Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What with the changes to transports, as well as vehicles in general, I have been pondering a quasi 4th-5th edition list. Granted, I am hesitant about the small number of troops, but went with vehicles solely for the Ordinace vs. hordes, as well as the upcoming cover rules for vehicles in 5th. I'm curious if the reaction to the list will be similar to my first inclination (ie. too few troops, too many "inneficient" heavy's). Also, props to Longshot for the inspiration.

HQ
(1) Lash Prince - 155
Mark of Slanesh, wings, Lash of Submission

Elites
(3) Terminators - 145
1 Reaper Autocannon, 2 combi-weapons, 2 power fists
(1) Land Raider Transport - 240
dozer blade, extra armor

Troops
(10) Plague Marines - 295
plasma gun, melta gun, champion w/ power fist
(1) Rhino Transport - 60
dozer blade, demonic possession

(10) Plague Marines - 295
plasma gun, melta gun, champion w/ power fist
(1) Rhino Transport - 60
dozer blade, demonic possession

(10) Noise Marines - 300
sonic blasters, champion w/ doom siren, power fist

Heavy
(2) Obliterators - 150

(1) Vindicator - 145
demonic possession

(1) Defiler - 150



The Land Raider will carry the noise marines. That, along with the 2 noise marine laden rhino's, will provide quick response. The defiler will park behind some cover and blast away, and the vindicator will move with the troops in support of the assault. The 3 termi's are there just to get the LR as a transport, its a shame because they really serve no purpose except to die and give up KP's, but i just really wanted a LR and didn't want to spend a Heavy slot for it. So, as stated above, should I drop the elites and some heavy's for a couple more squads of mechanized plague marines? Will massed plague marines be enough to handle 5th edition Orcs?

awww, c'mon, no input? Am I just supposed to forgoe all the fun fluff and take 4 squads of plague marines?

does a landraider really need extra armor-cant it still move with one of its rules, maybe too many points for how little it will help.

splitting plasma/melta in squads isnt that great, go w/ all melta or all plasma
how much does the possession help, its alot of points
drop the noise marines for another plague marine squad
shave some points off and increase the terminator squad-it may as well be useful if its there and land raiders are looking pretty good although i would still limit the upgrades

i would either go with 2 vindis or 2 defilers, the vindi's are tougher and better damage, but defiler got range and possible assault elements

I'd suggest giving the land raider daemonic posession... the more it can shoot, the better. As for the dozer blade... well, whatever floats your boat.

Ugh.

Defilers are crap in every edition until they get armor 13.

Your termie units will cost you alot of points, that transport is harder to kill but isn't invulnerable by any means. If both die, that's double points lost--but taken together, are they worth 'double'? I don't think so.

Rhinos are just free points. Why give them up? Handicapping yourself for no reason, why do it? I didn't suggest any in that template of mine for a reason, ya know.

Vindicator is ok, but given you need to move forward to use it and that it's still very vulnerable on the sides, it's just asking for trouble.

The troops seem solid enough to me.

For the points, the oblits are better than the defiler or the vindicator in my opinion.

Plasma cannons will hit, and what's overheating? Just keep that in mind.

But doesn't the new cover saves in 5th make the Defiler at least viable. Its such a wicked model, i'm almost tempted to forgoe pure cheese just cause I like the look of it so much...

Dunno what pure cheese is. There is no cheese in 40K.

If you run the numbers, all the cover saves do for a defiler is make it more survivable against single shots with high strength (if the other army is relying upon such for tank killing). On the other hand, lots of shots still take the defiler out. More viable? I guess, but with the model being so big and most tournaments unable to run more than 5-6 pieces of terrain per board...well I just see the defiler as one big target since you can pretty much shoot a toe and kill it. Lame, but that's the way it is.

