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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Eldar list

HQ
Eldrad Ulthran – 210
Avatar of Khaine, 155
Elite
6 Fire dragons,– 96
Troops
10 Dire Avengers, exarch w/ two shuriken catapults, blade storm - 152
10 Guardians scatter laser – 95
10 Guardians scatter laser – 95
10 Dire Avengers, exarch w/ two shuriken catapults, blade storm - 152

fast attack
6 swooping hawks exarch w/ Hawk’s talon, intercept – 153
3 vypers shuriken cannon - 150
3 vypers shuriken cannon, spirit stones - 180

heavy support
wraithlord 2flamers, bright lance, starcannon – 160
3 war walkers 2x scatter lasers, spirit stones – 195
Falcon scatter laser shuriken cannon, holo-field, vectored engines, spirit stones – 205 (falcon carries fire dragons)

Total 1998

New list tactics
Vypers, Falcon and swooping hawks will move up on one side focusing on the infantry and when able the fire dragons will disembark and lay waste to any enemy tanks or transports, also the Swooping hawks will be trying to get into close combat with a enemy tank or transport as fast as they can to use hay wire grenades on them.

On the other side the army that will be left for strong resistance I will use the war walkers with their scatter lasers talking down infantry while the wraithlord will take out any enemy tanks or transports, these two units will be very close to each other and right behind them will be my Eldrad Ulthran casting guide on both of them and fortune on himself.

Pressing up the middle will be the avatar being escorted by the 2 dire avengers squads with support fire from the 2 guardian squads.

If there are any changes please leave a comment or some advice.

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in dk
Stalwart Space Marine




KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN! I... I mean... For the Emperor?..

Nice list, but with a weakness. Relying on the Avatar to keep any nasty CC freaks off you will be your doom. Capital letters too. Any sane opponent will blasts your Avatar to smithereens with plenty of Str. 8 weapons, knock out your vehicles with their Puny AV 10-12 with aforementioned weapons, and then unleash a gribbly tide of CC doom on you. In terms of firepower, you can't compete with Tau, and in terms of roundedness, you are doomed (again with capital letters). Suggest scratching the Dire Avengers for more some Banshees or Striking Scorpions depending on your opponent.

The Ten Commandments of the Space Marine
1. Thou shalt never, ever, ever argue with the Machine Spirit!
2. Thou shalt always remember that the only thing Flamers are sanctioned to cook is Tyranids. Or, lacking these, thine local contingent of Imperial Guardsmen.
3. Thou shalt always stick "Honk if you think i'm Sexy" stickers on the sides of Rhino's carrying Sisters of Battle.
4. Thou shalt, whenever in doubt, hit on the blonde Battle Sister.
5. Thou shalt not slap the most holy of buttocks of thine Sisters the Battle Sisters and utter the blasphemous words "OMG l33t a55!", unless thou wishest to clean the treads of thine Rhino with thine tongue!
6. Thou shallst not use the chainfists of thine holy Terminator brethren as impromptu can openers.
7. Thou may haveth two livers, but thou shallst not therefore drink twice as much.
8. Thou shallst not refer to Sisters of Battle as the Cavalry.
9. Thou shallst on pain of death not paint the heretical words: "Your Farseer is my other ride!" upon thine Rhino!
10. Thou shallst always remember these wise words: Spase Marines are t3h uberz! Hurr!  
   
Made in dk
Stalwart Space Marine




KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN! I... I mean... For the Emperor?..

