight in coordination. It looks like none of these are taught from the videos, but I hope I'm wrong.

Anyway, I hope someone can chime in if they've ever tried this. I could go into an SCA forum first, but I'm thinking their heavily biased opinion really wouldn't help. I'd appreciate dispelling or confirming some myths, but I hope I can gain something out of this. Wrestling's pretty awesome and I'll continue to look for an intramural american football team that does the full-padding thing without flags, but maybe I can do this instead.

stonefox wrote:Anyway, it saddens me to see some guys in the videos who look like they're too terrified to loosen their grip on their swords. Even after they get up close, you're not supposed to just hold onto the hilt. You let go, grab onto the other guy, and either remove his sword, try to lock/break his arm, or trip or kick him behind his knees so he goes down. Why the hell isn't this allowed?

Because they did not have Aikido or Jujitsu in Europe at that time would be my guess. I don't know a lot but I know they try to be fairly strict about doing what would have been done, not what we would do today.

It sounds like you are more interested in wrestling with other guys, if so, you don't need SCA for that.

You know where you can go for some man-wrestling, stonefox.

SCA is more than just fighting with padded maces. LOTS more.

The fighting adheres to certain rules, apparently some of which are unspoken, and from what I hear there are enough tough, in-shape guys around to really keep you in line. They don't want people getting hurt.

There's a HUGE social aspect to it, and you have ranks and such that apply, very seriously, within the club. I have a friend who was in the SCA for a time, and he really enjoyed it as he brews beer and focused on that aspect. I was, um, "invited" by a woman I worked with, but declined (especially after seeing some of the pictures); it seemed too much for me, too involved, too dissociated from real life.

If you're really interested, find a local chapter/guild/whatever it's called and ask them about it. Chances are they'll be more than eager to explain things to you. And never, ever wear a light blue feather in your cap (unless you're into that sort of thing).

Good luck!

For anyone else who had to google it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Creative_Anachronism

Ahtman wrote:Because they did not have Aikido or Jujitsu in Europe at that time would be my guess. I don't know a lot but I know they try to be fairly strict about doing what would have been done, not what we would do today.

It sounds like you are more interested in wrestling with other guys, if so, you don't need SCA for that.

Well yeah, but I've seen manuals of old medieval wrestling, which I assume must have been passed down from greco-roman wrestling. My query was supposed to be why this isn't allowed in duels, since I could understand why it's useless in the field. I suppose much of my experience is because of the freedom we were given in spars and the fact that I would often join my classmates for after-class rough housing which quickly turn into brawls.

You know where you can go for some man-wrestling, stonefox.

Well yeah, I already enjoy manly man-wrestling.

SCA is more than just fighting with padded maces. LOTS more.

The fighting adheres to certain rules, apparently some of which are unspoken, and from what I hear there are enough tough, in-shape guys around to really keep you in line. They don't want people getting hurt.

Yeah, I guess I should've made clear that I couldn't understand why they don't allow wrestling in duels. And I know you don't use padded weapons. That's sissy LARP stuff. However, like I've said the videos may be inaccurate but I have been around swordfighting for a couple of years and the way their weight-and-weapon is being thrown just doesn't convince me that it would do much harm. Maybe throwing your weight behind the weapon may not be a big thing in the SCA for safety reasons in large battles, but I still raise my eyebrow when I don't see it in duels.

For reference, this is what I saw for duels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7mWIK6Eizw&feature=related , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaIEK0H1QnM&feature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pU_yRLGFFE&feature=related . This is the same slowed sort of thing I remember doing with lightsabers when I was 10. At least with lightsabers you have an excuse for not throwing your weight around. Also not enough stabbing. :( But yeah, I guess if this is what it's about that answers my question about it. I'd like to have more weight being thrown into strikes.