I usually try to bring both types of fire (single high strength and multiple lower strength) in my armies, to punk AV10-12 vehicles quickly once the AV13 tanks are dealt with. Some armies can have quite a horde to deal with, after all--and all of those shots work equally well against MC lists. Just my view that tactically the defiler is unfit for combat until it's AV13. Just like dreads, rhinos not being AV12 to the front, vind/preds not being AV12 to the side, and LR not being AV11 in the rear. Simple tweaks that would make said vehicles much more fit for combat, but...I'm crazy, and who cares about game balance driving sales when the modus operandi is game fuckups driving sales? Sorry, bit a tear there.

Ok, well, aside from the fact that the defiler isn't a powergamers choice for a heavy, it is one of the coolest and most unique models in the game, and with 5th edition gets 'some' love, albeit fractional. With the help of Longshot and Mauleed, I have tweeked the list a bit:

HQ
Lash Sorceror -145
wings, mos, lash of submission

Lash Sorceror -145
wings, mos, lash of submission

Troops
10 Noise Marines -295
9 sonic blasters, champion w/ p.fist, doom siren

7 Plague Marines -226
2 meltaguns, champion w/ p.fist

7 Plague Marines -226
2 meltaguns, champion w/ p.fist

7 Plague Marines -191
2 plasmaguns

7 Plague Marines -191
2 plasmaguns

7 Plague Marines -191
2 plasmaguns

Heavy
Land Raider -240
demonic possession

Defiler -150


Lash Princes changed to Sorcerers, to provide some survivablity by hopping from squad to squad and screening. Maxxed out Troops section for scoring units, and stuck some more melta in for anti-armor. What Mauleed suggested, and what i'm really curious about, is the option of dropping one of my Plague Marine squads, and taking a couple of minimum (5 demons per unit) batches of lesser demons for supplemental fearless scoring units. It is a really tempting idea, but I do so love the Plague Marines, and am loathe to drop these super survivable troops for 2-3 more squads of much less survivable troops.

The same thing goes for buying noisemarines over plaguemarines. I see no reason for that. Noisemarines are just flat out inferior.

I would:
1) Make the sorcerers into princes.
2) Make the noise marines another squad of plaguemarines
3) Use those points to swap the defiler for a landraider.
4) consider making any unit with a fist into 10+ and your non-fist squads 6 man.

If you're lead by a lash prince, who cares if you're using sacred nurgle numbers Feh.

I'm not sure I can swing another Land Raider with the current makeup. Do you think dropping the 3 plasma gun squads down to minimum of 5 men/squad and bumping the melta/fist squads up to 10 would fly. Change the Defiler to Obliterators (although I can't see why everyone loves obliterators so much, 75pts for a heavy weapon on a T4 model seems just as fragile/wasteful as a big ole pie template on an av12 defiler)

Noise marines swapped to a 7 man squad of plaguemarines with 2 plasmas is -> 104 pts + 150 from the defiler leaves you plenty for the land raider.

Then drop the plasma squads all down to 6, which gets you 4 marines, to add 3 to one fist squad and then one to sacrifice to get you the two daemon princes.

If it weren't for the necessity of some long range S9 guns, and the toughness of AV14, I am not sure I would take the landraiders, but --

For the cost of two possessed landraiders you only get around 7 obliterators. I think, in 5e, the 2 landraiders will be a lot more durable, but it's 4 twinlinked Bs3 lascannons vs. 7 non-twinlinked lascannons that can also be plasmacannons.

Plaguemarines, as awesome as they will be, are going to have a rough time making the right amount of antitank. It's the big challenge to the list. Meh.

The reason I havn't taken the Noise Marines out is that they are a solid anti-horde unit, and furthermore I already have all the models for them, painted up and everything, so it would save me a buck by using them. Their fragility can be mitigated with the Land Raider, as well as priority from the lash's.

The thing is, I have only a couple games experience using the Plague Marines, and still don't have a good feel for how durable they will be in various squad sizes. If i knew i could count on them, I woulnd't hesitate to stick all the shooty plasma gun squads as 5 man. So is 6 really that much more survivable than 5? If I try to avoid CC with them, along with the lash, would a 5 man PM squad work?

In regards to the Land Raiders, while they are probably the best choice, the cost is so prohibitive that i find myself gimped in other areas if I try to force two of them in. I've got a real hankerin to try and stick two 5 unit lesser demon squads in as well for drop off scoring units, and if I minimize the PM plasma gun squads down to 5, i think something can be worked out.

