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Chars:
Keeper L4 w/ allure, siren song = 620
Blue scribes = 81
L1 nurgle w/palaquin, noxious vapours, slime trail = 250
Herald of tzeentch w/ winged horror, mos, BSB banner of despair = 260

Special:
5 hounds = 175

Rare:
4 flamers = 140
2 fiends = 110

Troops:
16 plaguebearers w/ standard of seeping decay + musician = 235
20 bloodletters w/ standard and musician = 198
10 horrors = 100

total 2250
10/7 + bound

Strategy:
Center anvil unit of plaguebearers , flank protected by 20 bloodletters and a unit of hounds. Horrors in the back provide cover. Fiends are going to hunt down missle/warmachines (get there by turn 2). The flamers will be placed where there is most flank threat. The Blue scribes and Tzeentch herald will try to draw out DD. Tzeentch herald will be around KOS so he can use the -2LD on possible targets. KOS will try to use siren song on long chars or wizards to get rid of magic offense/defense so more spells can go through. Although it is somewhat magic heavy I am using a lot more Troops and melee units instead of tons of flamers. I might consider tzeentch herald using Tzeentch Lore to use Boon and draw more PD to draw out DD so my keeper magic can be more effective.

Also thought about putting Staff of Nurgle in for the herald - is it a good idea or that will be OTT? I also am considering replacing Keeper with Lord of change w/tzeentch's will - any suggestions on which GD to use and if I should get a staff of Nurgle? thanks!

Over the top? Seems weak really.

Stelek wrote:Over the top? Seems weak really.

how do i fix the weakness? Any suggestions?

And some people at local tourny thinks 6PD + bound is pretty cheesy...

ROFL.

6 PD is weak.

Tell them to stop being and get some balls already.

10 PD is "normal" for a "normal" magic army.

18 PD is strong.

20+ is powerful.

I have to go to lunch now but I will look in a bit if I have the time and see how to fix it.

Stelek wrote:ROFL.

6 PD is weak.

Tell them to stop being and get some balls already.

10 PD is "normal" for a "normal" magic army.

18 PD is strong.

20+ is powerful.

I have to go to lunch now but I will look in a bit if I have the time and see how to fix it.

I do want to add to the 6PD +bound being too cheesy comment- that is also including a GD with it couple guys think too cheesy.
I could get LOC w/ tzeentch's will instead of Keeper - change banner of despair into hellfire and take nurgle staff instead of noxious vapours and slime for 10/7 + 3 bound spells. I don't want to "depend" on my magic phase but want a good one and a decent close combat(hence the 20 bloodletters,16nurgle + herald block). I can augment the PD by having my herald of tzeentch get all tzeentch spells and use Boon for more PD - if i choose LOC instead of Keeper i could do the same for tons more.

I doubt your will be happy with all those Bloodletters, especially if you don't have a Herald with them. I advise you kick them and grab some Plaguebearers, if you want fighting Chaos infantry.

The bloodletters have been decent - i need a hard hitting infantry block.. plus i already got a huge plaguebearer block. Here are couple of changes...

HQ
Lord of change L4 w/ 2 heads, dark magister = 635(?)
Blue scribes = 81
L1 nurgle w/palaquin, staff of nurgle = 265
Herald of tzeentch w/ winged horror, mos, BSB banner of Hellfire = 285

Special:
5 hounds = 175

Rare:
4 flamers = 140
2 fiends = 110

Troops:
16 plaguebearers w/ standard of seeping decay + musician = 235
15 bloodletters w/ standard and musician = 198
10 daemonettes = 120

total 2247
9/6 + 3bound...

is this balanced for 2250? Maybe take out the staff of nurgle to reduce a bound? I took out the horrors for 10 daemonettes to reduce magic and increase offense.

The reason I put LOC with 2 heads instead of the other popular choice tzeentch's will is to increase his chances fo casting more spells and making some 8-9 spells casting on 2 dice instead of 3. I could take KOS instead for better combat but I would really have to take banner of despair to increase his usefulness.. and not being able to fly hurts too.

suggestions stelek? KOS might be better choice for GD because he can do decent in combat and his spells arent too bad. LOC does all damage spells and could increase effectively of magic phase though

HQ
KOS w/ allure, siren,torment = 615
Blue scribes = 81
L1 nurgle w/palaquin, noxious, slime = 250
Herald of tzeentch w/ winged horror, mos, BSB banner of despair = 260

Special:
5 hounds = 175
5 hounds = 175

Rare:
2 fiends = 110

Troops:
16 plaguebearers w/ standard of seeping decay + musician = 235
15 bloodletters w/ standard endless war and musician = 223
10 horrors = 120

total 2244
10/6 + 1bound...

Sorry been thinking about it.

The problem I see is you are spread out all over the place, trying to do too much with a battleforce army.

