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So I'm heading into this doubles tournament. each player gets 1000 pts but no lords allowed.

I'm planning on the following but it is really flexible

bruiser with tenderiser
butcher with either bangstick and dispel scroll OR skullmantle and siegebreaker
3 bulls
3x3 ironguts
gorger

(assume I have models to exchange out to modify that list, including yetis and other such things)
my partner is playing skaven, and will be taking 2 engineers fully kitted out, some jezzails, one of the skaven cannon, and some other stuff.

we are almost certain that our enemy list looks like the following:
goblins+goblins, vampire counts+vampire counts, bretonia+empire, not sure of the other pairings but we expect to see high elves, a couple of people playing lizardmen, an all chariot beastman army, and some more empire

we're banking on the 4 magic missiles a turn plus some good shooting backed up by the ogres with some combat res from the skaven blocks.
I'm tempted to do the skullmantle, even though we could go up against the vampires and not be able to use it at all.. panicking something just seems really useful. yetis seem also perhaps like a good idea.

hopefully that is enough information to get some good feedback, would really appreciate it

NaZ

is the doubles tornament between two stores?

just a group of us getting in some fantasy games in a semi competitive environment.

I'm REALLY new to fantasy so I thought I'd reach out and try to get some tactical advice.

currently i'm looking at this slightly modified list:

bruiser with tenderiser
butcher with skullmantle and siegebreaker
2x 3 naked bulls
2x 3 ironguts
either noblars or noblar trappers
1 gorger

so yeah tactical or army list advice would be great. assume I either have the figures or can get them quickly. I'm working on painting some ironguts right now.

Thanks,

NaZ

Umm giving a butcher a weapon like the seige breaker is pretty pointless. You want him to stay alive and cast magic. Cut the seigebreaker. useless on a butcher. The book of skragg, or what ever the book is that helps you prevent damage to you butcher is far better, especially when casting troll guts. Bruiser is good, but the tenderiser isnt really needed in a 1,000 point game. You want be going against any characters much stronger then your bruiser. your bruiser with great weapon is just fine. The seigebreaker on the bruiser would also make more sense. Give your bulls iron fists with the extra poits. Makes them better in CC drastically (this is a PROVEN fact.) the gorger is good, but i personally think it is a bit unreliable. Maneaters or more bulls are a beter choice. Giving a maneater a great weapon makes him lethal. Having a rare choice with stats that are above most other armies heros is great. Hes got strength 7, 4 attacks, 3 wounds, ws 4.

canadian... you must not play ogres lol. every other piece of advice flies right in the face of your suggestions but thanks for chipping in.

I prefer your original list. Being that I am a huge fan of Iron Guts, it's not really a suprise.

Let your skaven buddy field the cannon fodder while you play the shock troops.

The VC opponents seem like the toughest matchup. Ogre MSU tactics revolve around breaking units and Undead just don't break, while Vampires hit back, HARD.

NaZ wrote:canadian... you must not play ogres lol. every other piece of advice flies right in the face of your suggestions but thanks for chipping in.

im really not sure what you mean by that sinc ei play a very succesful ogre army. Like i said, a butcher shouldnt be in CC. A butcher is expensive for a spell caster, and it is pointless if you give him a CC weapon. If you give him seige breaker, then you want to send him into combat. Combat is where he will die the easiest in most cases (unless he gets sniped by a cannon or magic.) He should either walk by units casting magic on em, or simply cast spells on your units before they move. Watch some ogre layers at your store. 9/10 of em wouldnt give a butcher a seigebreaker. The logic of giving a magic user a CC weapon is kinda stupid honestly. Its not like hes a vampire of a Tzeentch lord. He a slightly tougher spell caster. The bruiser doesnt need a tenderiser becasuse unless your playing other ogres, daemons, or VC maybe, then the opponents characters arnt going to be as tough as a bruiser. The tenderisers only benefit over a regular GW is thta its magical and does D3 wounds. A bruiser with a regular GW is more than capable of killing a two wound character. Tenderiser is a point sink in 1,000 points. Iron fists either work as shields in CC or and Extra CC weapon, and their only 4 points, dont see the problem here. Can protect you OR help you out. Even Reguler CC weapons are great. Sure you loose the benefit of ogre clubs, but the extra attacks make up for it pretty well since most standard core dont even have a great save (basically only Chaos, Dwarfs, and Saurus.) Lastly, gorgers are good, but what happens if it comes in in turn 3 or 4? it misses half the battle and may not do much. A man eater for the same amount of points is far more reliable. If you HAVE played enough games, you will know a stubborn, Immune to Phsycology ogre is very scary. Also if you give it a GW ithas 3 S7 attacks. Tell me this is bad. See my point now?