Finding the balance between enough anti-horde (which I expect to be a serious issue in 5th, as well as enough anti-tank to stop other LR's/Monoliths) is the biggest headache yet....

Seems like another list made up by the same guys on dakka with lots of min/maxing, no real purpose or strength in the list.

It's not like you can be mobile in a Chaos army, but I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what all the plasmaguns do. Is it supposed to scare anybody?

Looks like you are so worried about MC lists you're ignoring all the other lists that will pwn face on this army type.

Let me try and put another spin on this.

You are lined up against a gunline army. Be it loyalist marines, IG, Tau, or Eldar.

They can all outrange you, this is a given. Can you really rely on Land Raiders in a tournament setting when there will be lance weapons or meltaweapon bombers coming your way? There will always be armies that can put 5-8 S9 (or better) shots into your 1 tank, and kill it. I certainly don't think you can depend on tanks for all your anti-tank fire, that isn't going to change in 5th. You need to have some kind of supplemental threat.

IG have autocannons.
Marines have Land Speeders and Meltabikers.
Tau have missile pods.
Eldar have scatter lasers.

You have...none of this. Getting it is very difficult in a Chaos list, but if you choose dreads/defilers/vindis/preds they'll get punked by the above armies pretty easily.

If you choose LR, it's a coin flip unit. Some people will have a hard time with it. I think more often than not, whether your LR survives will depend entirely on a cover save being made.

When you run into Mech lists, how are you going to handle them when they shoot you from 36" plus? Why would they "lose" shooting if you can't threaten them? I mean, you do realize against a tri-falcon (or really, ANY force with 3 heavy tanks) you'll be at a disadvantage since they can hide from your one cannon and pummel your troops choices?

Imagine 3 Leman Russes just sitting there, with 6 Lascannons going into your Land Raider every turn. The autocannons will silence your defiler. You can't claim cover then say they'll get into close combat easier, they don't have MTC so they'll bog down in it and once they fail their 5+ forest save they die to mass S6/7 shots or a handful of S8+ shots.

What do you do then with your slow army? It's not like you can fight back, or even make it to his side of the board. Toss in annoying tactics like say a Vyper or Piranha wall to prevent you from moving forward for a turn...and yeah, it's gonna suck to be you from turn 1 until you concede.

Marine vehicles aren't any good unless they are cheap, fast, or immune to being shaken without losing a point of BS...or immune to the lance rule.

Chaos gets none of that. Why pretend like these problems do not exist, and you can just min/max your way using the same old 6 man squads with 2 special weapons? It doesn't work on good players, give it up already. This list won't either.

So what are you saying Stelek, that no chaos army is going to be competitive, or just the list i've thrown up? I'm not going for Ultra-tourney competitive, just something that is well rounded enough that I can commit to it for the majority of my games.

It sounds to me that you have a distaste for any of the chaos vehicles, and I know you are a big proponent of Oblits. Do you suggest dropping all the Land Raiders for a couple Oblit squads?

He's full of crap. It's not like plaguemarines are impotent at 24" or anything.

First turn they all run 6+1d6, second turn they unload on anything almost anywhere on the board. Plasmaguns provide a 24" radius threat after that (or 18" mobile threat). That's going to be very limited to skimmers that can't move 12" and fire all their guns anymore.

I do agree about one landraider. Two or three is the only way to make them worthwhile. No IG player is going to have enough lascannons to kill two landraiders before the plaguemarines gank them.

Being immune to glancing kills makes landraiders much, much tougher in 5e (half of all lascannon shots are now unable to kill a raider...and the penetrating shots are much less likely to kill).

What I was suggesting regarding plaguemarines is a mix of big and small squads. 2 x 10+ with a fist, and 4 x 6 with plasmaguns. Then two lash or warptime daemon princes to back them up. I think that's a fine army, plaguemarine wise, and awfully close to some Stelek has proposed

Longshot: I keep getting mixed signals for/against the Lashprinces vs. Lashsorcerors........either I take the princes, and with better stats they are potentially worthwhile in CC, but vulnerable to shooting, or I take the sorcerors, who can hide in the squads for safety, but are good for little else than lashing.....