The letters won't win combat--they don't have enough guys.
Same with the bearers.

The fiends seem a waste. The hounds don't have the numbers.

It's like a befuddled empire army. Only it doesn't have to be.

If you are going to run Magic, go with magic. Screw the bearers and the letters. Get more horrors, and more of them. Drop the fiends, and make sure you have something that can handle enemy charges (the hounds are fine for that but won't win serious combats).

Stelek wrote:Sorry been thinking about it.

The problem I see is you are spread out all over the place, trying to do too much with a battleforce army.

The letters won't win combat--they don't have enough guys.
Same with the bearers.

The fiends seem a waste. The hounds don't have the numbers.

It's like a befuddled empire army. Only it doesn't have to be.

If you are going to run Magic, go with magic. Screw the bearers and the letters. Get more horrors, and more of them. Drop the fiends, and make sure you have something that can handle enemy charges (the hounds are fine for that but won't win serious combats).

I am going to have a nurgle herald in the 16 plaguebearers - it will be almost invincible and it probably will win most combats through static res. the thing is the horrors' spells no one cares about and i have no real answer to enemies charging in and magic can only go so far that' why i have the 15 bloodletters. I thought 5 is always the best number for hounds - any bigger they become cumbersome. The fiends i use to hunt down archer lines and warmachines - killing even one squad of those will make their points back.

HQ
KOS w/ allure, siren,torment = 615
Blue scribes = 81
L1 nurgle w/palaquin, noxious, slime = 250
Herald of tzeentch w/ winged horror, mos, BSB banner of despair = 260

Special:
5 hounds = 175

Rare:
2 fiends = 110

Troops:
16 plaguebearers w/ standard of seeping decay + musician = 235 (with herald)
20 bloodletters w/ standard endless war and musician = 283
10 horrors = 120
10 horrors = 120

total 2249
11/8 + 1bound...

I made the bloodletters bigger so they can win combat - now i have 2 huge blocks of troops marching in with hounds protecting one flank while my fiends search and destroy warmachines and my wizards fly over the place wreaking havoc. To take care of flankers I have my KOS use Siren song on the flankers to the opposite of my hounds and I will also use my horrors as sacrificial blocks to my main troops if needed. I think my magic phase is decent especially i am using a L4, L2, LX?(possibly L2 with bound and power dice generator) and 3 L1s - that is quite a bit of wizards that others dont get to have in a 2250 army. Spells i will be casting will be as follow:

2 x flickering fire from horrors (2pd)
1 X boon from herald tzeentch to draw out DD (1pd)
1 x phantasmogoria from KOS (3pd)
1 x the slaanesh radius spell(forget name) (2pd)
1 x blue scribes bound
1 x slicing shards (2pd)
1 x miasma if needed (1/2 pd depending on urgency to use it)

I can probably get 4-5 spells off a turn with a bound - opponent can probably cancel out 2-3 with DD. Now they have to use DS to get rid of more spells. I think I could reliably get ~2 spells off per turn maybe more if opp isnt wizard heavy. If they are not then my plaguebearers and bloodletters can hold their line while help comes around. The major weakness is probably the lack of fighting troops on my side since I have 3(hounds,bloodletters,plaguebearers) that can really fight while rest probably just sitting around.

Fiends...hunting down archers and warmachines. If you've gotten this to work...oh boy.

Plaguebearers die to flaming attacks. Everyone has flaming attacks thanks to treemen. Thus, this small unit of near invincibility will be manhandled.

20 is not huge. You lose 1 guy and you are down a rank.

I think having 2 units of 5 hounds is fine, but the army still lacks a distinct purpose.

CC armies will beat you.
Magic armies will beat you.
Shooting armies will beat you.

Really.

Stelek is, to my mind, exaggerating slightly.

I don't think magic armies will beat you. You've got the dogs, which are pure poison to a magic army, and you've got a substantial reserve of dispel dice. Your assault elements are mostly turn 2 sort of guys. I'd say you'll kick most magic phase armies teeth in.

Shooting armies are a bit dicier, but I think you've got their number. Dogs tend to be bad for them as well, and your whole army has a ward save and is immune to psych, which shooting armies hate. You might get in a lot of trouble vs. the style of shooting armies that have a really first class counter-assault element (high elves, dwarves), but the KOS ought to be able to rip through most anything (provided it makes it through the shooting, which is very luck dependent.)

It's combat armies that I think will trouble you. Those tend to come in horde flavors and death star flavors. I think hordes will simply surround + flee and flank you, and there's very little you can do about it. Death Stars, by contrast, tend to have a lord in the mix, and should be able to deal with either your KOS or your blocks.

For a worst case scenario, how would you deal with a first class Bretonian list?

He swapped to one unit of dogs. Which is going to kill what?

