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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 16:15:48
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
landmark change in view
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080626/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_guns
Supreme Court says Americans have right to guns
By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer 1 minute ago
The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that Americans have a right to own guns for self-defense and hunting, the justices' first major pronouncement on gun rights in U.S. history.
The court's 5-4 ruling struck down the District of Columbia's 32-year-old ban on handguns as incompatible with gun rights under the Second Amendment. The decision went further than even the Bush administration wanted, but probably leaves most firearms laws intact.
The court had not conclusively interpreted the Second Amendment since its ratification in 1791. The amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
The basic issue for the justices was whether the amendment protects an individual's right to own guns no matter what, or whether that right is somehow tied to service in a state militia.
Writing for the majority, Justice Antonin Scalia said that an individual right to bear arms is supported by "the historical narrative" both before and after the Second Amendment was adopted.
The Constitution does not permit "the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home," Scalia said. The court also struck down Washington's requirement that firearms be equipped with trigger locks or kept disassembled, but left intact the licensing of guns.
In a dissent he summarized from the bench, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that the majority "would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons."
He said such evidence "is nowhere to be found."
Justice Stephen Breyer wrote a separate dissent in which he said, "In my view, there simply is no untouchable constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to keep loaded handguns in the house in crime-ridden urban areas."
Joining Scalia were Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy and Clarence Thomas. The other dissenters were Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter.
Gun rights supporters hailed the decision. "I consider this the opening salvo in a step-by-step process of providing relief for law-abiding Americans everywhere that have been deprived of this freedom," said Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association.
The NRA will file lawsuits in San Francisco, Chicago and several of its suburbs challenging handgun restrictions there based on Thursday's outcome.
The capital's gun law was among the nation's strictest.
Dick Anthony Heller, 66, an armed security guard, sued the District after it rejected his application to keep a handgun at his home for protection in the same Capitol Hill neighborhood as the court.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia ruled in Heller's favor and struck down Washington's handgun ban, saying the Constitution guarantees Americans the right to own guns and that a total prohibition on handguns is not compatible with that right.
The issue caused a split within the Bush administration. Vice President Dick Cheney supported the appeals court ruling, but others in the administration feared it could lead to the undoing of other gun regulations, including a federal law restricting sales of machine guns. Other laws keep felons from buying guns and provide for an instant background check.
Scalia said nothing in Thursday's ruling should "cast doubt on long-standing prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons or the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings."
In a concluding paragraph to the his 64-page opinion, Scalia said the justices in the majority "are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country" and believe the Constitution "leaves the District of Columbia a variety of tools for combating that problem, including some measures regulating handguns."
The law adopted by Washington's city council in 1976 bars residents from owning handguns unless they had one before the law took effect. Shotguns and rifles may be kept in homes, if they are registered, kept unloaded and either disassembled or equipped with trigger locks.
Opponents of the law have said it prevents residents from defending themselves. The Washington government says no one would be prosecuted for a gun law violation in cases of self-defense.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 16:36:53
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
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About damn time  stupid gun laws the only people a gun law hurts is the law abiding citizens not the bad guys
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The hardiest steel is forged in battle and cooled with blood of your foes.
vet. from 88th Grenadiers
1K Sons 7-5-4
110th PDF so many battle now sitting on a shelf
88th Grenadiers PAF(planet Assault Force)
waiting on me to get back
New army:
Orks and goblins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 16:47:50
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Interesting, I wasn't aware it had never been challenged in court in that way. I also wasn't aware there were areas in the US that had handgun bans (barring the obvious).
It does seem that gun control would be difficult to set up in the US nowadays, but I'm glad to live in a place that never had loose gun laws to start with.
Different strokes for different folks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 16:49:48
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Remember-guns don't kill people. Husbands that come home early kill people...
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 16:57:53
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Heh heh.
Well, even with strict gun control you can still end up with gun crime. And syringe crime. Yay. Some junkie stabs ya with a syringe full of infected blood. Quite common over here in places. I'd rather be shot.
