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have you seen the new set its worth $260 dollers in minis they have pics at http://www.belloflostsouls.blogspot.com



IT IS GOING TO BE ONLY $69.99

Hmm, I think my ancients assault force shall become alot more affordable...

its up to 70 now?
it seems that every time i see this thing it's more expensive.
it started at "its only 50!"
has anyone confirmed if it's a full blown mini rule book?

yes it comes with a mini rulebook that is the main reson why i am geting it

But that calculation of total value doesn't take into account that they're cheaper models. I almost gaged when I saw the Dread that comes in a front and back half.

@spartan - word on the street is that it is a mini rulebook that only supports a quickstart version of the rules, it is not the full version of the rules minus the fluff and art like previously rumoured.

but those dreads are going to go for like a dime a dozen. Mmmm, conversion fodder.

The dread is definitely going to make this go fast, especially if it accepts "real" dread weapon mounts.

Not by the looks of it. you could assemble it then hack it apart and ad little plasicard nubs though.

No full-rules mini rulebook? Why would they backtrack from one of the greatest things since sliced bread. Nothing better than having that little book spiral-bound and lying flat on the table ready to support your rules arguements.

No way they're going to make a lesser version that the one that came with BfM. In 5th Ed., of course.

usernamesareannoying wrote:@spartan - word on the street is that it is a mini rulebook that only supports a quickstart version of the rules, it is not the full version of the rules minus the fluff and art like previously rumoured.

Actually, the NEW word on the street from a few higher ups in the rumour mongering biz is that it will have the full rules, minus any advanced scenarios, etc. it will contain the quick start rules and quick start scenario booklet. Just like last edition.

Le Grognard wrote:No full-rules mini rulebook? Why would they backtrack from one of the greatest things since sliced bread.

Actually, it was one of the stupidest marketing decisions GW has ever made. B4M and B4SP would have sold regardless of the rulebook because the minis value was really good. People bought multiple starters just for the minis. So throwing in rulebooks was a huge mistake, because suddenly, there are loads of no-value rulebooks floating around that cannibalize and supress sales of the full rulebook.

GW got a *lot* smarter by staggering the releases so that players cannot get the mini-rulebook at the release of 5th Edition. Even better, they enhance the Rulebook release with special Gamers and Collector's editions. And any mini-rulebook simply won't be available for a few months, so if you want a rulebook at release, you *must* buy the full-priced Rulebook with all of the Fluff and Hobby materials. This forces players to get the GW "party line" on Fluff and Hobby in addition to Rules and Models, and is an excellent change from a philosophical standpoint. This seeds things so that players may reasonably assume that all 5th Edition players have the large rulebook, forcing the "correct" de facto gaming environment.

If GW really has learned anything from B4M, the mini-book will be as dumbed-down and stripped-down as possible, with no reference to anything outside the boxed set. The new starter set will still be an excellent deal from a miniatures per dollar standpoint, and will sell nicely for that reason alone. But there is NO reason for GW to include rules that cannibalize sales of the main rulebook. Indeed, it would be utter stupidity for them to make that same mistake again.

Of course, this *is* GW we're talking about, so most likely some slow green-lighted a full ruleset for the starter set...

I have to disagree. I look at it this way...

Bob and his buddy buy the "dumbed-down" box set. They buy all the paints, and are so interested and enthralled that they even buy some extra figs and the codex for thier armies!
They put together their mini's, paint 'em up and are having a blast playing with the "dumbed-down" rules. They are having such a good time in fact, that they decide to bring their stuff back to the shop and have a go at a few games with the locals.
But wait, what is this "running" that the other player is doing?
Everyone doesn't hit/ wound on 4+?!
Egads! My mighty Space Marine doesn't get a save when he gets shot by your.....what did you call it, "lays-cannon"?! I thought you were talking about a tasty snack!
Oh, I see...I have to buy this $60 rulebook if I want to play with the big boys. Well, we'll just keep playing with the rules we have (we've already spent well over $100) becuase I can either buy the book or more of these super cool figs. Oh, you only got the box set too? Well, let's just hang out and play with the rules we have.

Not to mention, when 4th Ed came out a whole lot of people not only bought the BFM box set (which got them a full rulebook) but they ALSO bought the BBB as well.