For reference as to what I'm used to in dueling, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44xUxqG_L3s&feature=related and his other videos. Yep, my friends and I used to use the wooden swords in full force after class (still wondering why we all have intact eyes) and we did wear fencing-like gear to spar with the bamboo swords during class. It's a very fine distinction but just with the sound of the wood you can tell there's more force being pushed with each strike.

I could be mistaken. I've been taught some broadside fighting which is more-or-less the same as a katana, so perhaps swinging the way they do may produce the most force for a one-handed weapon even though it looks horribly fake like my old lightsaber shenanigans. I remember saber and epee fighters still throwing weight behind their cuts, however.

it seemed too much for me, too involved, too dissociated from real life.

Yeah, it may not be LARPing with mouth-breathers who are too wimpy to get hurt, but I'm sure that like all nerdy activities there will be some who are way too into it. I recall historical re-enactors are on the lowest rung of the nerd ladder, second only to furries.

edit: Damn, guess I spoke too soon. Unlike the kiddy slapping in the previous videos, SCA can have some awesomely aggressive fighting too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5JaQq2Dakg&feature=related

I’ve known a bunch of SCA people over the years. The “snap” is the preferred method of striking to the outside from your sword-arm side, maximizing angular momentum and speed. It’s not entirely realistic, as it would most likely break an actual metal sword, but it puts serious dents in 10 gauge steel, so it’s definitely real hitting. Most of the fighters I’ve known have been big dudes, who clearly made use of their muscle and size and considered it a manly and physically demanding nerd activity.

Here’s a really detailed manual on fighting techniques:
http://www.drachenwald.sca.org/files/marshal/fighting_resources/DukePaulManual.pdf
http://www.drachenwald.sca.org/files/marshal/fighting_resources/appendix_e.doc

Here’s a pretty neat article from another guy, much shorter and more casual, discussing basic techniques, recommended drills, etc.:
http://ursula.sca.org.au/articles/berfight.html

This is an Interesting and informative page on someone’s armor-making techniques (and sword, at the end):
http://www.cs.usu.edu/~watson/bartholomew/barmor.htm

We are starting to stray from the important issue of man-wrestling. If you want cake you must discuss this.

Whoah, thanks for the links Mann. Should be useful. And yeah, hitting the flat side of a blade against something pretty much means you're dead.

I did look into sca.org and they have all sorts of blah-blah rules about not tripping, not using your shield to ram or strike the other guy (WTF?), and not using a fist. It would seem that if you were fully armored you should be able to take a gauntlet to the face, but I digress.

Ahtman, I love man-wrestling. It's off-topic to this off-topic post, but I do have a serious question about it: how "gay" do americans feel about it? I know to some of my friends they think that too sweaty guys grappling each other is gay, and I suppose it could look like that, but between my family and other friends it's just like rams or deer charging each other and locking horns.

Of course it's off topic. If we aren't talking about the various species of Bluebirds in North America in 12 more posts we are doing it wrong.

Really I was just making a reference to Portal but since you got all serious I guess I can try to field an answer. Context generally is the deciding factor. More often than not jokes are made, but most males roughhouse at some point. Competition is usually ok. Professional Wrestling is always gay.

The SCA definitely has some substantial safety restrictions and limitations. From my reading, these seem to vary from region to region. I think at least one of those tactical manuals I linked to gave techniques for pushing and hooking your opponent’s shield with your own, which is a pretty darn physical maneuver. Even with the restrictions, to the best of my knowledge it’s the leader in “real men’s” medieval fighting, among well known/international organizations. There are, of course, lots of actual martial arts groups out there, and a few small organizations which do live steel. http://www.chronique.com/Library/Fighting/EMA_rules.html is an informative link. You can also get some interesting videos by searching for Live Steel Combat on Google or YouTube.

Wrestling is not seriously associated with homosexuality in the US, but it’s a common joke if you do want to mess with a wrestler. Homophobia is common enough that it’s a pretty obvious joke.