(Well, not really since the chances of infection for HIV is quite low. Still, any of the hep viruses are pretty tough and therefore easily communicable.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 16:57:53
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Something isn't right here. I know that the court has had to rule on second amendment issues before, though it has been many many years. This isn't the first time. Though "major" decision may be the grey area the author is dancing in.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 17:00:10
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Ahtman wrote:Something isn't right here. I know that the court has had to rule on second amendment issues before, though it has been many many years. This isn't the first time. Though "major" decision may be the grey area the author is dancing in.
It is the first time SCOTUS found that the 2nd Amendment means what it says it means - the right of individual citizens to own firearms.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 17:47:30
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Ahtman wrote:Something isn't right here. I know that the court has had to rule on second amendment issues before, though it has been many many years. This isn't the first time. Though "major" decision may be the grey area the author is dancing in.
Past SCOTUS jurisprudence has focused on tangential issues of the 2nd Amendment, most famously the question of whether or not a sawed-off shotgun is a weapon necessary for the "preservation or efficiency of well-regulated militia," and perhaps most recently the definition of the word "carries" in firearms statutes. As jfrazell points out, it had not previously addressed the question of the degree to which the 2nd Amendment constitutes an individual right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/26 23:01:41
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..
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We had our guns taken off us here in Oz back in 1996 when a nutter went and shot a whole pile of people.
Travelling through the US last year for some reason at airports discussion with USAans in the line always ended up being about the right to bear arms and they were flabbergasted that we don't have ready access to firearms and we were a littl eoffset at how much people love their firearms.
A couple on our bus tour from Oklahoma city have a pistol in every room including the toilet! Now I know that is pretty far edge extreme but I guess if someone bursts in on you whilst you are taking a dump you want to be prepared...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 00:10:49
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Crafty Bray Shaman
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Posting some of the excerpts from the Heller case, as I am a gun owner and hunter, and this ruling was important and interesting to me. What is more disturbing to me is that it wasn't a 9-0 vote, and that the Liberal judges embraced the old militia rationalization without recognizing the need and requirement of having the inherent right to self defense. Also, it is very good to read that the ruling also went as far to say limitations to storage and ammunition (I think) type was unconstitutional as well.
Excerpts from Thursday's 5-4 Supreme Court decision striking down the District of Columbia's ban on handguns.
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Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority:
"As the quotations earlier in this opinion demonstrate, the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right. The handgun ban amounts to a prohibition of an entire class of 'arms' that is overwhelmingly chosen by American society for that lawful purpose. The prohibition extends, moreover, to the home, where the need for defense of self, family and property is most acute. Under any of the standards of scrutiny that we have applied to enumerated constitutional rights, banning from the home 'the most preferred firearm in the nation to keep and use for protection of one's home and family,' would fail constitutional muster."
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Scalia, on the requirement that handguns be kept inoperable:
"We must also address the District's requirement (as applied to respondent's handgun) that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times. This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional."
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Scalia, on the scope of the ruling:
"Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."
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Scalia's concluding remarks:
"Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of the nation, where well-trained police forces provide personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct."
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Justice John Paul Stevens, in dissent:
"Until today, it has been understood that legislatures may regulate the civilian use and misuse of firearms so long as they do not interfere with the preservation of a well-regulated militia. The Court's announcement of a new constitutional right to own and use firearms for private purposes upsets that settled understanding, but leaves for future cases the formidable task of defining the scope of permissible regulations."
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Justice Stephen Breyer, in dissent:
"The majority's conclusion is wrong for two independent reasons. The first reason is that set forth by Justice Stevens — namely, that the Second Amendment protects militia-related, not self-defense-related, interests. These two interests are sometimes intertwined. To assure 18th-century citizens that they could keep arms for militia purposes would necessarily have allowed them to keep arms that they could have used for self-defense as well. But, self-defense alone, detached from any militia-related objective, is not the Amendment's concern.