Sure, some people only buy one or the other. Not everyone is going to pony up for a full size book, but then again not everyone wants some Marines and Orks either.....

I think it makes sense that GW wants people to buy the full rulebook, and that's probably why they're staggering the release of the starter set. there is a value to a full rules mini-book, however. Tournament gamers love the little things! I like being able to put it in my army transport or in my box of supplies, and not have to carry around a large hardback book.

I'm not sure a need for a protable rulebook made anybody buy BfM (as opposed to just picking up the rulebook off of the warstore, eBay, or a friend), but even in the secondary market they were selling for $15-20, which shows that there is a demand.

mattyboy22 wrote:I have to disagree. I look at it this way...

Bob and his buddy buy the "dumbed-down" box set. They buy all the paints, and are so interested and enthralled that they even buy some extra figs and the codex for thier armies!
They put together their mini's, paint 'em up and are having a blast playing with the "dumbed-down" rules. They are having such a good time in fact, that they decide to bring their stuff back to the shop and have a go at a few games with the locals.
But wait, what is this "running" that the other player is doing?
Everyone doesn't hit/ wound on 4+?!
Egads! My mighty Space Marine doesn't get a save when he gets shot by your.....what did you call it, "lays-cannon"?! I thought you were talking about a tasty snack!
Oh, I see...I have to buy this $60 rulebook if I want to play with the big boys. Well, we'll just keep playing with the rules we have (we've already spent well over $100) becuase I can either buy the book or more of these super cool figs. Oh, you only got the box set too? Well, let's just hang out and play with the rules we have.

Not to mention, when 4th Ed came out a whole lot of people not only bought the BFM box set (which got them a full rulebook) but they ALSO bought the BBB as well.

Sure, some people only buy one or the other. Not everyone is going to pony up for a full size book, but then again not everyone wants some Marines and Orks either.....

The rumors about a dumbed down book state that it will have everything relavent to the models in the set. So it will have the "everything hits and wounds on a 4+" starter missions, AS WELL AS full rules for running, vehicles (not tanks), walkers, ICs, skimmers (for the koptas), etc..
But will be missing things like transport rules, tank shock, etc..

Its not that much you're missing, so I'm going to agree with JohnHwangDD, its a win/win for stores, and GW since they've stated "We're loosing $2 USD with every box sold."

But really, what rules wouldn't be included in the starter set? Tanks and mission special rules? At that point I just ask someone who has a rulebook to take a look at those sections and you're set. It's not like the rules are overly complicated. The reference sheets (which are free) have most of the vehicle stuff on there anyway. Might as well just put it all in the mini rulebook at that point....

I wish more people starting the game would purchase the big book before the little one.
The biggest discussions I have with new gamers are:
1) Do I have to paint my marine blue?
2) How do I build a list?
3) I can't paint like that why should I bother?
The 5th book discusses each of these in turn which makes it perfect for starters.

mattyboy22 wrote:I have to disagree.

Bob and his buddy buy the "dumbed-down" box set. They buy all the paints, and are so interested and enthralled that they even buy some extra figs and the codex for thier armies!

Oh, I see...I have to buy this $60 rulebook if I want to play with the big boys. Well, we'll just keep playing with the rules we have (we've already spent well over $100) becuase I can either buy the book or more of these super cool figs. Oh, you only got the box set too? Well, let's just hang out and play with the rules we have.

Not to mention, when 4th Ed came out a whole lot of people not only bought the BFM box set (which got them a full rulebook) but they ALSO bought the BBB as well.

Disagreement is what makes Dakka an interesting place.

If GW does it right, most of the extra figs and cool stuff in the Codex simply won't be playable without buying the Big Boy Book. So, for example, if Bob wants to use his Assault Marines as anything other than foot Infantry, he's going to have to pony up for the BBB, because there aren't any rules for Jump Infantry in the starter book. Similarly, if his buddy wants to field that awesome cool Battlewagon, he's going to need the BBB, because he's going to need the Tank and Transport rules.

The problem is that some 4E players didn't buy the BBB, and that's a problem that GW should be making every effort possible to rectify.