Oh, BTW, there is a LARP which allows wrestling, as well as other enthusiastic physical maneuvers such as kicking shields:

http://www.dagorhir.com/dagorhir/Rules.htm

I’ve never played it, but I’ve known a couple of people who did, who had some crazy stories.

Yeah I had a portal sig at some point too, Ahtman. I like cake. Also, the assman was my favorite wrestler. He was so flamboyantly awesome. And Bautista used to be my uncle 'til my aunt divorced him back in the late '90s.

Thanks for the links again Mann. Looks pretty fun. I don't really care about the rules when massed combat is involved since it's just minutae at that point (you can't really do much grappling and you're charging at the other guy's shields anyway), but it did bug me regarding duels.

Played this stuff in the early 80's with about 12 mates. All was good with the foam swords, until 1 lunatic decides to build a 'Warhammer' out of Balsa wood. Anyway, it was fullt embellished and done up to look real. It sort of was....the first time a mate got hit with it, it broke his arm!! Anyway, enthusiasm for that sort of thing went out the window after that.



So we started wrestling each other.....

I was involved with the SCA while I was in college. There is much more to it than just swordfighting, but that seems to be what you're interested in, and it was one of my big interests with it. They have two types of fighting, light and heavy. I dont know much about the light fighting because I didnt do it, but it appeared to resemble fencing and was very fast. It also reenacts a much later period than the heavy. Heavy fighting is what I did. Those links will probably tell you more than I can about the specifics, so I'll tell you about the experience of it. First off, I am in decent shape, though I could be better, and I am about 5 to 10 pounds overweight for my height. For me it was one hell of a workout. If you run or do other aerobic exercise daily or every other day, then it may not be very taxing, but that is highly dependent on your opponent. Some guys I fought tended to have less movement and weren't as fatiguing to fight. One man who I went up against a few times was a polearm fighter, and this man could walk backwards faster than I could run forwards, in full chainmail incidentally. The entire time he'd be luring you to block with your shield and he'd use his backward motion to help flip the stick up over the shield and nail you. This guy wore me out every time

We had one guy who was into the light fighting and one day we talked him into doing heavy. Well, he put on the loaner helmet, sir rings-a-lot ( because the noise it makes inside your head when you get hit) and proceded to tear everyone up. He was just a natural athlete, and I havent seen many people who have that kind of fluidity and strength in movement. So if you happen to be involved in a lot of sport or just have natural ability it may be a breeze to you.

When I went to my first meeting I immediately felt included and found I had many things in common with them. This is unusual for me, and it is something I havent encountered to that level ever again, even in miniatures. That alone made it worthwhile for me. I'm sure it varies depending on the local groups, but I went to some events where there were people from several areas, and almost all of them were like that. There were a few people I really intensely disliked, but they were a definite minority.

There is nothing like dinner at one of their events. I dont think Ive ever eaten as much in my life, and the food was different from anything I have on a normal basis. To sum it up one of their events is not to be missed. A LOT of fun all around. One of the folks there told me the SCA also was an acronym for the Society of Consenting Adults. Take that as you will.

The SCA is historical, at least in theory, so any sort of fantasy element is discouraged, though most of the people in the group were in to some kind of sci-fi/fantasy gaming or fan activity, so there is a lot of overlap. For a while, we also had a AD&D game going, for instance. If you're not sure what kind of reenactment appeals to you, the SCA is good, because it is so broad. Their time period covers about a thousand years, and I have heard occasionally people cheat a bit and the occasional Roman or classical Greek shows up. If youre interested in more narrow and ridgidly accurate reenactment you may look for other groups. I know there is another group that does the time period right around 1066, and they fight with real steel. Oddly enough no one that I knew of was into miniatures, other than for roleplaying.