Also, relying on the Swooping Hawks, Falcon and Vypers to take out infantry might be reasonable against IGQ armies, but MEQs will shrug off anything those guys can throw at them 2/3'ds of the time. Give the Falcon a Pulse Laser and Bright Lance instead. The wraithlord will, and the Falcon if you are unlucky, will both go down on turn 1, leaving you neck deep. The holo field gives a decent amount of survivability, but like all else, murphy's law applies, and so the probability of it going haywire just when it isn't supposed to is above 90%

The Ten Commandments of the Space Marine
1. Thou shalt never, ever, ever argue with the Machine Spirit!
2. Thou shalt always remember that the only thing Flamers are sanctioned to cook is Tyranids. Or, lacking these, thine local contingent of Imperial Guardsmen.
3. Thou shalt always stick "Honk if you think i'm Sexy" stickers on the sides of Rhino's carrying Sisters of Battle.
4. Thou shalt, whenever in doubt, hit on the blonde Battle Sister.
5. Thou shalt not slap the most holy of buttocks of thine Sisters the Battle Sisters and utter the blasphemous words "OMG l33t a55!", unless thou wishest to clean the treads of thine Rhino with thine tongue!
6. Thou shallst not use the chainfists of thine holy Terminator brethren as impromptu can openers.
7. Thou may haveth two livers, but thou shallst not therefore drink twice as much.
8. Thou shallst not refer to Sisters of Battle as the Cavalry.
9. Thou shallst on pain of death not paint the heretical words: "Your Farseer is my other ride!" upon thine Rhino!
10. Thou shallst always remember these wise words: Spase Marines are t3h uberz! Hurr!  
   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





Give the Falcon a Pulse Laser and Bright Lance instead.


You, sir, just disqualified yourself from giving any advice about Eldar. Falcons come with a Pulse Laser as default, and the BL is the worst possible thing to give it in 4th ed, because you can only fire one main weapon while moving. Have you ever actually used a Falcon or faced one on the tabletop?

By the way, you should crunch the math on the survivability of a Fortuned Avatar against S8+. You might be surprised.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





And also i am not going to set up any of my guys in plane sight first turn, every heavy power gun on my list can move and fire thier heavy weapons. war walkers have 24 str 6 ap 6 shots at range 36 with the eldrad behind them they then become re-rolled on average thats 18 armour saves the space marine has to take. think about that.

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in dk
Stalwart Space Marine




KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN! I... I mean... For the Emperor?..

I have. Usually i try to park it somewhere and have it shoot. For some reason i have yet to have lost it. You are right about the bright lance. The Eldar thing wasn't a serious effort too. Thought i would experiment a bit. Turns out i hate them :( The reason i think the avatar will be shot to pieces, is that everybody is, and should be afraid of it. So most likely a lot of opponents will direct their fire at the biggest, baddest enemy in sight. For all you Forrest Gumps out there, that's in order of listing, Avatar, Falcon, Wraithlords. Eldrad will also recieve a lot of attention, but being an IC can negate enemy Las-sniping by staying close to inf squads all sneaky-like. My opinion on this Eldar army is still that it lacks decent counter-assault troops, which the Eldar have plenty of.

The Ten Commandments of the Space Marine
1. Thou shalt never, ever, ever argue with the Machine Spirit!
2. Thou shalt always remember that the only thing Flamers are sanctioned to cook is Tyranids. Or, lacking these, thine local contingent of Imperial Guardsmen.
3. Thou shalt always stick "Honk if you think i'm Sexy" stickers on the sides of Rhino's carrying Sisters of Battle.
4. Thou shalt, whenever in doubt, hit on the blonde Battle Sister.
5. Thou shalt not slap the most holy of buttocks of thine Sisters the Battle Sisters and utter the blasphemous words "OMG l33t a55!", unless thou wishest to clean the treads of thine Rhino with thine tongue!
6. Thou shallst not use the chainfists of thine holy Terminator brethren as impromptu can openers.
7. Thou may haveth two livers, but thou shallst not therefore drink twice as much.
8. Thou shallst not refer to Sisters of Battle as the Cavalry.
9. Thou shallst on pain of death not paint the heretical words: "Your Farseer is my other ride!" upon thine Rhino!
10. Thou shallst always remember these wise words: Spase Marines are t3h uberz! Hurr!  
   
Made in dk
Stalwart Space Marine




KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! MAIM! BURN! I... I mean... For the Emperor?..

