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I've been doing some thinking about the Imperial Guard and what they mean within the world of 40k. The Guard are a vast army of redshirt, an infinite number of expendable mooks throw into the teeth of the worst combat in the galaxy, but they are also heroic badasses that stand up to cosmic horrors and gribbly monsters beyond description armed with a laser rifle and and a bayonet. On the one hand, they are armed and equipped with cheap, low-powered weapons, but on the other hand their rifles regularly remove limbs and their clothing itself is a bulletproof reactive material that makes modern kevlar look like paper. They are supposed to be an army of peasants, but they have impressive training in battlefield medicine and training. They are also highly specialized and, for the most part, are actually Imperial Elites; the Space Marines aren't soldiers, their living angels of the God-Emperor. The Guard are drawn from the best of the PDF and deployed across the galaxy. They are both the worst and the best, the poor bloody infantry and the valiant boys on the front lines.

The Guard have something fundamentally wrong with them, in game terms. They are six points, but are not worth six points; frequently, there is talk of dropping them to five or even four points. In the army currently, infantry squads are just vessels for special and heavy weapons. On the other hand, increasing their stats is dangerous because they represent the absolute average trained human against which the rest of the universe is compared. I personally peg the 'ideal worth' of the Guardsman at seven points, more valuable than an Ork or a Gaunt, from factions defined by limitless numbers, but less than an Eldar, a faction defined by their race's slow fall to extinction. This seems 'right', as Humanity is somewhere between these two, with great numbers yet fighting an inevitable doom.

To me, the defining quality of the Imperial Guard is their humanity, and how that trait is treated by the harsh future of the 41st Millennium. They are just men (and woman), but they are the best of their kind, willing to stand between the horrors of a merciless universe and their people of the Imperium and give their lives in service. Individually, they can't accomplish much, but their teamwork, bravery and, yes, sheer numbers can defeat any foe. What I think is important, then, is to focus on the footslogger, to make him worth fielding by his own merit, without changing who he is on the individual level. People should be able to take the basic platoon as field it as they choose, as a human wave of desperate conscripts, as cool and collected modern infantry force, as a disciplined and serious phalanx of brightly-uniformed professionals, as a stealthy force of vengeful killers

Therefore, I propose an upgrade that can be conferred to the Junior Officers of infantry platoons, upgrading to "Heroic Junior Officer" which would act as a sort of combination doctrine system, veteran upgrade and means to upgrade the individual infantryman to his proper worth.

Step One - The individual guardsman goes down to 5 points. Heavy Weapons are removed from squads, but the heavy flamer and sniper rifle become available in their place. In this form they represent the bulk of the Guard's generic ranks.
Step Two - Junior Officers have a list of upgrades they can select that represents a combination of their own personal abilities, their regiments history, and "that special something" that makes the difference between and officer and a leader. Each offers an advantage and a disadvantage, and costs 10 points a squad. I think the list should look like this.
Professional: The officer is a serious career soldier and expects the best of his men. Squads taking this upgrade may fire their weapons at 24" even if they move, representing their focus on squad tactics and fire control, and may fire even if they go to ground. However, they are now weapon skill 2, as they can be overwhelmed by sheer brute force much more easily. (Cadians and other 'modern' professional infantry types would use this)
Disciplined: This officer is a brutal, though fair man that expects his men to hold the line under any circumstances. Works like Iron Discipline, but his soldiers must take a leadership test to move if more than 12" away from him. (Death Korps and Mordians would go for this)
Brave: This officer is a born hero, inspiring his men to great feats and leading from the front. So long as the command squad is farther forward than the rest of the platoon, the platoon benefits from the fearless special rule and WS4. However, they may not use the officer's leadership in any other situation. (Assaulty guard ahoy!)
Lucky: This officer, and the unit he leads, have a charmed life. So long as the officer is alive, everyone in the unit gains +4 saves at all times. However, they may not run and may not use 'heavy' weapons or flamers... perhaps this luck is simply caution? (Soldiers that rank up will like this, such as Praetorians, or anyone led by as certain Hero of the Imperium...)
Intelligent: This officer knows what he's doing. His soldiers gain the Move through Cover universal special rule, and infantry squads that have gone to ground may ignore the effects at the start of their turn by passing a leadership check. However, the platoon may use no other officer's leadership, not even the senior officer. (Tanith, Catachan and the like)
Steady: Nothing phases this man, and his soldiers will hold the line under any circumstances. The infantry squads benefit from the Sharpshooters rule and their lasguns count as Heavy2 24". (An alternate for Mordians and Praetorians, and defensive fighters like Valhallans)
Step Three : On top of this, have "alternate organizations" available, like airborne, mechanized, and heavy infantry (carapace armoured).
Step Four: Let sit for fifteen minutes, and serve to an organization of billions.