Woohoo I got called full of crap by Longshot! Man I'm coming up in the world...

Plaguemarines that need to move to objectives and only have 2 plasmashots at 24" are pretty damn impotent in my book. If you think firing bolters at 24" is "potent" what game is it you are playing? It's like firing S3 bows at long range on BS3 models...yeah, something might happen. Wooh, I killed a couple kroot. Put me down for 'effective'.

I think Chaos can be viable, but you've got to go overboard on anything you do.

You can't run Chaos like Smurfs. Jervis nerfed the gak out of that concept entirely. You want big squads so the extra points you *MUST* pay just getting in the door makes them worthwhile.

Why are you paying for Fearless, FNP, and T5 on Plague Marine units when you are only bringing 7 at a time?
Why are you boosting the cost of said units by taking plasmaguns in every single one instead of taking a champion with a fist?

Do you really believe defilers will get into close combat?

Guard might not have a easy way to slow your army down (stopping the run) but Smurfs, Tau, and Eldar sure as hell do. Guard have more guns than the other armies (in general) so it's a trade.

I know silly things like suicide plasma/demo squads will not only make short work of quite a few of your squads, and since you *have* to get rid of them that means an assault backwards, your LR wasting shots at them, and/or you rapid firing back and not moving. All of which is bad news.

You want to play it safe, take the wussy sorcerors. Dump alot of points into them. Then...die to a fist, or just die to general punches in the face. Demon Princes die, but before they die they can absorb a tremendous amount of firepower AND they are a serious threat to virtually every army out there.

Chaos vehicles are just no damn good, like vehicles in general. Chaos ones are bad compared to loyalist ones, because loyalists don't get oblits. Loyalist raiders will keep firing at you. They also get really nice techmarines to sit behind them and repair them repeatedly. You don't. You also get a lowered BS. If you haven't played with BS3, it sucks ass. Even twin-linked.

All I'm saying is, Chaos is not points friendly. There is very little wiggle room to save points or increase your effectiveness. Buying small squads of plaguemarines won't do much but leave you vulnerable to heavy weapons fire followed by assaults and outnumbering death.

Having large squads prevents people from assaulting you because it will take forever to take down strong squads of plague marines to the point where you can outnumber them and force a bunch of saves--in your case, if you lose 2 to fire and 2 to close combat that leaves you only 3 plague marines. How hard are you gonna take it when you get outnumbered and suffer a gakload of wounds, and the squad poofs? Ten man squads are not immune to this either. A few lascannon shots, a couple plasmagun shots, a rain of lesser fire, and the squad of 10 is down to 5 guys or less. Can you really hold on to an objective with so few guys? In my experience, you cannot.

Everyone seems to be acting like there are 4 objectives to take, when there aren't. 1-2 looks pretty standard so far, so that means only 1-2 squads need to get there. To secure the area within 3", small squads won't cut it. Having kraks on a large squad will help when the lighter vehicles tank shock you off the objective at the end of the game....more guys you have, the more likely it'll be you can blow them away.

Oh, and I'd recommend meltaguns over plasmaguns for 5th edition--gonna be alot of walking death traps to blow up.

Stelek: I understand the advantage of large squads, but in this case, why would two six man squads guarding an objective be less effective than one twelve man squads (other than the fact that potential VP/KP are easier to gain by assaulting them)? It seems both would be just as daunting to assault, but in the latter case, I have a lot more tactical flexibility.

That's the problem with Chaos.

It cannot be both 'solid' and 'flexible'.

It's not mobile, so being 'flexible' just means small units due to the high cost of everything in the Chaos list.

So maybe it's just me, but the basics of the game are...you need to take objectives and contest quarters. You cannot do it with small units, they're too easy to get rid of. You can do it with large units since you cannot get rid of them even with dedicated cheese lists, it's difficult as hell to shift them.