CGK, most of the army lists here on Dakka have Butchers with Siegebreaker. It's really a common practice. I don't personally, but I see it all the time.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the maneaters.
I have my tyrant with a Maneater Bodyguard. A Stubborn, Immune to Phsycology Tyrant with 2 Maneaters is a terrible thing to behold.

Ok yea perhaps your right about the seigebreaker, i really just dont see why you need a S7 butcher walking around. Im pretty confident on the rest of my opinions though, like about the tenderiser in a 1,000 point game.

I'm on the fence about the maneater. or taking 2 and putting the butcher with them so they can fire out magic missiles and str 5 shots from the pistols.

or like adamsouza suggested and run the bruiser with them.

the siegebreaker... str 7 on a butcher is nothing to sneeze at. makes him damn effective in his own right. you can give him that and the skullmantle to make someone that causes mass panic checks and can actually win if challenged. its a really tough debate.

I don't run the butcher solo.. too likely to get sniped out by magic missiles or such. not to mention the potential blocked line of sight and not being able to get off a magic missile.

the tenderiser... I have seen it punk down mighty things and makes the bruiser a definate character killer. still it is quite a points sink and tough to figure out what exactly to do there.

I have all the models handy.. its just a question of what will be most optimal. from what I've gathered of th enemies I'll be playing there won't be any real gunlines.. really limiting what the gorger can do. so tough to figure out. maneaters are just damn expensive at the 1000 pt mark and I don't really want to downgrade more ironguts into bulls to pull that off.

NaZ

I mean if you swap out a couple things, liek the tenderiser, the maneater is only like 10 points mor ethen the gorger. Gargers are effective, but they need to come in in the right time of they can be a point sink. If it comes in infront of a unit of lets say hammerers or somthing, its as good as dead, but if it comes n behaind em, it can cause some problems.

I'm actually debating weather or not the tenderiser is flatly too expensive at 1000 points based on the kind of threats I'm likely to see. sure the overkill combat res is wonderful and could be game breaking.. but if I take out the tenderiser and the gorger I have room for another 3 ogres plus some noblars.

at this point level its really tough to figure out which is going to be the better deal for me.

what I have at the moment while I'm hashing out down this alternate path:
Bruiser with Siegebreaker and HA
Butcher with Bangstick
3 Bulls (naked
4x3 Ironguts
1000 pts on the nose
dropping a bit of wargear nets me a total of 17 ogres on the field which seems nasty as hell. I would not like to but if it is really worth it I could downgrade some of the ironguts and put in noblar but I think my skaven friend will have combat res taken care of.

NaZ

I dont have the book infrotn of me at the moment but i think to use the bangstci, you need some gnoblars. Could be mistaken though. Seigebreaker is good on a buriser. Pisses of warmachines. Also if you go against low initiative armies, its great. I re-looked at the butcher option and i apologize for what i said. It can be good on a butcher if you stick it with a unit of ironguts for example. Its abillity to heal itself is also great for CC. Your choice though. Tenderiser is one of my favorite things in the book, but like i said earlier and what your saying now, it is a bit overkill in 1K it wont do too much no somthing like an elf charcacter or a spell =caster.

I could go either way after getting in a couple of playtest games today.

siegebreaker against elves sucks because of their high ass initiative.. found that out the hard way and lost badly

tenderiser is worthless if my bruiser gets cannoned to death.. so the 50 points may not be worth the investment.

how nessessary are magic weapons? should I just give him a great weapon and spend some of those points on defensive wargear like the gut maw (to increase armor save and regenerate wounds) or fistfull of laurels?

still have a week or two to playtest and hash it out.. like to see this discussion continue so I can refine my list further.

NaZ

You don't need Gnoblars to use a bangstick. Gnoblars are mentioned in the bangstick description because you can shoot though units of Gnoblars with it.

You should have some sort of magic weapons in your army, even if it's a cheap 10pt weapon, because some units require magical weapons to injure. Cairn Wraiths come to mind as being terribly problematic to a magic poor army.

Magic weapons all depend on who your playing. If you play somthing with a lot of etherals, having magic weapons is a good thing. If you have enough other magic though, youll be alright. Ive caused etherals tons and tons of pain with the bonecrusher spell. A GW on a bruiser is fine however. Bruisers dont need to much magic weaponry much of the time. the gut plate would be a better choice IMO.

great advice on that last point CGK.

so I have 2 lists and am up in the air.
bruiser w/ GW and HA
butcher w/ bangstick
2x3 naked bulls
3x3 ironguts
8 trappers

or bruiser w/ GW, HA and gut plate
butcher w/ bangstick
1x3 naked bulls
4x3 ironguts

the trappers actually tied up part of a dwarf gunline for me for a turn while my ironguts closed in so thats where I'm leaning right now

NaZ