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So I have a friend who uses Bane Knights fairly extensively (generally 2 units, sometimes with Tartarus) and I've come to the conclusion that I pretty much can not beat them in CC and need to be using things like my Mortar Crew, Destroyer, and mainly Widowmakers to take them out.

In Melee, I've got nothing that can stand up to them retaliating after being hit, even Demo Corps. The Kodiak can pull things off, but even then it's not that great as they have reach and the 3" AOE it gets from Vent Steam won't kill *that* many.

So when I have to deal with the Bane Knights, or a force heavily themed around them, am I forced to Turtle up and shoot as much as possible and then engage? Just kind of offputting as I'm playing "super angry smashy Khador" and I face off against a force like Cryx that has a list that can completely decimate me in melee and it takes a much more nuanced approach to pull them down.

Use Sorscha. She's an evil little tricky ice minx, but she works. Freeze the crap out of the bane knights and they dont get to shift anymore. Think like this: Caster kill is not the only use for Sorscha's feat. Line up some MOW charge lines, Freeze the shifty banes, Kill everything with big hammers. It works really well. Then just go for caster in a more traditional way. Even when the knights are frozen, you can still use your mortar and destroyer to thin the targets your MOW's need to deal with.

Pretty sure Kazay assassins with an underboss eats them alive since they have a lower than average MAT.

They put the borke in borken.

They're very tough to deal with, and your Khadorian AoEs that easily chew up Cygnarian and Menite soldiers don't do much against Armor 16 (iirc). Their MAT isn't huge (6, iirc), so throwing something high DEF out there may bog them down.

Widowmakers can work, as long as they can't engage the unit their shadowshifts. They're low DEF, so even Winterguard have a hope against them. Kossites could work, but I don't know if they have the range you need.

If your 'friend' is going to field 2 units and Tarturus, then bring some wine and a big block of cheese. They are arguably the most cheesy thing in WM/Hordes, so bring something nasty. Pull the flying horseman, play Sorscha, eVlad, whatever you need to do.

Banes are going to field one of two ways

with Skarre
and with out Skarre

banes without Skarre are easy to handle shoot at them, heck even melee them, the mat of 6 means they can't hit the broad side of a barn normally, basicly they will need an average role to hit def 13.

banes with skarre are another matter, they will always be rolling 3d6 to hit so average roll will hit def 16. average damage will take a demo corp down half life and demo corp will be out numbered. shoot at them, or iron fang pikemen are good IFP can trade one for one with the knights and you will still come out ahead since the IFP are cheaper.

Honestly im not sure stationary will stop a shadowshift, pretty sure in re-mix stationary say during a models activations but not 100% on that.

Tartarus is really a strawman for baneknights, the only thing he brings to the table really for them is bekon( which is alot , got to love 17 inch threat range). the curse thing is nice but really Skarre gives them all the help they need. I will say this though, its not so much that Bane knights are broken, its more along the lines that they are the first real unit of infantry cryx got that had decent arm combined with a real offensive punch. I would actually go so far as to say it was the first good unit of infantry cryx got that did not involve killing itself to get the job done. The bigest issue is that people use them like McThralls which makes for a very effective unit.

I've dealt with them thus far, my AOE's w/ Signs & Portents takes them down fairly effectively, and Widow Makers always get the job done (killing the shadow shifted models).

I was just wondering if there was a way for me to actually fight them and win, but the out of order attacks really just shred me to death, and also when engaging with a relatively small unit of say, Demo Corps, it's fairly easy for them to get models out of engagement range.

Basically I've just come to the conclusion that to beat them, I must shoot them.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I've dealt with them thus far, my AOE's w/ Signs & Portents takes them down fairly effectively, and Widow Makers always get the job done (killing the shadow shifted models).

I was just wondering if there was a way for me to actually fight them and win, but the out of order attacks really just shred me to death, and also when engaging with a relatively small unit of say, Demo Corps, it's fairly easy for them to get models out of engagement range.

Basically I've just come to the conclusion that to beat them, I must shoot them.

I think the whole shoot them from afar, is the entire reason people started to take them in groups of 20 to 30. IN play one full unit of baneknights are not going to be very good, they are going to get shoot up and won't make it to the target in effective ( 4+) numbers. If I take 20 of them plus a screening unit I will on average get 11 to 14 to target, which is actually more than I need on target. Tartarus changes this with bekon since it lets me move full unit of banes to have 16.5" threat range( longer than most shooting ranges) and the second unit is being screened.