"The second independent reason is that the protection the Amendment provides is not absolute. The Amendment permits government to regulate the interests that it serves."
*edit* my mistake it was limitations to the storage of a weapon in order to use it that was ruled as unconstitutional.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/06/27 00:12:16
Jean-luke Pee-card, of thee YOU ES ES Enter-prize
Make it so!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 02:22:27
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Well the dissent argument held sway through the 18th and 19th century, and much of the early 20th, so it isn't that unbelievable that some people would think that.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 04:14:47
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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How does this affect my right to Bear arms?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 04:27:27
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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I don't think the ruling is really all that big a deal, to be honest. Ruling that there is a right to bear arms is a pretty plain text reading, to be honest. It makes no comment on the regulation and control schemes of other states and municipalities, or on how onerous those schemes can be.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 06:19:11
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
Murfreesboro, TN
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This is judicial legislation. When considering a law, you have to consider it in the timeframe it was written, not current events. When the 2nd Amendment was framed, it concerned retaining firearms to serve as militia when the colony/state was threatened. There is nothing in the Amendment concerning personal protection; those laws have been developed by the states and local authorities over time by those who are permitted, by law, to make new law: the legislatures. How strange, that those who decry judicial activism are silent when that activism benefits them.
If people want self-defense and home-defense-weaponry enshrined in the Constitution, they should work toward an Amendment to that effect. And I don't care who you are; you don't need an automatic weapon to defend your house. If you need full-auto to hit a target, you are a threat to yourself and your loved ones, not a home-defender.
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As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 06:51:21
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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lord_sutekh wrote:This is judicial legislation. When considering a law, you have to consider it in the timeframe it was written, not current events. When the 2nd Amendment was framed, it concerned retaining firearms to serve as militia when the colony/state was threatened. There is nothing in the Amendment concerning personal protection; those laws have been developed by the states and local authorities over time by those who are permitted, by law, to make new law: the legislatures. How strange, that those who decry judicial activism are silent when that activism benefits them.
If people want self-defense and home-defense-weaponry enshrined in the Constitution, they should work toward an Amendment to that effect. And I don't care who you are; you don't need an automatic weapon to defend your house. If you need full-auto to hit a target, you are a threat to yourself and your loved ones, not a home-defender.
The ruling in the case is that while the 2nd amendment mentions a well regulated militia, there is nothing saying this is the only reason, or even the most important reason for the ownership of weapons. So by the interpretation of this court, the reason for the weapon is not the key, the right itself is paramount.
And I’m not sure why you’re talking about fully auto weapons. This case was about DC’s ban on handguns.
I agree about the cries of judicial activism. Watch the right swing around to celebrate the constitution as they lose power in the next election, while the left starts complaining about judges over ruling the will of the people.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 08:37:46
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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I think Activist Judge, if looked up in th dictionary, is described as "a judge who made a ruling you disagree with".
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 09:28:01
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Crafty Bray Shaman
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There's a post on this forum for a flight sim I play that has a good sort of summarization of the ruling, found here. It's a bit long (4 pages) but highlights the realities of the ruling, the judges opinion towards his coleagues, and some of the other people's opinions of it.
As far as automatic weapons being used for home defense, lord_sutekh you're jumping to conclusions as there has been an automatic weapon ban in place since the 20's or 30's after all the organized crime in midwest/eastern cities. If you read the excerpts from Scalia in a few posts above he mentions firearms that in common usage.
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Jean-luke Pee-card, of thee YOU ES ES Enter-prize
Make it so!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 09:34:39
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Thats...that's quite a forum there. I especially liked this:
I don't recall electing Breyer to legislate from the bench on issues beyond the scope of Constitutionality.
If the board owner gets paid every time someone says activist judge, he's going to have a good month it seems.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 10:47:42
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Ahtman wrote:Thats...that's quite a forum there.