Polonius wrote:I think it makes sense that GW wants people to buy the full rulebook, and that's probably why they're staggering the release of the starter set.

there is a value to a full rules mini-book, however. Tournament gamers love the little things! I like being able to put it in my army transport or in my box of supplies, and not have to carry around a large hardback book.

I'm not sure a need for a protable rulebook made anybody buy BfM (as opposed to just picking up the rulebook off of the warstore, eBay, or a friend), but even in the secondary market they were selling for $15-20, which shows that there is a demand.

There is tremendous Hobby value in forcing every 40k player to buy the big rulebook, because it inculcates Fluff and Modeling as equally important gaming concepts. Allowing players to skate by with just the rules and minis doesn't build and support the sort of community that GW desires.

The very fact that the mini rulebook supports Tournament play to the exclusion of friendly / creative play is all the more reason for GW to nuke it as a viable option.

That said, GW could (and should) create a reduced-profile slimline, spiralbound Tournament Rulebook that has the core rules along with treatises on Sportsmanship and Composition, along with Painting standards. In particular, they should provide Appendix "sample" scoring that heavily weights Sports, Comp, and Painting over Battle. Assume a bit on Red Flag offenses (non-aggression turtling, profanity, cheating) that automatically lead to game loss / ejection. Once GW publishes this as an example, it becomes the de facto gold standard that practically forces *all* players to play the GW way at tournaments. Sure, a local TO can choose to do something different from the sample, but the onus would be on them to explain *why* they're deviating from standard.

Nobody wanting a portable rulebook bought BfM, as the secondary cost of the rulebook was free or heavily reduced below the BBB and B4M prices.

Besides, everybody seems like they want the new starter set for the minis anyways. So why allow them to have complete rules as a bonus?

mattyboy22 wrote:But really, what rules wouldn't be included in the starter set? Tanks and mission special rules?

At that point I just ask someone who has a rulebook to take a look at those sections and you're set. It's not like the rules are overly complicated.

The reference sheets (which are free) have most of the vehicle stuff on there anyway. Might as well just put it all in the mini rulebook at that point....

At a minimum, GW can completely delete the sections on Bikers, Jump Infantry, Swarms, Tanks, and Transports, along with Ramming, Ordnance and Psykers. Most of the USRs can be dropped as well. GW can probably cut the page count down by 25%.

If GW does a proper job of ripping out all unnecessary content, you'll have so many questions so often that the other guy is going to tell you to stop bothering him and buy your own rulebook.

Really, though, I don't know why you think GW should include a full rulebook in the starter box. After all, everybody's darling, Privater Press, only included quickstart rules with their starters, forcing everybody to buy Prime for the real rules. If PP can do no wrong, how can anyone claim GW is letting them down by following PP's good example?

I'm not sure if I agree with you, JohnHwangDD. I mean, your points are valid enough, but I think that you're overlooking the fact that GW gets a much better margin on minis than they do on the rulebooks. My opinion is that they're trying to making the big book as attractive as possible (with new fluff, pictures, etc.) so that people will buy it, even if there is a cheaper alternative. If so, I'm afraid that it's working in my case!

Personally I think a simplified rulebook for the starter set is both a good idea, and a bad idea.

Good Idea: Definitely helps make it easier to break into the rules. I've come to find the hugeness of the BBB leads many to believe this game is needlessly complicated (Well.. MORE needlessly complicated than it actually is) and you'd need a law degree to play it. This little 'stepping stone' would be perfect to help people grasp the rules fully.

Bad Idea: Kids and Less-Than-Sharp adults will have problems, and continue to have problems, grasping the more 'advanced' rules that aren't in the first book. I can see this being an issue the entire lifetime of the edition really. The 'little-known rule' scenario will become RAMPANT, annoying, and lead to many rules arguements followed by looking things up in a huff. Then being called a Rules Lawyer for remembing said 'obscure' rule... :S

Good Idea: Allows them to produce a 2nd 'full' rule book, in addition to the BBB, which can be smaller, spiral bound, and easier to carry. Like JohnHwang suggested, a tournament version. People will buy this for convenience and the BBB for all the goodness it provides in the way of hobbying material, fluff, and special scenarios. As was already mentioned in this thread, the BfM book is sold on eBay regularly for 15-20$. There is a market for this.