Turn 2? With bearers and letters? In what world?

Magic armies will flame the bearers away. Then the letters. After that, what's to kill? The GD? Come on, everyone has an answer for GD.

I agree with your other sentiments though. It feels like a small list, it's gonna get sucked and pulled around by it's nose by dedicated combat armies.

Ic. Currently I have L4, L2,Scribes,L1 and 2 L1 in horrors... I dont think i need to outmagic anymore. I agree some armies might have flaming but that doesnt auto disqualify the Plaguebearer unit - T4 and 5+ ward is still decent. I do agree that I will face hardship against combat oriented armies but I think with a decent magic phase I will be able to thin them down somewhat to reduce their effectiveness.

Against Bretonnians I will use banner of despair and phantasmagoria. - roll 3 dice, drop lowest and get -2 is deadly against a general LD8 army - any army as a matter of fact. I will place enough terrain for my BSB to hide behind so at least the -2LD will come into play. Plus slicing shards ignores armor so i wound on 4s, they need save on 6s then take LD at -2. And my plaguebearer and bloodletters can do decent against the knights with ranks and standards - as long as they pass the instability time the first round of combat that is..

I think Stelek thinks while opponent is closing in on me with flaming weapons or large units I am not going to do anything about it - that is where my magic phase comes in. I dont want to totally depend on it but i think my magic phase will be OK.

And Stelek, should I include a Lord of Change with two heads + dark magister to further boost my magic phase? 2 heads will help getting most of his spells off while saving PD for my other guys to cast. Plus my LOC can fly with my -2 banner and "terror bomb" units. Or you think a KOS will do the job fine and I need more of his combat abilities?

So what can I do to be balanced here to go against all armies? At first I thought I am balanced but I guess not? thanks!

chars
LOC L4 w/ Dark magister,2 heads = 630
Blue scribes = 81
L1 nurgle w/palaquin, noxious, slime = 250
Herald of tzeentch w/ winged horror, mos, BSB banner of despair = 260

Special:
5 hounds = 175

Rare:
2 fiends = 110
2 fiends = 110

Troops:
16 plaguebearers w/ standard of seeping decay + musician = 235 (with herald)
15 bloodletters w/ full command = 270
10 horrors w/musician= 126


total 2247
10/7 + 1bound.

Now I have 2 x2 fiends for warmachine/archer hunting and also they are decent flank blockers and rank negators (US6) and can take on fast cavs and skirmishers OK. I think this might be best way to go?

It's better but honestly I'd run a smaller pair of letter units, another hound unit, drop the horrors and the blue scribes...

It just feels like a mishmash still.

Fiends are random, that's the problem. They really don't do a lot.

The LOC is fine, I just think you are trying to do too many things without being really good at any of them.

Stelek wrote:It's better but honestly I'd run a smaller pair of letter units, another hound unit, drop the horrors and the blue scribes...

It just feels like a mishmash still.

Fiends are random, that's the problem. They really don't do a lot.

chars
Kairos = 635 (?)
Blue scribes = 81
L1 nurgle w/palaquin, noxious, slime = 250
Herald of tzeentch w/ winged horror, mos, BSB banner of despair = 260

Special:
5 hounds = 175
5 hounds = 175

Rare:
2 fiends = 110


Troops:
16 plaguebearers w/ standard of seeping decay + musician = 235 (with herald)
10 bloodletters = 120
10 bloodletters = 120
7 furies

total ~2244
9/6 + 1bound. I dropped horrors and got another hounds and 7 furies with leftover points. I included Kairos for more magic power. I am thinking of keeping Scribes for their free spell and their power dice draw ability in case i play against magic heavy armies. If I had included a tzeentch herald instead of Scribes I get 2 more PD which translates into a somewhat guranteed spell as opposed to the scribe's free one.. Is there an identity to this army now? I kept fiends because they can really do wonders against annoying shooters/skirmishers.
I could take out 2 fiends and the furies for 5 flamers.

Hmmm it's making more sense, at least.

Flamers are very helpful, giving you some shooting.

Furies can handle most war machine crew, and will at least get there. I really don't think fiends will do what you think they will.

Stelek wrote:Hmmm it's making more sense, at least.

Flamers are very helpful, giving you some shooting.

Furies can handle most war machine crew, and will at least get there. I really don't think fiends will do what you think they will.

when I played flamers before they are best when you have a bunch of them... with 110 from fiends and 84 from furies i can have (from most ot least preferred):

3 fiends
5 x 2 furies and 74 points for something.... 5 more plaguebearers?
5 flamers
5 seekers 6 furies


I try to steer away from flamers because my last few armies always had "by default" - 2 x 5 hounds, 2 x 5/6 flamers and i dont want this new army to be a clone. 3 fiends will have more stay power and become more of a threat (moreso than hounds in some aspects).