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I've been working on an IG army for quite a few years, off and on, and hope to finally finish it sometime this year.

I'm a treadhead coming out of the historicals armour modeling, and this is pretty strongly reflected in my vehicle conversions, some of which are fairly extensive. For example, my Russes are styled somewhat after the JagdPanzers / SturmPanzers.

The problem that I had been struggling with for quite some time with how to name and paint the army in a (relatively) ideologically "neutral" fashion, given the heavy Panzer influences in the vehicle designs. In other words, I wanted to retain certain core Panzer-related elements, without being offensive. This was a real problem and consumed a lot of thought. As of the end of January this year, I decided on the following:

- Ragnarok 1st Regiment "Einherjar". Ragnarok is the German mythological equivalent of Armageddon, which has been well-established as a name for an Imperial Guard world. Following the GW baseline and simply translating to German fits my theme without having to make any further statement. Einherjar, is the German mythological army of the dead, eternal warriors. I think this is very appropriate given that they're toy soldiers.

- Army Standard adapted from First World War Imperial German War Flag to a black-and-white standard. This has nice, strong, Prussian military overtones, without having any real-world counterpart. I intend to stylize the eagle to fit better in the 40k universe. Tentative regimental standard is attached.

- Black Cross (squared Iron Cross) as my vehicle device, representing my forge capability (nearly all vehicles are converted to some extent). In most cases, this will be done in modern reduced-contrast or outline form. As an aside, my forge is Niebelungenwerke, named after the WW2 tank factory which produced the awesome JagdPanzer IV/70 (my favorite historical tank); this is strictly a Fluff name, and most vehicles would be known as "Ragnarok-pattern" to avoid having to discuss the subsequent title usage by Wagner and his views.

- full "tiger stripe" jungle camo ponchos & smocks for infantry, using OOP metal Tallarn & Cadian models. First, I really like the look of IG in dark green camo, despite occasionally "losing" a unit in cover. As historical German period forces didn't operate in jungle, nor wear such camo colors / patterns, I make this my own.

- full "ambush" jungle camo for vehicles, again in dark green. This is also deliberate, as it allows the geometric black-and-white army insignia to stand out more clearly, while further emphasizing how the army is a 40k army.

I like to believe that this will have the desired effect of showcasing the tanks as Panzers, without treading onto WW2 themes, as I've tried to strip away all direct references to WW2 aside from the Black Cross.

For those who are curious as to where my army sits today, it's here.

OK, floodgates are open - question and comment away!

That's nice - and those tank conversions sound AWESOME! The Panzers owned, to say the least.

Now, if anyone tries making "ZOMGNAZI!!1" comments on this thread, they can feel my tasty jackboot.

I like the flag to - WW1 German army is nice to draw from by terms of art and idealism. I still want to see someone make British Mark 1 tanks!

if your worried about the imagery I might modify the flag since thats just an extended balkenkreuz you have on the background. The original iron cross is much more similar to the actualmaltese cross, ie more triangular in nature.

the square one is very much burried in 1930s/40s deutchland

Soviets also used assault guns and your cammo designs are not WW2. However, adding WW2 German influence in the insignia risks dragging you into the "neo-Nazi" crossfire which you are well aware off.

So I would do the following:

1. Make the names in Polish or Czech, not German. Sounds middle European.

2. Turn the cross into an off-centre saltire so it won't look like a German banner but preserves the stark black and white.

3. Replace the eagle with a standard Imperiumal™ eagle. No-one can complain about an IG army using the Imperium's eagle.

4. When someone comliments your tank designs, just say they are based on WW2 era assault guns.

HF wrote:if your worried about the imagery I might modify the flag since thats just an extended balkenkreuz you have on the background. The original iron cross is much more similar to the actualmaltese cross, ie more triangular in nature.

the square one is very much burried in 1930s/40s deutchland

I'm not so much worried about the imagery, as I did a fair amount of homework in terms of selecting and developing the specific icons I'll be using. I'm very aware of the differences between the Maltese Cross (Templar & fireman's), Iron Cross, and Black Cross. I don't like the fireman's cross, as it isn't as "precise" as the others. The Templar cross has been taken by the Space Marines, so I can't really use it for a Guard army. The Iron Cross, with its curved sides, despite being rehabilitated for use in present-day Germany, still has too much of a visual link with Nazi-era Germany. The Black Cross, however, was primarily used on Luftwaffe and Panzers, which has the primarily mechanical / technological focus that I specifically want to emphasize.