And regarding the War Walkers. Yes, yes, that is a lot of shots. But war walkers can be mowed down by a HB piecemeal. They will be shot to pieces. Fast. It is not a bad list, but if you end up fighting horde armies or "how many marines can you fit on the table?" armies with lots of PF's and Las/Plas squads, you have a definite weakness. This army is great for taking down IGEQs, but has a weakness, not a major one though, against MEQ's.

The Ten Commandments of the Space Marine
1. Thou shalt never, ever, ever argue with the Machine Spirit!
2. Thou shalt always remember that the only thing Flamers are sanctioned to cook is Tyranids. Or, lacking these, thine local contingent of Imperial Guardsmen.
3. Thou shalt always stick "Honk if you think i'm Sexy" stickers on the sides of Rhino's carrying Sisters of Battle.
4. Thou shalt, whenever in doubt, hit on the blonde Battle Sister.
5. Thou shalt not slap the most holy of buttocks of thine Sisters the Battle Sisters and utter the blasphemous words "OMG l33t a55!", unless thou wishest to clean the treads of thine Rhino with thine tongue!
6. Thou shallst not use the chainfists of thine holy Terminator brethren as impromptu can openers.
7. Thou may haveth two livers, but thou shallst not therefore drink twice as much.
8. Thou shallst not refer to Sisters of Battle as the Cavalry.
9. Thou shallst on pain of death not paint the heretical words: "Your Farseer is my other ride!" upon thine Rhino!
10. Thou shallst always remember these wise words: Spase Marines are t3h uberz! Hurr!  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





So for the space marines and there power fists they have to catch me first. dire avengers can move 6 inches and shoot 18 inches assault 2 str 4 and ap 5. have the wraithlord pop out of cover and drop a enemy tank. and if he gets in close combat str 10 toughness 8. vypers on the other hand can zoom circles around marines moving 6 inches a turn laying down 24 inch str 6 ap 5 assault 3 wshots on them while they try and cathch me and if the terminators get near my falcon get my fire dragons out and fusion gun them. so its all about getting caught first.

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Oniwaban






That's a good list. I still recommend a few tweaks, though.

With a Brightlance and starcannon on the WL, you are wasting half your capacity whenever you shoot at tanks. Take an EML. it still has the ability to splat Marines, and is much better versus MCs, Wraithlords, etc. This tweak is not minor- it really effects your anti-tank power a lot. Versus enemies with two or more AV13+ units, it could be very important.

I'd also switch one of the DA exarchs to PW/SS and add Defend, as they make a good support for the Avenger that way. YMMV, though. If you can find the points it's worth it, but a minor point because they're already Fearless.

If you need points to fund any changes, drop the spirit stones from the Vyper squad. They're a nice extra when you can afford them though, and add resiliency to that unit. Nice touch, as it allows one of your Vyper squads to take more risks than usual when cover is limited. But if the stones have to go, it's no big deal.

I also strongly disagree with Two Daemons. You have enough volume of fire to make facing MEQ possible, while shredding hordes. Do not drop the Avengers, especially not for Banshees.

What you do lack is good long-range punch versus heavily armored infantry/MCs, and enough redundant anti-tank. Fixing the setup on the Wraithlord will help remedy the latter, while the former is something you will probably just have to learn to deal with.

On the upside, while you lack weapons that will pierce MEQ armor, you will be forcing a lot of model-specific armor saves via Torrent of Fire. This alone can reduce the effectiveness of the squads that you are shooting almost as much as killing more models. Be careful to always, always use ToF when you get enough wounds. You mention volume of fire yourself, but a reminder seemed a good idea as everyone seems to forget this rule on occasion.

Again, good list. The combination of mobile and advancing foot elements will be powerful. I look forward to hearing how it does. Batreps, please!

Infinity: Way, way better than 40K and more affordable to boot!

"If you gather 250 consecutive issues of White Dwarf, and burn them atop a pyre of Citadel spray guns, legend has it Gwar will appear and answer a single rules-related question. " -Ouze 
   
Made in us
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.................................... Searching for Iscandar

tegeus-Cromis wrote:By the way, you should crunch the math on the survivability of a Fortuned Avatar against S8+. You might be surprised.


