Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080613/ap_on_re_eu/ireland_eu_referendum;_ylt=AlcfLKOJKvNQVigZukD6eEes0NUE

The Irish have stoped the new EU treaty on its tracks. This part is the one that makes me glow with happiness

Only Ireland put the treaty before the voters at all. The other 26 members are ratifying it through their parliaments, in part fearful of what happened to its predecessor, an even bigger, more ambitious constitution that French and Dutch voters torpedoed in 2005.

Perhaps now the eurocrats will bother explaining things to the 350+ millions citizens of the Union and even, even even, just a little take us into account at the time of making new treaties that will become laws later on. I love the EU concept but I have become disenchanted with the continous trend at Brussels of the 27 making laws to suit goverments rather than the citizens they claim to serve.

So thanks, even if the NO has been manipulated, as 26 countries denied their population their chance to vote, the Irish did it for the rest of us.

M.

Hmmmm.
Well, I gotta say, both campaigns were gak. The Yes side completely failed to communicated what the treaty was about, generally just having a picture of a politician and "Vote Yes". The No side used scaremongering and didn't bring up any of the many valid critisisms of the treaty.
So most people were making up their own minds.

We were also pretty angry that other countries didn't get to vote, because it's undemocratic and because it put so much pressure on us.

What really did it though was being threatened by the French and our own politicians. If there's one thing you can say about the Irish it's that we're contrary bollockses. We don't like anyone telling us what to do. When the french tried it, the overwhelming response was "feth you!". We also don't like our politicians much, and they were trying to get us to vote Yes, which instantly caused suspicion.

Still, I sorta wish we'd voted Yes. The economic and political consequences of this could be pretty large. We're a very pro EU country, but people are gonna spin this into us being anti EU and ungrateful. Which is a pile of gak.

Eire!

I´m really tired of this

What really did it though was being threatened by the French and our own politicians.

There is a saying in Spain that goes something like this "Herders meeting, dead sheep" as always we are the sheeps so when every herder starts saying "You don´t need to voice your opinion as we, your elected offcials, will do it for you" my first thought it´s always "I did not elect you for this"

Also you are going to catch a lot of flak for it especially from the east Europe countries that sold out their citizens in true ye-olde-communist-style and now watch how their bribes (EU structural funding) is threatened. But that´s my point, Merkel does not care about Ireland or Spain (nor should she care of course) and her motives for supporting the new treaty are hers (and perhaps Germany´s too but I doubt it) so I don´t want something that apparently benefits some countries over others to be widely applied so Merkel or Sarkozy or Brown can score a point at home, and from my POV that´s what they were/are going to do.

Now Ireland is going to be the scapegoat of those countries, eg France, GB, were the population was so hostile to this treaty that the goverment did not dare to take it to an open ballot. But I´m really glad you did it. When my goverment, or any other, wants to change my Constitution using a backdoor to fit the EU treaties instead of the right way (referedum or any other established method to reform the laws) we are no longer living in a democracy. And the EU is very, very guilty of that.

M.

BTW: Economic consecuences? my ass, that´s Brussels saying that for being truthful to your Constitutional rights they are going to punish you. Do they realize that doing this they turn more and more people into euroesceptics?

I find the whole thing fascinating.

It's the American Revolution and the Constitutional Congress all over again.

In real time.

In my lifetime.

Amazing, really.

I call blind selfserving idiocy.
For years they received economic boosts from the EU, subsidising roads, infrastructure, agriculture, but when it's time to give back some of that support people just turn blind to what it's meant for them in the past and only look at what it can offer them in the furute.

Your POV. Mine as stated is that the Irish showed the eurocrats that building an Union without their citizens is doomed to fail.

M.

I voted yes, but I could see the arguments for voting No. There are a good few.
But I'm sorry, the gratitude argument annoys the gak out of me. I wasn't aware that by accepting money from the EU we were selling our democracy and promising to go along with whatever they asked.
This treaty was not about being anti or pro EU. It was about being anti or pro Lisbon treaty. You can muddy the water with irrelevant issues all you want, that is sophistry.
We sacrificed a large amount of our fisheries to the EU and nowadays we're a net contributer (13% of coastal waters, less than 5% of quotas. Fun!). Per capita, we're the biggest. (Of course that means little due to our small population.)
If you want to call loyalty and gratitude on us, please remember the Marshall plan which rebuilt most of continental Europe post world war two. Does that mean you should always agree with the US government out of gratitude, or that the Americans have a right to try and influence democracy in your country, or complain about your democratic decisions?
Because if not, I call blind hypocrisy on you.
And this is from a very pro EU Yes voter.