Bad Idea: May really turn off some new comers. There'd be nothing more annoying than just getting into the game and then when you're ready to play, you know, a REAL game they tell you "Great! All you need is to buy twice the amount of minis you have AND shell out $50 for a rulebook! Yes I know you have a rulebook, but that book is useless! SUCKER!"

Good Idea: Throwing a surprise party for your Dad.

Bad Idea: Throwing a surprise party for your Grandad.

This has been Good Idea, Bad Idea.

Pariah Press wrote: I'm not sure if I agree with you, JohnHwangDD. I mean, your points are valid enough, but I think that you're overlooking the fact that GW gets a much better margin on minis than they do on the rulebooks.

My opinion is that they're trying to making the big book as attractive as possible (with new fluff, pictures, etc.) so that people will buy it, even if there is a cheaper alternative. If so, I'm afraid that it's working in my case!

Oh, I've never overlooked the notion that GW makes more on minis sets, particularly the smaller sets. But in a bulk set like B4M / B4SP, GW makes very little on them. Indeed, GW probably sells them at cost. Including a rules-complete rulebook exacerbates the problem with a more complex product that requires more printing and is (slightly) heavier to ship.

Plus, it has the distinct disadvantage of confusing the issue of focusing the starter set on the core, fundamental learning points that are necessary for n00bz. For example, in the starter set, there are exactly 2 kinds of Infantry: units and ICs. This is a very simple distinction that is crystal clear to a n00b. Having more special rules to complicate things with Jump Infantry, Bikers, Jetbikers, Cavalry really isn't necessary. Same thing with adding Psyker and USRs. From a teaching standpoint, the less GW includes, the easier it is to teach.

By analogy, when you're first teaching a kid to speak, having Webster's Unabridged Collegiate Dictionary is overkill compared to having the alphabet written down in big block letters. It's same way with the BBB and a stripped-down teaching ruleset.

As for wanting the buy the BBB, GW should be *forcing* players to buy it by denying them the choice to do anything else. The starter rules can be made deliberately incomplete to the point of being useless for regular gaming. Removing the possibility of a cheaper ruleset solves the problem entirely.

AlexCage wrote:Bad Idea: Kids and Less-Than-Sharp adults will have problems, and continue to have problems, grasping the more 'advanced' rules that aren't in the first book.

Good Idea: Allows them to produce a 2nd 'full' rule book, in addition to the BBB, which can be smaller, spiral bound, and easier to carry. Like JohnHwang suggested, a tournament version. People will buy this for convenience and the BBB for all the goodness it provides in the way of hobbying material, fluff, and special scenarios. As was already mentioned in this thread, the BfM book is sold on eBay regularly for 15-20$. There is a market for this.

Bad Idea: when you're ready to play, you know, a REAL game they tell you "Great! All you need is to buy twice the amount of minis you have AND shell out $50 for a rulebook!

Dim bulbs will have problems, regardless. The mini rules at least lets them participate at some level, in the same sort of way as the Special Olympics supports the mentally handicapped.

Um, if GW does it right, that Small Tournament Rulebook will cost at least $40 USD and exist as a companion book to the BBB:
BBB Rules == STR Rules & Sports
BBB Fluff & Collecting => STR Comp
BBB Hobby => STR Painting standards
In other words, the BBB gives the basic guidelines, and STR defines the ideal goal to be measured against. If GW are *really* clever, they provide FAQ/Erratta in fine print as Appendices, and give the book a life of no more than a year or two, allowing them to convert Tournament play into a recurring subscription service.

The GW Hobby has never been anything but a luxury product. Besides, the Quickstart followed by Rukebook worked just fin for WM.

I don't think it really builds goodwill to sell people half a ruleset, and tell them in order to play the full game they've got to splash out on a honking great big $60 book that's mostly fluff. Sure, you'd sell a few extra rulebooks but you'd also piss of a lot of kids and lose their long term business... and a full army brings in a lot more money than a rulebook.

Sell the boxed set with crazy value models and the full rules and get new players into the game. And sell a great big book that's got the same rules but has also got optional scenarios, cool art and lots of setting details and hobby advice, and make that book impressive enough that new players will want that even though they've already the normal rules.