Is it somewhere around 4+ with a re-roll? Roughly 75%?

If you have enough heavy weapons to fire, he'll drop like the sack of potatoes he is.

At least he isn't Mr. Oh noes furious charge marines with a chaplain! anymore. Oh wait, he is.

   
Made in us
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Why i want to keep the starcannon is because of terminators every 2k list has terminators and when the wraith lord can drop 3 in one turn he gets his points worth pretty much with that. Also why ne defend is becasue i am expecting to be able to run from the enemies and kill them with 22 str 4 shots a turn or if i get in a jam i put bladestrom then its 32 shots and no shooting next turn. The only thing i think the list is going to get screwed on is NIDZILLA lists ill get killed.

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

thereaperlord wrote:
Eldrad Ulthran – 210
Avatar of Khaine, 155


Eldatar. I don't think much of this combo.

It works great against newbies, people unfamiliar with Eldar, and people playing smurfs.

It works very poorly against Mech lists, non-marines, non-newbies. i.e. Who you usually see at GT's.

thereaperlord wrote:
6 Fire dragons,– 96


Excellent unit.

A good variation is a Exarch w/Dragon's Breath Flamer and Crackshot.

thereaperlord wrote:
10 Dire Avengers, exarch w/ two shuriken catapults, blade storm - 152
10 Dire Avengers, exarch w/ two shuriken catapults, blade storm - 152


Well, Tau IG and Marines have your number--missile pods, autocannons, and heavy bolters will see you off.

Everyone loves these guys for tarpitting carnifex units. I wish I played opponents stupid enough to not kill you to a man before you got into CC.

Here's how DA really work:

Jump out, shout boo, fire alot of shots or ALOT of shots.

Get shot dead and/or run away.

thereaperlord wrote:
10 Guardians scatter laser – 95
10 Guardians scatter laser – 95


Quite a bit less than a DA squad, and 12" more range.

thereaperlord wrote:
6 swooping hawks exarch w/ Hawk’s talon, intercept – 153


These guys are like DA with 1 less strength and 6" more range. They really don't cut it. I'll explain more on that later.

thereaperlord wrote:
3 vypers shuriken cannon - 150


Without scatter lasers to let you sit back and shoot, you'll get killed by everything under the sun.

thereaperlord wrote:
3 vypers shuriken cannon, spirit stones - 180


Same thing here, except you can move and hide.

Everyone disagrees with me (well, almost everyone) on running holo-fields + scatter lasers + spirit stones as a more viable target.

thereaperlord wrote:
wraithlord 2flamers, bright lance, starcannon – 160


Try a EML and a BL. You still kill 2 marines a turn if you've got nothing else to shoot.

However, with a EML you can sit at 48" and ignore alot of weapons because they can't hit you.

You'd only bring the BL forward to try and tackle land raiders.

Vehicles will generally move into range of you. Only tri-las preds and the 72" weapons will sit outside your range and pummel you--nothing you can do about that.

thereaperlord wrote:
3 war walkers 2x scatter lasers, spirit stones – 195


Worse than Vypers really. 12+36" is better than D6+36". Vypers setup last, War Walkers first. That scout move means nothing, if you gamble on getting first turn and fail, you lose your walkers first turn. You can always hide the Vypers and hit anything you want to with them.

thereaperlord wrote:
Falcon scatter laser shuriken cannon, holo-field, vectored engines, spirit stones – 205 (falcon carries fire dragons)


Fine selection here. Personally I don't use the vectored engines. You'll be stunned anyway, right? So unless it's the last turn and the other guy doesn't get another turn, he'll penetrate you next turn and blow you up anyway. So why bother. This isn't a pathetic VP denial army, after all.

thereaperlord wrote:
Vypers, Falcon and swooping hawks will move up on one side focusing on the infantry and when able the fire dragons will disembark and lay waste to any enemy tanks or transports, also the Swooping hawks will be trying to get into close combat with a enemy tank or transport as fast as they can to use hay wire grenades on them.