Whole pile of lulz, I especially liked I often wonder if the anti-gun crowd ever pondered the fact that an additional reason most enemy army's may shy away from attacking the us...is the fact that we have such a well armed citizenry. no doubt that has to be a legit concern...and no doubt...that sheds light on the forward thinking of our founding fathers.
almost fell off of my chair laughing at that gem. I'm sure that whole massive number of countries queuing up to invade the USA are having second thoughts even as we speak.
Thought that Mr. Guppy35 seemed to speak a whole lot of sense there though.
From the linked articles and opinions it would seem that the correct decision was made from a legalistic point of view ( that being the point of course).
But as an outsider : It really is a real mystery why you septics get so obsessed with guns, really don't get it. I suppose part of it is we don't hear "good" or "postive" stories relating to gun ownership-- I guess it might be hard to actual prove such tales either way. We tend just to hear stories like this tale of woe but I guess that says more about individual stupidity than anything else possibly.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 10:50:18
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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lord_sutekh wrote:This is judicial legislation.
Actually, supporting the ban would be judicial legislation, since the ban is unconstitutional.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 12:08:21
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Exactly.
This impacts other rights. If you affirm "the people" as not being everyday citizens, then most of the Bill of Rights is meaningless. It also strains credulity that the Bill of Rights meant that the government was allowing itself to have auxillary troops. Its like saying the government allows itself to have governemnt employees. Er..ok.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 12:46:06
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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The second ammendment is one of those things that makes me wish I had a time machine.
Look at the historical context of the laws.
A revolutionary nation throws off their former colonial rulers using a citizen militia. This is lauded as the ultimate defence of democracy - if you don't give us rights we can take those rights by force.
That same citizen militia now has a legitimate concern. What if the new government we have established takes away our arms in the name of peace and security, but then morphs into a despotic regime. How will we reclaim our rights? Hence the second ammendment.
I do wonder though, if you had a time machine and could show them a future America with a standing army, strong police force, universal democracy and suffrage - and a murder rate using guns that runs at 100 times (approx) that of the UK, Australia, France, Japan and Germany COMBINED! Whether they would have written the ammendment in quite the same way...
just my $0.02
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While you sleep, they'll be waiting...
Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 13:26:18
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Chimera_Calvin wrote:The second ammendment is one of those things that makes me wish I had a time machine.
Look at the historical context of the laws.
A revolutionary nation throws off their former colonial rulers using a citizen militia. This is lauded as the ultimate defence of democracy - if you don't give us rights we can take those rights by force.
That same citizen militia now has a legitimate concern. What if the new government we have established takes away our arms in the name of peace and security, but then morphs into a despotic regime. How will we reclaim our rights? Hence the second ammendment.
I do wonder though, if you had a time machine and could show them a future America with a standing army, strong police force, universal democracy and suffrage - and a murder rate using guns that runs at 100 times (approx) that of the UK, Australia, France, Japan and Germany COMBINED! Whether they would have written the ammendment in quite the same way...
just my $0.02
Nope.
Then we show them the actual murder rates in those countries, they might make it mandatory for citizenry to have firearms, instead of optional.
Then we backtrack and show them the conflicts common citizens had moving West. Indeed, this nation was not founded by the US army. It was founded by everyday citizens pushing West.
Be careful what you wish for. They might look back at the nightmare fo the Civil War and put some dastardly thing about slaves not being humans or something. At best Franklin might get a hold of an M-16 or something and start making assault rifles to defeat the "native savages." Or they might discover fajitas, and immediately invade the lands of Nuevo Mexico, causing a second defacto war with Spain. but for fajitas, it would be worth it
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/06/27 13:34:38
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 15:29:19
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Nope.
Then we show them the actual murder rates in those countries, they might make it mandatory for citizenry to have firearms, instead of optional.
You're really going to have to explain this one as what you've written doesn't make any sense at all. Even proportionally the murder rate of the countries Mr. CC listed is vastly lower than that of the USA.
Optional fireamrs in most of the countries listed ?  Not legally.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 16:23:08
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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Sorry, wasn't quite clear there. Total population of UK + France + Germany + Japan + Australia is approximately equal to the total population of the US.