There are some definite downsides. The reason I'm no longer doing it is number one on the list....money and time. If you really want to get in to this accept the fact that to get the most out of it you're going to have to put a good deal of money, and enormous amount of time, or possibly both. If you love it enough for it to become the major hobby in your life, that is fine. It probably won't work if you have a partner who dislikes it. Most of the people I knew were actually husbands and wives into it together, often with their children.

Another downside is that there are a lot of rules to the combats that would probably irritate you if you're the type of person who wants to take a certain amount of risk to have fun. For instance, the arrows now have to have, instead of flights, a polymer tube around the shaft that protects against the remote possibility of that arrow bouncing back off the ground or something and popping someone in the eye. The result is that arrows are pretty pointless ( no pun intended) and its really there for people who are just really into archery. No matter how padded, you can't have any sort of flail or chucks. Also, no quarterstaves or using a weapon like a quarterstaff, in other words, you cant have a staff held with both ands and swing with one hand while using the other as a fulcrum. This last one is actually a good rule, as I have been told that a reasonably strong man can cave in a 16 gauge steel helmet with a staff used that way. Probably so, because you're essentially creating a lever to multiply the force you can apply. You can make thrusting weapons, though they look a lot like giant q-tips.

There are politics apparently, though I never got high up enough in it for it to be a problem. I hear it can get nasty though, and feelings get hurt. Personally I only met one guy who was a real , so thats not so bad.

I joined up with an SCA group for a little while when i was in college. It was fairly furn, but I didn't have the money at the time to buy my own armor and what not. There is a lot more to it than beinga "stick jocky" and fighting. They do a lot of song and danace type stuff as well as arts can crafts from the era. All in all it can be a lot of fun if that's your thing. I personaly found the people to be very friendly but a bit too wierd for my tastes so I bailed out on it eventualy. You're milage may very.

I never got into heavy fighting, but I did try the light (fencing, basically). I did sport fencing as a teenager, but light SCA fighting was a lot of fun because of the different styles/weapons you could wield.

You can fight single rapier, but can also use a variety of implements in your off hand for parrying (and in some cases, attack)- you can go case (pair) of rapiers, rapier & dagger, buckler, cane, cloak, etc. They even have generic "soft parrying implement" and "rigid parrying implement". A popular choice for swashbuckling types I understand is rapier & drinking mug.

The person who taught be told me that it was generally considered unsporting to fight with an off-hand implement against someone just using a single rapier; apparantly an olympic fencer used to fight at one of the Boston-area chapters, and he would wield a handkerchief in his left hand so it technically counted as a "soft parrying implement", and it wouldn't be unsporting for other people to wield something more useful in their off hand to compete with him.

I'm not sure where you live Stonefox, but there are some guys from Illinois who sell foam fighting weapons at Gen Con every year. Their fighting style is much more full contact, bash each other till uncle is cried. If you're wearing armor a location can take two hits, otherwise one, and I mean solid shots. It's a lot like sparring. When you go down, get a drink of water, then start again. 15 minutes of this action had me dripping sweat and staggering.

the website is www.edhellen.com , and they have links to other fighting groups as well. Have fun!

Crap, forgot about this thread, but thanks a lot guys! Really, your words have not gone to waste. I read it all.

akira - So we started wrestling each other..... Yeah I figure that's what's gonna happen with me.

Grignard - I work out for athleticism and I consider it a waste of a day if I don't push my limits. Polearm stuff: Yep, polearms are awesome. Society of Consenting Adults: Haha, I'm still in college so if these girls are cute and can be lured by a couple of drinks, maybe. Money and time: Yeah, that's what I fear. However, if I can get a set of armor and a sword, I should be able to go whenever I feel like it right? That's pretty much how I treat paintball (high upstart, then go whenever) so I was hoping it was similar to this. Certain amount of risk to have fun: Yeah, as I said in the OP that's kinda what I like about martial arts sparring. I was always trained to use a polearm in the manner you described, which is disappointing to me. No wonder the guys in videos didn't hold it that way. I guess this applies to the giant q-tips too? I never saw anyone in videos place the end of the pole on the ground while receiving a charge.strong man can cave in a 16 gauge steel helmet with a staff used that way Seeing the way our most senior student in aikido, who weighed 95 lbs at most, use the staff, I can believe this.There are politics apparently Yeah, in any geeky activity there is always drama. I'm used to it.