Swooping hawks will never get into CC with vehicles. Experienced players will run away their vehicles or put a squad in front of said vehicle and prevent your charge. They got a neat ability, but can't really use it against most enemies. More on this later.

thereaperlord wrote:
On the other side the army that will be left for strong resistance I will use the war walkers with their scatter lasers talking down infantry while the wraithlord will take out any enemy tanks or transports, these two units will be very close to each other and right behind them will be my Eldrad Ulthran casting guide on both of them and fortune on himself.


You need more heavy weapons to take out mechanized forces. Swooping hawks will not do the trick for you.

thereaperlord wrote:
Pressing up the middle will be the avatar being escorted by the 2 dire avengers squads with support fire from the 2 guardian squads.
If there are any changes please leave a comment or some advice.


You don't have enough bodies to protect the Avatar and Eldrad. Even with fortune on two of the four units, the other guy will just shoot the non-fortuned units to death in turns 1 and 2. Then you have what, 2 guardian units? Real assault units rip those to shreds, and can take on the Avatar and Eldrad long enough for the rest of your army to be removed from the table.

Which is the problem with the Eldatar combo. Everything outside their bubble, well, you kill it. Then you focus fire on Eldatar's support, then you take on Eldatar.

Everyone seems to have a problem with the combo, mostly because they panic. Your army, they'll have even less of a problem with because you have so many specialized units running around but you have no real redundancy.

Despite all the claims to the contrary, dire avengers are not CC troops. Neither are guardians. One 4+ S3 attack from a T3 guy with a 4+/5+ save is a joke. Regular tactical squads are the standard you measure against, and they fall short of that so how good are they? 5+ invulnerable save? Meaningless. You're going to die to regular wounds, taken on your crap save. Even with fortune, it's no good if you take 8-9 wounds from an assault unit.

A real assault force of say 2 marine jump pack squads led by chaplains (quite decent really, but often not taken to tournaments) will just annihilate you. Especially if they have furious charge.
Lemartes blood angels army is by no means 'over the top' with tons of bodies, but he'd run into your gaggle of pisspoor troops with a knock out punch PDQ. Then you'd be throwing your entire army into close combat just to try and hold on...and by then, a moderate shooting army like yours has already lost, because the assault troops aren't being shot anymore but are being assaulted by moderate shooting units pretending to be CC units. Assault marines win those fights.

You need to focus your aspect warriors and especially your heavy choices. Why are you bringing S3 swooping hawks when you can dump those points into survivable vypers? Why bring war walkers, they're a very sharp knife and it's a sledgehammer fight. If you don't gut your opponent immediately, you die. Run the math on a tactical squad in 6man las/plas formation. Hit them with guided scatter lasers and the unit is doomed. Does the lascannon die? 2 in 6 chance. Does the whole squad die after? No. Does that mean a lascannon shot (which autoglances if it hits) is coming back your way? Usually, yes. And the partner squad next to it? And if there's a command squad with an apothecary nearby? You don't want to run this unit because frankly it sucks. If you line up 3 vypers from 30-36" away in a mombo line, and block LOS to you from everything but your target squad...which is very easy to do with vypers but not easy to do with walkers, can you really afford to run walkers instead of vypers? Vypers at least have maneuver and holo-fields and SMF to protect them. War walkers have...very little else to protect them once they move out. Turn 2, all dead or weaponless.

So it's not that your list is bad, it's that it's not focused. If you really need to kill a monolith, and the hawks die...whaddya do?

   
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So you are saying focuse all my points into 3 squads of vypers and nothing else pretty much.

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Also does no one understand that I would start my like entire army behind any cover that i would have on the table

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

No, not at all.

I'm saying if you are going to bring something, use enough of them so if they get destroyed you have a backup.

If they have a job, make sure they live long enough to do it.

If you are going to play a certain combo, ensure you have enough units to support the combo.

Btw my 2k lists don't have terminators. The strength of many veteran players is not having huge points sinks that aren't worth every point in their list, and giving the other guy lots of 'soft' targets and that's about it.