It is no accident that the flag design I've based off of the WW1-era Imperial War Ensign is visually similar to the Black Cross - it's the "complex" form of the simplified armor device. It helps to tie the army elements together, infantry command squad to armor.

Kilkrazy wrote:Soviets also used assault guns and your cammo designs are not WW2. However, adding WW2 German influence in the insignia risks dragging you into the "neo-Nazi" crossfire which you are well aware off.

So I would do the following:

1. Make the names in Polish or Czech, not German. Sounds middle European.

2. Turn the cross into an off-centre saltire so it won't look like a German banner but preserves the stark black and white.

3. Replace the eagle with a standard Imperiumal™ eagle. No-one can complain about an IG army using the Imperium's eagle.

4. When someone comliments your tank designs, just say they are based on WW2 era assault guns.

First off, I flat out don't like the design aesthetic of Soviet armor. A lot of it is ugly industrial crap without any artistry - in other words, typical Soviet. I like the look of the German Panzers. I fully expect and am willing to concede the occasional comment due to my specific incorporation of the historical Black Cross.

1. Yes, I could claim them to be actual Prussian (currently Poland), but I fail to see how claiming they're "Polish" (or Sudeten) Germans makes things any better. Certainly, I won't be switching heraldry to incorporate the red and white of the Polish flag...

2. I'm neither Irish, Scot, nor ACW Confederate, so I won't be using a diagonal cross. Besides, the reduced symmetry works against the notion of precision that I'm trying to convey. For the most part, the armor insignia will be the 4 pale grey or off-white corners, without the black center. This forces the design into the strictly military realm in the same way that the IDF-style chevrons do on modern armor.

3. As I stated originally, I'll be simplifying the eagle to something more Imperial. First, I want something more abstract to fit with the army design. Second, I dont' have the time or inclination to paint a Prussian war eagle down to 28mm scale.

4. If people ask about the conversions, I'm going to be forthright and tell them the truth. It's a fair question, and deserves an honest answer. So while, yes, the armor is specifically based on / styled after WW2 *German* assault guns, the detail elements are specifically 40k. It's why I retain the (goofy) 40k Leman Russ track layout and simply scratch-build around it. It's also why I refuse to use historical scale elements or chassis - I prefer to keep my historicals and 40k separate.

Anyhow, thanks for your comments and suggestions.

My two cents...

I don't see any problem with the Imperial German flag (the 2nd Reich being considerable more palatable than the 3rd). You see such flags occasionally at sporting events - especially Formula1 auto races during the Schumacher era. As far as the squared-off Iron Cross being 30s/40s specific, I have to disagree. Here's a Fokker D.VII (c. 1918) sporting a square cross:



As regards the eagle, the feathery Prussian fellow looks more like the modern Rumanian/Albanian eagle than the stylized, angular "Reich Eagle". The GW Imperial eagle looks way closer to a National Socialist eagle than does the Prussian one.

I think the recent debates over the dodgy WWII/WaffenSS-themed armies may have us seeing swastikas everywhere.

I've always liked that eggshell pattern camouflage. I tried to recreate it on my Imperial fighter-bomber but gave up.

Metal storm shields have a very Germanic/Iron cross motif to them and make excellent tank badges for elite units.

Well, I don't see much in the way of vehicles that look like Panzers.

Are you trying to imply with the boards on the sides of the tank that you have Schurzen? Surely you jest? It has the same crappy look GW gives all their treads, that of WW1.

It's why I don't buy GW 'imperial' tanks of any sort, they look awful. Lots and lots of modding required to get rid of that asshump at the front of the track.

Anyway I don't think much of the Schurzen making it look Panzer'ish, since it looks like a chimera hull with some spaced extra armor.

This is how it should look:



I don't think there'd be a real issue with small symbols but even a basic German symbol from the era will cause issues.

You'll note the current Bundeswehr uses this:

DFo wrote:I don't see any problem with the Imperial German flag (the 2nd Reich being considerable more palatable than the 3rd).

As far as the squared-off Iron Cross being 30s/40s specific, I have to disagree. Here's a Fokker D.VII (c. 1918) sporting a square cross:

As regards the eagle, the feathery Prussian fellow looks more like the modern Rumanian/Albanian eagle than the stylized, angular "Reich Eagle". The GW Imperial eagle looks way closer to a National Socialist eagle than does the Prussian one.