Phoenix: is a lot more to it than beinga "stick jocky" and fighting. They do a lot of song and danace type stuff as well as arts can crafts from the era Yeah well the fighting's the only thing that really interests me. I may glean some outdated culture from it, but seeing how I'm not white (how prevalent were Pacific Islanders in Europe during this time? ) it's not really in my interests. too wierd for my tastes I don't know if you're familiar with somethingawful.com but they poke fun at all the worst geeks of the internet, from furries to really fat guys wearing armor. So yeah I can imagine this.

Mann - Hahaha. Yeah fencing's pretty fun. We were taught a little (a lesson or three) rapier+dagger.

Krak - Northern VA. In my mom's basement smelling really bad and eating cheetos. That's pretty cool. I'm used to using shinai, both the "soft" one that goes clack-clack when you hit and the "hard" one that we used for aikido and is one-piece covered in leather. I think that's similar enough. Pretty cool otherwise.

They're not kidding about the "Society of Consenting Adults". A friend of mine who was active in the SCA for a while said that if you can't get laid there, you should just hang up your hat and become chaste. Just be really, really careful; the pretty ones are often extra (x8) crazy.

And seriously, no light blue feathers.

Yeah but it's one of those "the odds are good but the goods are odd" kind of things.

ok, NFC about theblue feather, I presume it's a green light for leather clad tail-gunners?

It seems that anywhere in the press or popular literature about the SCA, it portrays everyone there as being some lame-ass nerd who couldn't get laid in a whore house with a full wallet. The "gathering of 10,000 virgins" is a comment I have seen quite a bit regarding Penzig. But from the people who have been, the chicks ar like as not to drag YOU off, swampfrog is a way of life, and the contact is for keeps.

You could always just join that JEDI school...

Hehehe.

Swampfrog? I (very reluctantly) Googled it, and it seems to be a geocaching term. That's what you mean, right? Please please please say I'm right...

malfred wrote:You could always just join that JEDI school...

Hehehe.

Sorry Jedi is only recognized as an official religion in the UK.

I also have no idea what swampfrog means. That isn't going to stop me from drawing pictures of what I think it means on the side of Slaanesh rhinos though.

I forgot about the official JEDI religion bit.

But there was as a school in New York or something where
people costumed up and LARPed as Jedi in a dance studio
where it looked like a mix of dueling, SCA, and roleplay.

Malfred, I been a lot of far-out places. But that's a bit much for me.

As far as swampfrog, me boyos, I have never actually BEEN into ti, but from wha I was told it is a drink, made in pitchers, liqour based, strong as an ox, drinks like fruit juice, and is made with a cyalume stick to give it the green glow and some dry ice for visual effect as well. Eerie green glow, smokey liquid that is cold in temerature; swamp frog came up as a name. Don't know the recipie.

Perverts. I respect that.

EDIT: Iorek, I got your google-fu covered right here. knowing a bit more about what you were looking for would have helped you out. Check this out, if you got the stomach:

http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Swamp-Frog/Detail.aspx

You know, this sounds really good! Maybe we should throw a Dakka house party. Nah, maybe not. One good thing abou8t being married, I don't have to rely on stuff like this for game, I just need to get the kids to sleep.

Don't show lorek date juice, or else he will ply his trade
on myself.

Incoming jedi school

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/clips/ny-jedi-school-trains-lightsaber-enthusiasts-to-be-bigger-geeks-318539.php

Stonefox-Yeah but it's one of those "the odds are good but the goods are odd" kind of things.

Took me about 5 seconds, then I laughed my off. Gold. Just gold.