Hammerheads, worth the points you spend. Land Raiders, not so much.

Two Hammerheads, good. Three, a little overboard.
Two Land Raiders, more than twice as bad as one and three...well, three is a gift not often seen in 40K but one that's always appreciated.

So it is with most lists. Duality is usually very useful in a list, as you can do more with two than you could with one. So you are on the right track, you just need to bring more than one of several of those units.

Everything in an Eldar army can be 'good'. You need to bring enough along so you can see it for yourself. 5 swooping hawks will always disappoint you. So will 1 wraithlord. Just not enough of a threat, so they will be ignored until the last possible moment. Which means the rest of your army takes the heat for being more of a threat.

I hope that helps. Playing alot of wargames will teach you this.

   
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.................................... Searching for Iscandar

thereaperlord wrote:Also does no one understand that I would start my like entire army behind any cover that i would have on the table


Of course we understand.

If only that was really possible.

Sometimes, you can really only hide 1 or 2 units. Everything else, well, not every army might see it but alot of armies can zip right out and shoot you from an angle.

Just the way the world works.

   
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So no warwalkers, no swooping hawks no single WL, so tons of vypers and falcons.

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Or:

2xwarwalker units, 2x swooping hawks.

It's all a matter of balance.

When you look over a list, you have to see what is anti-infantry anti-tank or hybrid and if it's shooty or CC.

Alot of hybrid units are actually no good at shooting or at CC.

Warwalkers excel at shooting. Horrible at CC.

With everything that is 40k, range is king. If you can outrange most of what he's got as secondary weapons; you can also outrange his CC.

That's a powerful advantage in 40k.

I do quite well with that concept behind most of my armies in 40k.

If you analyze each Codex, you can see which units do what and how they can support each other.

You always need:

Heavy anti-tank (single shots).
Light anti-tank (multiple shots).
Heavy anti-infantry (multiple shots).
Light anti-infantry (single shots).
Mobility or a wall.
Redundancy in a army.
A focus on what the army does. (Don't run half CC and half shooty--you'll suck at both.)

Note the distinct lack of CC in the requirements above. You need to be really good with an army not to need CC, as there are lots of CC oriented armies out there, but...you don't have to have the 'blankee' of a CC unit.

Hope that helps.

   
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Fresh-Faced New User





should I even take Eldrad Ulthran

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

If you are taking the Avatar, yes.

If you aren't, maybe maybe not...if it's a mech list and you aren't sitting a farseer in a firebase of rangers, I would take the farseer on a bike.

If you are going to make a combination list, with mech and non-mech elements...it's your call.

Personally I'd take Eldrad over any foot farseer myself.

I run mine mech with a bike farseer and a bike autarch and I do fairly well with it. Fairly=unbeaten. Not sure if I can take my Orks, haven't tested that yet though.

   
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What weapon do i give a biked autarch?

Those who don't cry never saw the blade coming. Those who cry always see thier brothers die.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Most give laser lance, mandiblasters, and a bike. Then they stick him with a shining spears squadron.

It's a totally different army type from the one you've been contemplating.

Mech armies are not 'easy' to use. Ground based armies are in comparison quite a bit easier to learn with.

You can always do what most Eldar players do.

Start ground, go mixed, end up mech; buy another army and start the crazy fun all over again.

   
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Infiltrating Oniwaban






Stelek wrote:Mech armies are not 'easy' to use. Ground based armies are in comparison quite a bit easier to learn with.

You can always do what most Eldar players do.

Start ground, go mixed, end up mech; buy another army and start the crazy fun all over again.


QFT.

Although this Eldar player finds himself sliding back towards foot-based these days- both becuase the resiliency of more troops is fun (and Eldar troops are still quite fast for infantry), and because I'm trying to get better with troops for 5th.


Infinity: Way, way better than 40K and more affordable to boot!

"If you gather 250 consecutive issues of White Dwarf, and burn them atop a pyre of Citadel spray guns, legend has it Gwar will appear and answer a single rules-related question. " -Ouze 
   
 
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