Which is basically what GW has done. Add in a twist that you can get the hardcore tournament players to buy the rulebook by staggering the release, and you're golden.

Well said Sebster.

Iwill buy the 'Big Boys' version, cause I have heaps of figs, and don't really need anymore for the near while anyways..

However I think the concept of a 'Deluxe' version of the rules is insulting to me and all other Hobbbists alike.

Should your knowledge of a ruleset be deliniated by dollars outlaid? I think to say so is pure profiteering.

And based on previous GW 'Binding' issues-I wouldn't want to use mine(Big Boys Book) the way I use my Little B4m book

-it would be trashed in a Month!!!!

I'll be honest here, GW got this spot on with BfM/BfSP and I'm sure they'll continue with 40k5.

Think about it - If you're starting out, you get the box with full rules. You're happy because you can play anybody and have loads of minis. If you're a vet, you can get a shiny BGB with full rules and new fluff without dumping another 60-odd minis on your already heaving painting table!

For both people the option is there of getting the other product (for whatever reason) but no-one is forced to get it.

Result? Newbies know that when they play a vet, that person won't be able to pull the 'obscure-rule-from-the-back-of-the-BGB' that means they lose. Vets aren't forced to get a load of minis they may not actually want just to get a rulebook.

Everyone wins!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Actually, it was one of the stupidest marketing decisions GW has ever made. B4M and B4SP would have sold regardless of the rulebook because the minis value was really good. People bought multiple starters just for the minis. So throwing in rulebooks was a huge mistake, because suddenly, there are loads of no-value rulebooks floating around that cannibalize and supress sales of the full rulebook.

This is one of those rare times where John is right on the money. All the A5 rulebook did was make it so there was no real need to buy the full rulebook. The A5 rulebook was handy, useful, convinient, and perfect for gaming use and for bringing to tournaments. It was also equally effective at killing sales of the much-more-expensive rulebook. In the end you just have GW stores that can't move the old stock. Vets buy the starter kit for the tiny rulebook and a good deal - by GW standards - on models, and 8-year-olds get their parents to buy the starter kit 'cause it's the starter kit, and FLGS that won't order in more rulebooks as they've never sold the ones they had (but they need heaps more Battle for McDonald's boxes, as everyone loves them).

It certainly wasn't the stupidest decision GW has ever made ('generic daemons' weighs in higher on the ladder), but it was certainly a situation of them doing something without really thinking about the consequences.

BYE

Im sick of there always being space marines in the starter packs! whats wrong with dark eldar or necrons? nids or eldar? tau or chaos?

i'm sick of 3 out opf 5 newbees turning marine. yes marines are fun but when you rock up to battle people and theres 12 marine armies and 2 others is rather annoying.

Squig_herder wrote:Im sick of there always being space marines in the starter packs! whats wrong with dark eldar or necrons? nids or eldar? tau or chaos?

i'm sick of 3 out opf 5 newbees turning marine. yes marines are fun but when you rock up to battle people and theres 12 marine armies and 2 others is rather annoying.

I agree, and I play Marines! They should rotate the included armies in the starter box sets, they should also make starter versions for every army.

Squig_herder wrote:whats wrong with dark eldar or necrons? nids or eldar? tau or chaos?

Space Marines outsell Warhammer.

They'd be stupid not to put them in the starter set.

BYE

sebster wrote:I don't think it really builds goodwill to sell people half a ruleset,

Why should people be upset? It's the starter rules for the starter set. It's not the rules for the full game. It's not like there's some kind of secret conspiracy to advertise it as something that it isn't.

Do people get upset when their econobox doesn't have all the power and features of a full-size SUV?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Actually, it was one of the stupidest marketing decisions GW has ever made.

It certainly wasn't the stupidest decision GW has ever made ('generic daemons' weighs in higher on the ladder), but it was certainly a situation of them doing something without really thinking about the consequences.

Um, just to be clear, "one of the stupidest marketing decisions" means there were many other stupid decisions made, and not just in marketing.
[/pedantic]

H.B.M.C. wrote:Space Marines outsell Warhammer.

Can you cite this information? I can't find anything that detailed in their annual report.