In one year (I forget which it was) there were 32,000 gun-related deaths across the USA. The total number of gun related deaths in the same year in the other countries mentioned was about 300.
These figures were actually quoted in a 'West Wing' episode followed by the line "Do you think that Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or is it that those guys have gun control laws?". An old adage comes to mind about true words spoken in jest.
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While you sleep, they'll be waiting...
Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 16:47:49
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
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When it comes to the US guns are a HUGE part of our history. if it wasn't for guns we would not have our indentays. Basically the 2nd amendment was put in for a fail safe if said government goes dictatorship change it. On a side note i bet if you asked Jews after the Holocaust if it was a good idea to turn there guns in. Because Hitler put in to law firearms were illegal . And when it comes to crime 90% of guns used where stolen and to boot the shoot wasn't aloud to own a firearm. I'm thankful for the 2nd. if it was for me having a concealed carry permit i would be died. When in Texas i was getting in my car and a young man about 20 came up to me asking for money.i asked why? He then started to give me a speech about drugs and he was getting money to help kids as he was talking to me, 5 big Mexicans come to my car from my blind side .I saw them and at the last minutes i SAID VERY LOUDLY here let me give you some money i then pulled my Glock17 the youth then yell in Spanish i think gun and run like hell all five big guys stopped and run off. if i didn't have my gun guess what i think i would be dead right now. After fighting over seas you get gut instises and you go with them. thats why i love the 2nd it gives us the right to defend ourselves. my .03
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The hardiest steel is forged in battle and cooled with blood of your foes.
vet. from 88th Grenadiers
1K Sons 7-5-4
110th PDF so many battle now sitting on a shelf
88th Grenadiers PAF(planet Assault Force)
waiting on me to get back
New army:
Orks and goblins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 17:28:39
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Chimera_Calvin wrote:Sorry, wasn't quite clear there. Total population of UK + France + Germany + Japan + Australia is approximately equal to the total population of the US.
In one year (I forget which it was) there were 32,000 gun-related deaths across the USA. The total number of gun related deaths in the same year in the other countries mentioned was about 300.
These figures were actually quoted in a 'West Wing' episode followed by the line "Do you think that Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or is it that those guys have gun control laws?". An old adage comes to mind about true words spoken in jest.
Total murders, not just murders with firearms. Once that is incorporated in, US murder rates are strictly middling.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/06/27 17:29:45
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 17:37:34
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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40kenthus
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Only now do I realize how much I prefer Pete Haines' "misprints" to Gav Thorpe's "brainfarts." :Abadabadoobaddon |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 18:44:03
Subject: Re:SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Some quotes on original intent by the framers:
“The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.” -Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)
“Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion…in private self-defense…” -John Adams, A defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1788).
“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” -James Madison, The Federalist Papers No. 46 at 243-244. Author of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights
“The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.” -Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution…
Edit: and from the Great One himself
"A free people ought to be armed. When firearms go, all goes, we need them by the hour. Firearms stand next to importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence." George Washington, Boston Independence Chronicle, January 14, 1790
"To ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." George Washington
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/06/27 19:21:12
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/06/27 18:54:55
Subject: SCOTUS rules US citizens have a right to bear arms
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Thanks Jfrazell, I was about to look those up. Every time another gun control argument pops up, I wonder whether everybody forgot the 18th Amendment, and how well that went over. I didn't even realize that this was an issue until I heard about it on the radio last week. Anyway, people somehow have this idea that because the ideas behind the constitution are old, they must be obsolete. Has anyone ever actually read a copy of the Federalist papers? It is more relevant than people like to think.
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Dakka. You need more of it. No exceptions.
You ask me for an evil hamburger. I hand you a raccoon.-Captain Gordino
What are you talking about? They're Space Marines, which are heroic. They need to be able to do all the heroic stuff. They fight aliens and don't afraid of anything. -Orkeosarus
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