I think the recent debates over the dodgy WWII/WaffenSS-themed armies may have us seeing swastikas everywhere.

With the flag and cross, you hit the nail on the head as to why I'm choosing them instead of the later alternatives.

The eagle is kind of a funny thing because practically *everybody* uses eagles: Americans, Polish, Germans, etc. To me, when I see the 40k Imperial Eagle, it looks more Russian to me, as it is a double-headed chicken. The "eagle" I'll be using will be highly stylized, more like BA / DA "wings".

As I anticipated, the presence of any imagery / iconography will raise questions among some people. But as I intend to clearly subordinate the historical iconography to the 40k modeling and themes, I hope this will be less of an issue.

Stelek wrote:Well, I don't see much in the way of vehicles that look like Panzers.

Are you trying to imply with the boards on the sides of the tank that you have Schurzen?

It has the same crappy look GW gives all their treads, that of WW1.

It's why I don't buy GW 'imperial' tanks of any sort, they look awful. Lots and lots of modding required to get rid of that asshump at the front of the track.

Anyway I don't think much of the Schurzen making it look Panzer'ish, since it looks like a chimera hull with some spaced extra armor.

I don't think there'd be a real issue with small symbols but even a basic German symbol from the era will cause issues.

You'll note the current Bundeswehr uses this:

The overall layout of my Russ is like a mirrored JagdPz IV, with similarly angular armor plate.

The Demolishers utilize Schurzen skirts to more clearly represent AV13 vs AV12 sides.

They are 40k IG Russes, which is why they use the GW WW1-styled tracks. It is a royal pain to do custom tracks, so I'm kind of stuck with them.

FWIW, the problem with the IG tanks isn't the bit of road rubber (US M-60 tanks have this, too). The problem is the hull length-height ratio. That's why my Russes have considerably longer, lower central hulls.

You are correct that the Chimera-based vehicles have spaced Extra Armor modeled.

I am well aware the Germany currently uses the traditional Iron Cross with curved sides instead of the Black Cross, and covered my rationale for why I selected the Black Cross.

I am aware that even small elements may cause issues. That is why I started the thread for discussion and feedback. I wanted to discern, to what extent, the small elements I am planning on incorporating cause issues for others.

Make the symbol small. Teeny. Tiny. So it only gets noticed if your tank gets picked up.

Toss in making it as inoffensive as possible, and you will probably be just fine.

Just fyi, this is part of why it touches off so many rows.

It isn't just doing it, it's the appearance of impropriety in accepting that makes doing armies like this so difficult.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/07/europe/07formula.php

FWIW, I love how the Panther tank looks (the WW2 German one) but would I put German signs on it? No, I'd be happy with the neat look of the model.

You can have a house in almost any size or shape that you want, but when you paint it pink--that's when people have problems with it.

Unless you live in a town full of pink houses, then substitute green for pink.

IMO...

Hiding the badge entirely pretty much defeats the purpose of having a badge at all, and sends the wrong message about what I'm doing.

There is a bit of a difference between from the very start when between having a jungle-camo IG and hiring several prostitutes for a sex orgy.

If GW is OK having a 40k crusader army with historical Crusader imagery and badge (Black Templars), then similar (or reduced) limited usage shouldn't be any different for the IG.

If I'm making a model of a Panther tank, it will be modeled and painted to look like a Panther tank. If that means it has a Swastika, Waffen SS badge, Eisenkruze or Balkenkreuze to match, so be it. OTOH, if the historical model didn't have such markings, then it would be inappropriate to add them gratuitously.

Finally, how dare you cast aspersions upon my grandmother's pink house!

You know what I'm going to tell you JHDD, if you like the look, go for it and let people work around you rather than the other way around. I'm not as knowledgeable about history as some of the posters in this thread, but in my opinion nothing you've shown so far here and in the link would leave a well educated layman wondering if you have an "alternative viewpoint" so to speak.

One thing you can do is pretty much what you've said, use the shapes and textures you like on the tanks then fill the army with victorian era uniforms or something.

As much grey area as there is here, I think if you go into it with a certain attitude and listening to your intuition you're going to be ok. While I've definitely gone to bat for that guy ( we all know what I'm talking about), I think there is no question that the army was designed to create conversation. No way I'd show up at a gamestore with it myself. If you're not going in to it with the mindset of throwing rocks at a hornets nest, that fact alone will help you a lot .