Do you feel that the French and Dutch had more right to say no to the constitution? Did you feel that they should be left out of the EU? Was there any suggestion that they should hold the referendum again? I don't remember. It's funny, cos I thought it wasn't about whether you were a big or small country. Edit to add: Ireland was instrumental in getting the constitution through, but I don't remember us complaining when it was defeated.
If you have a counter argument I'd love to hear it.

Da Boss wrote:
If you want to call loyalty and gratitude on us, please remember the Marshall plan which rebuilt most of continental Europe post world war two. Does that mean you should always agree with the US government out of gratitude, or that the Americans have a right to try and influence democracy in your country, or complain about your democratic decisions?
Because if not, I call blind hypocrisy on you.
And this is from a very pro EU Yes voter.

Er...yes?
If you just did what we say everything would go much more smoothly.


So what happens now? Is it like light rail where, if the bureaucrats lose this year, they just keep re-proposing the same tired thing year after year (but with a slight twist to make us think its different) until enough fools pass it?
Mayhaps Ireland needs to get uppity and just take over the rest of Europe. Everyone else had a shot why not? Absent certain East European countries (not counting the UK and the military powerhouse that is Lichtenstein ) who's going to put up a fight? I mean come on a bar full of drunken Irish could take Canada, so maybe three bars full to take Western Europe?

unless the Irish win of course then its

Oh, probably they´ll try. The point of referendums is that you keep making them until the population votes yes, then the issue is shettled for good.

Some countries are very sore with the Irish NO and will try to blackmail the Irish goverment into some kind of backroom deal to say yes if only because their populations are already restless due to not having a say in the Lisbon Treaty. E.G. Mr Gordon of the neighbouring country, that wanted to skip this "little" problem ASAP so his flagging popularity did not take a bigger dip among the usually eurosceptic english population. But now he is in a vise, to backtrack and call a referendum is harmful but to continue and hold a parlamentarian vote only could be worse.

Sarkosy, with the French ratification over via parlament, is also on hot ground, the French voted NO last time and now they are going to ask why they did not get to vote the EU Constitution they defeated with a new cover, so he is not happy.

Last, the East Europe countries, their politicians were day dreaming with them being awash with funds from Brussels, they want to be the most "european of the europeans" (if only to get more money) and the Irish refusal to Lisbon could in some cases threaten those funds, so again no lost love here for the Irish, even if the NO was the right choice.

I will close with some words from an EU parlament member that while lamenting the Irish NO commented: If democracy in the EU is that the citizens can vote everything but NO in a referendum then perhaps we should scratch the EU because that´s not democracy.

M.

More reason for Ireland to join with Scotland in achieving pure independence from the commonwealth/crown.

jfrazell wrote:
So what happens now? Is it like light rail where, if the bureaucrats lose this year, they just keep re-proposing the same tired thing year after year (but with a slight twist to make us think its different) until enough fools pass it?

Yes, exactly this. But no-one will notice as "sophisticated" Europeans are too busy laughing at how "dumb" americans are in their recent choice of leaders*whilst ignoring completely equally monstrous and stupid follies happenning in their own back yards. This being despite the fact the Americans can, have and are changing their situation and can and have prosecuted their leaders in court.



* That said Sarkozy's missus is pretty hot so he got that right.

I have a better idea. Ireland should join Nafta.

Maple syrup & Molson +
Pizza & Jack Daniels +
Tecquila & Fajitas +
Irish Whiskey =
Ultimate WIN!

VermGho5t - ???

Ireland gained independence in the 1920's and is not a commonwealth country. Northern Ireland (which is a territory, not a nation) is split between people who want to be part of the UK, people who want to be part of Ireland and people who want complete independence from both. As it stands it is part of the UK.
Scotland has shared a monarch with England since 1601, but they were 2 separate nations until the act of union which formed Great Britain as a political union of the two realms. If Scotland were to become independent, Great Britain (and therefore the UK of which GB is part) would cease to exist.
The UK is primus inter pares in the Commonwealth, given that HM the Queen is still head of state of many commonwealth nations. If Scotland opted for political independence whilst retaining the Queen as head of state, Scotland would still be part of the Commonwealth.

I fail to see any connection between Ireland and Scotland in this (save for a few sectarian scumbags in Glasgow who seem to think the Old Firm derby is an excuse to continue the Northern Ireland troubles by proxy).
I also fail to see any connection between the Scottish Independence movement and an Irish EU referendum.

Can you enlighten me please???