All in all its like I have been saying Banesknights aren;t the issue , tartarus is not the issue, Skarre is not the issue , its when you put all three togther that the issue shows up.

Narlix is fairly correct with his analysis.

Banes with Skarre can hit anything.
Banes without Skarre can have trouble.

Cryx has other ways to boost them, or debuff their targets, of course. Deneghra springs to mind immediately.

Also, consider that they cannot charge you if they cannot see you. They are a slow speed 5 unless they're charging a cursed unit. Yes they can run 10" (and charge 8+2 with reach), but if you stay out of LOS or 10", they will not be hitting anything.

They lack the one good thing that Bane Thralls have, Stealth, and it is very hard for them to receive it as a buff (only the Coven). They're only DEF 12 (IIRC), so shoot the heck out of them at range if you can. Mortars clear them out nicely, especially if you have a way to boost the blast damage.

Stationary does stop the shift, as stationary models cannot move for one round. Freeze or KD 'em if you can, then shoot 'em to heck.

Other Khador options:
Old Witch's Field of Talons
Alexia's undead control ability


Personally, when using Banes, I like to take one unit of Thralls and one of Knights. This forces my opponent to make some hard decisions. Sit back and shoot the knights while the Thralls run up the field unmolested, or move forward to take out the Thralls and allow more of the Knights to get through.

Of course, if you're using multiple AOEs, you don't have to worry about choices so much.

Banes with Tartarus are Mat 8 (equivalent). Similarly Deneghra can effectively increase their Mat with her Feat and Crippling Grasp. Bane Knight rely primarily on your (the opponent) fear of them, in this they are much like Bile thralls. Shooting them is the best weapon you have against them but you can attack a weakened unit in combat without fear thanks to their poor base Mat or attack them from fairly well from close range with the likes of Winter Guard thanks to their poor Def.

In large battles (750+) Alexia is a threat of the past thanks to the Withershadow Combine. Bane Knights will be Cmd 11+ in the hands of an experienced player.

If you hit a bunch of BKs en masse with a Trample attack or
with a slammed target, what's the order of events?

So Bane Knights have a low MAT? It's the same as my IFP not counting the Kaptain or the UA Sergeant.

Plus it doesn't help when they go after things like my Jacks (go go Khador DEF10!) or when Tartarus curses a unit. :(

Still, for all the "problems" of Bane Knights, I've come to learn how to beat them and I'm absolutely loving the challenge of it because I DO have the tools to do so. One thing I'm coming to love about this game is the depth of knowledge to be gleaned from just playing more and more games.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:So Bane Knights have a low MAT? It's the same as my IFP not counting the Kaptain or the UA Sergeant.

Plus it doesn't help when they go after things like my Jacks (go go Khador DEF10!) or when Tartarus curses a unit. :(

Still, for all the "problems" of Bane Knights, I've come to learn how to beat them and I'm absolutely loving the challenge of it because I DO have the tools to do so. One thing I'm coming to love about this game is the depth of knowledge to be gleaned from just playing more and more games.

IFP are MAT 6 but they also have CMA which is big, basicly the IFP are going to get 5 attacks at MAT 8/9 P+S of 15, or any combo other combo you can think of.
Yeah khador jacks are only DEF 10 but with armor 20 average rolls even on a charge from a bane knight only net 5 damage to the jack.

MalFred, thats a dirty dirty question to ask, but basicly the answer is move trampling model to end location and count the number of bane knights you pass over; make attacks against each bane knight if you hit the first bane knight the player gets a shadowshift to use after you see if you kill it, ect ect. basicly you can't shadowshift banes out of a trample attack, but the shadowshifts can be used to shift into melee range with the tramplers final placement and attack it. Its just kind of a bad idea since any free strikes are at 4d6 for damage and the shadowshifts can do alot of damage.

Circle don't need to worry about these guys do they? Do they have ways of getting around created terrain?

Yep, they can move through (but not charge) through rough terrain without penalty. They can walk right though Baldur's Morvahna's and the Woldwatcher's forests and Shadow Shift is out of turn so it isn't stopped by Baldur's feat.

I was just wondering if there was a way for me to actually fight them and win, but the out of order attacks really just shred me to death, and also when engaging with a relatively small unit of say, Demo Corps, it's fairly easy for them to get models out of engagement range.

Probably not with Kador. Death marched praetorians are another matter and a no brainer to trade with banes point for point.