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2X sorcerer with lash, steed, personal icon, meltabombs - [i]These guys just walk with the noise marines, with the ability to charge out 19"+ if they need to.

6X5 noise marines, 3 sonic blasters, blastmaster

3 defilers, with 2 extra CCW each

And I have points left over for either:

1. 2X5 lesser daemons
2. 2-3 rhinos (depending on how I equip them)

My concerns are that I'm light on AV 14 bustin', and and that hordes might be a problem (though I'm suspecting not with all that shooty goodness). I could lose one of the defilers for a triple lascannon pred, but anyone with AV 14 will direct any and all shooting into that first of course, so it seems like a bad idea. And I don't want to lose the 5 S10 hth attacks.

Its hard to tell whether this is a viable list as most of the rules are rumours. However, it appears that Rhino squads will become more viable than in the 4th ed. Thus, a few Rhino squads are mandatory, as are 6 troop units for scoring purposes.

But I don't understand the deal with the Defilers?

Defilers have big pie plates, which are much improved, and 6 S10 attacks on the charge (which they are likely to get because of their fleet) and it sounds likely they'll get a 4+ cover save if they sit in some woods. Further, as people are forced to take more troops, I predict that people will have less long ranged firepower (and specifically mobile long ranged firepower) to kill them. And powerfists and rending take a hit, so they'll stick around a little bit longer in hth when they get there.

I'm torn on the rhinos. Mobility (and los blocking) are attractive, but so are two more scoring units.

I think the Defilers will do well in this list, esp. due to the Lash being able to get them stuck in quickly.

Two more scoring units? I guess you mean the Daemons? That's really nice.
Nevertheless, I'd take 2 Rhino squads each of which led by an AC with power weapon and doom siren. This hard-core flamer is an MEQ killer.

I don't think MEQs will be a problem. I've got 6 small and 3 large markers and 2 lashes to bunch people up with.

120+ gaunts on really terrain heavy boards and 2+ saves will be a problem though.

wuestenfux wrote:Two more scoring units? I guess you mean the Daemons? That's really nice.

I don't think it'll be long before you start seeing people showing up with a zillion of those 65 point 5 daemon units just to outscore people.

mauleed wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Two more scoring units? I guess you mean the Daemons? That's really nice.

I don't think it'll be long before you start seeing people showing up with a zillion of those 65 point 5 daemon units just to outscore people.

Hah, this means one can still field a few hard hitting units like DPs and Obliterators (or Defilers) and one still has enough scoring units.

The more I think about it, the more I think swapping one of the defilers for a pair of oblits for the AP2 and S9 isn't a bad idea.

mauleed wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think swapping one of the defilers for a pair of oblits for the AP2 and S9 isn't a bad idea.

I opt for 3x 2 Obliterators for shooting goodness.

Have you considered using a possessed Vindicator? S10 can always shoot and move with a big pie plate?

Negativemoney wrote:Have you considered using a possessed Vindicator? S10 can always shoot and move with a big pie plate?

Does the possessed Vindi get a hit in the 5th ed?

Meh, people will take victory points out of those 5 man noise marine squads like nobody's business. Killing 24pt marines that are the same difficulty to kill as 15pt marines? Sign me up.

Defilers -- still Av12, still not any damn good, with or without a pie plate or lash.

The nastiness of lash is going to be brutal, but once people start taking shadow in the warp and/or psychic hoods and/or runes of witnessing in every game, I expect it will be not so great.

I see where you're going here but I just don't think it's going to be anything more than a gimmick, thus far.

Have to agree with Longshot. If you think people can't bring the anti-tank in 5th edition, well, read your codices again!

Oh and please, bring more Rhinos. Especially with Extra armor. Yeah baby! Rhino + free wounds to the marines inside...gotta love it. Oh and not being able to disembark, that's classy right there.

MORE RHINO RUSHING FOR EASY WINS! Sign me up!

I fairly certain that there is nothing that will be changed in 5th that would prevent a possessed Vindicator from shooting. In fact I would think that it is better in 5th as 4/6 results will just stop it from shooting on a glance and 2/6 on a pen.

Longshot wrote:Meh, people will take victory points out of those 5 man noise marine squads like nobody's business. Killing 24pt marines that are the same difficulty to kill as 15pt marines? Sign me up.

Who cares if you take VPs out of them in 5th edition.

Negativemoney wrote:Have you considered using a possessed Vindicator? S10 can always shoot and move with a big pie plate?

I considered it. But a defiler is nearly as valuable in shooting (range vs. strength and AP), and brings a noticable hth threat. And since I don't have any fists in my squads, I think I need the hth threat.

If you lose your scoring units (because the other guy brought elites, fast attack, heavy, HQ's and kicked your crappy troops asses) and your own e/fa/hv/hq (rather pathetic as they might be) kill his few troops because his army is built to kill your troops (called a stratagem) guess who wins?

Yep, not you. Ah who cares about VP's anyway, only n00bs go for the killing blow on the other guys army anyway.

Negativemoney wrote:I fairly certain that there is nothing that will be changed in 5th that would prevent a possessed Vindicator from shooting. In fact I would think that it is better in 5th as 4/6 results will just stop it from shooting on a glance and 2/6 on a pen.

Correct. When you get blown up because of your lousy side armor 11, you don't shoot 6/6 times. If you think you can take a Vindicator, move forward, and lay a template into the other guy without getting shot in the side your next turn...yeah the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale too.

With the extra points I would take a Familiar and Warptime on your Sorcerers. With strength 4, you can't kill anything worth killing, but those re-rolls will put a hurting on things.

You already know what your problems are going to be with your list. There was a thread I did on the importance of Oblits in a chaos list because I ran into the same problem dealing with a 2+save or AV14. Also the way the 5th edition rules are, AV 14 is going to be all over the place.

The other problem will just be getting out shot. Blasmasters are very expensive, and will loose a shooting war against cheaper heavy weapons.

Not to mention with your 5 man squads loaded out like that, you could easily afford a 10 man squad of regular CSM's with a missile launcher, and an Icon of Slaanesh.

Obviously ten marines are harder to kill then 5? And I think Longshot meant to say KP's instead of VP's.

Enter the problem with the new noisemarines - there's not much they can do that regular marines can't for a comparable number of points, especially considering the number of casualties they'll need to do to make each unit non-scoring.

I use noisemarines, as an ap3 template is a nice thing to have any day, but they're backed up by two to 3 10-man squads of marines tagged with anti-infantry duty. I'd switch one defiler out for three obliterators [using those extra points since the 3 oblits will be 75 points more], and either bulk out the noisemarine squads a bit or go for daemons.


Also, I find I have better luck with only one lash. Two is overkill when facing an army with no psychic defense where 1 would be enough to be effective, and if the enemy has runes of warding or a psychic hood I find myself wishing I had more troops or guns instead of that second sorceror.

Other side of the coin is that with two, you're more likely to sneak one past his psychic defenses, but to each their own I guess.

-Spellbound