George Spiggott wrote:I've always liked that eggshell pattern camouflage. I tried to recreate it on my Imperial fighter-bomber but gave up.

....

You can get transfer sheets of the German WW1 aircraft camouflage. Very unusual and cool. I am going to try it on some of my Tau vehicles. I'll try to find the link on my computer at work.

I wonder what's more expensive -- an SM sex orgy with five prostitutes or an IG army.

Kilkrazy wrote:I wonder what's more expensive -- an SM sex orgy with five prostitutes or an IG army.

Am I weird because the first thing I thought of when I saw "SM" was Space Marines?

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I wonder what's more expensive -- an SM sex orgy with five prostitutes or an IG army.

Am I weird because the first thing I thought of when I saw "SM" was Space Marines?

That is the same thing I thought at first. I actually spent a few seconds rolling it over in my mind, trying to figure out how that would work.

Grignard wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I wonder what's more expensive -- an SM sex orgy with five prostitutes or an IG army.

Am I weird because the first thing I thought of when I saw "SM" was Space Marines?

That is the same thing I thought at first. I actually spent a few seconds rolling it over in my mind, trying to figure out how that would work.

You've never been to /tg/ then.

Hmm... in light of old Max Mosley there, perhaps my reference to German Imperial flags at F1 races doesn't help my argument...

He's still less of an arsehole than Bernie Ecclestone.

edit: "donkey-cave" was just too lame...

JHDD- That's a good compromise for iconography. Remember though, if you feel like you need to change the visual image, you might want to change the terminology/names as well. Making something look less Wehrmacht isn't going to matter that much if you're still using the WWII names for everything.

Tangentially, I poked around your photo account, and your stuff looks good. I had wondered what flavor of Eldar you played. How has your Altaioc force done with the newest codex? And those blunt-nosed Defilers and your Hydra conversion all look really good. Nice modelling choices.

Killkrazy- Depends upon where you're buying it. I don't think there's a 20% internet retailer discount available for the former.

@Savnock: Thanks for your comments.

Externally, I'll be using the 40k universe names, so the tank will be a Ragnarok-pattern Hydra or Hellhound, rather than a Flakpanzer or Flammpanzer, respectively.

For the most part, I played as Biel-Tan, but as you can see, I had the models for, and played as "vanilla", Alaitoc, Iyanden, and Ulthwe. Since the new Eldar book came out, I really haven't had much chance to play. I've been more focused on family and building stuff for playing later. But the nice thing about my Eldar is that I've got enough stuff to play as a wide variety of armies.

The Defilers have gone through another round of conversion to strip away the remaining Chaos marks and spikiness. When I get a chance, I'm going to rework the superstructure again to really tighten the design even further. I sometimes wonder if it would have been easier and cheaper to just scratchbuild...

The Hydra conversion was a lot of fun. It actually built up very quickly, though I think I spent a good month picking through my bitz box and working on design sketches.

There are a couple converted Hellhounds that I finished earlier in the year that aren't pictured.

I've got a Basilisk conversion in the works that I really ought to finish - though I'm trying to do actuated hydraulics, so that is the challenge I'm struggling with at the moment.

I ought to get around to uploading some more pictures.If you like the conversions so far, I think you'll definitely like what I've come up for the rest.
____

Uploaded a pic of the Hellhound conversion.

DFo wrote:Hmm... in light of old Max Mosley there, perhaps my reference to German Imperial flags at F1 races doesn't help my argument...

He's still less of an arsehole than Bernie Ecclestone.

edit: "donkey-cave" was just too lame...

Ha Ha!

The site's rude word filter must be American -- I can see your arsehole.

Sorry for going OT.

Any update on your progress there Jon?

Modified Tiger IIs really work well with IG tanker uniforms fyi. They fit almost too well.

Haha, no, no update aside from uploading the Hellhound.

Tiger IIs aren't bad, but they sure aren't 40k...

If you do end up looking for WWII armour kits to convert, Tamiya have an excellent 1:48 line (I understand this scale to be closet to 40K vehicles).

I've built the "early production" Tiger I kit (just wonderful), and have a Sherman on my shelf waiting for attention. They're plastic kits with metal chassis, which give them nice durability and heft - they'd be great on the tabletop.

I want a Wirbelwind real bad.

Shermans might actually match pretty well with 40k, because the design is pretty lame: narrow track, high profile, dodgy suspension.

Yep. Plus the large flat sides are excellent for hooking on home made sponsons.