Personally, I like my Guardsmen to be faceless mooks, and I don't mind them to be extra Wounds for the Heavy and Special Weapons.

The job of a Guardsman is to be a small cog in the great Imperial military machine, doing his small part so that the Imperium can win. So I like them at 5 pts, rather than 7 pts.

Quite frankly, if the IG squads lose their Heavy Weapons, they're practically totally worthless.

If the Junior Officer doesn't have an option called "Heavy and Special" that confers a Lascannon and Plasma Gun onto his guys, I say the boys can frag him.

From an organization standpoint, the only semi-viable one is Mechanized, because it adds Chimeras that have low-grade Heavy weapons.

But really, taking their guns away simply means that Guardsmen become totally worthless meat sacks that you need to waste points on.
____

Hmm... seems to harsh. Sorry.

Anyway, the idea is pretty good, as long as you don't remove the Heavy Weapons.

First, addressing the fluff issues you discuss and how it relates points-wise to the game - I agree with some of what you say and disagree with some. Part of the problem with the 40k system is the fact that we're essentially dealing with a system where most characteristics and attributes run a scale from 1 to 6. And from your discussion I know that you do recognize that the difference between a 3 and a 4 is the difference between human and superhuman. In a game like Inquisitor or Dark Heresy, you can have attributes between that 3 and 4 that are meaningful in terms of game mechanics. From a 40k perspective, though, the variation in human skill and physical ability has to be encapsulated in that 3. So, really, you could be talking about a meagerly trained PDF trooper with a ballistic skill of what would more accurately be described as 2.51. Or you could be talking about a well-trained trooper with a ballistic skill of 3.49. For the ease of our play, though, these get rounded to 3.

Second, addressing the officer upgrades, I have to agree with John on the issue of taking away the Heavy Weapons. Don't do it. And while the personal officer upgrades are an interesting idea, particularly if you're the type of player that focuses on making fluffy armies, I only see one that people would seriously consider playing with. The others I see going the way of Independent Commissars and Warrior Weapons. The ideas make for very fluffy and characterful armies, but I don't think make for very effective armies.

open_sketchbook wrote:Step One - The individual guardsman goes down to 5 points. Heavy Weapons are removed from squads, but the heavy flamer and sniper rifle become available in their place. In this form they represent the bulk of the Guard's generic ranks.

And that's where I stopped reading.

You remove the essence of the Guard - ranks upon ranks of infantry firing heavy weapons.

You also propose a rule that invalidates every Guard army out there.

Guard w/No Squad Heavy Weapons = Fail.

BYE

My guard army works just fine without ranks and ranks of heavy weapons. Really, I only need 15 of them in weapons teams! The infantry kind of have a new job now, one that involves getting their collective butts over to the other side of the table and taking objectives.

Honestly, I agree with sketchbook. People overlook the devastating (and yes I said it) effect of massed lasgun fire. One of the greatest memories I have is of a swuad of regular infantry with sharpshooter and a grenade launcher taking out a 7 man squad squad of possessed chaos marines. Another was of one of my Veteren Sergeant from my sedcond platoon holding up a full squad of scouts by himself for two rounds. guardsmen are exactly what they are supposed to be, human, and sometimes they can do amazing things. There is no disposable infantry.

Sketchbook/wasserrj: you are in for a heck of a surprise if you think your anecdotes are going to sway some of the posters around here. Realize the only reason you have not all ready had your ******* opened is that 5th edition has *everybody* here(including the mods) except for Stelek on the back foot for giving rules advice and dispensing forum beatdowns. Hell, some of the crap I've been posting - i.e. the finagling around on powerfists - wouldn't have stood for a second if the whole environment wasn't up in the air right now. Personally I think it would make life a lot simpler if they were all swarms on 60mm bases, 'cause who wants to move 100+ figures? Also, it's not like GW makes any money from people buying the GF9 movement trays. And not to flame, but that comment that "there is no disposable infantry," especially coupled with the example of grenade launchers, presumably from fourth, um....reflects extremely poorly on your credibility, wasserrj. Enjoy your space here for now, because it will shrink like a shirt in the wash once the first round of official FAQs come out.

Back OT, I don't think the sniper rifle idea is a bad one because it is a weak and specialized weapon, and helping to put the nerf on nidzilla - or at least force them to take carapace - is a good thing. The heavy flamer might not be such a hot call (ha ha ha) just because flamers in general are all ready getting a pretty significant buff.

@open:

That's awesome for you that your flashlightmen are doing well. Bravo. For the rest of us, which is pretty much every other Guard player out there, I think we like our Heavy and Special wapons.


@wasserj:

There used to be a thread about the amazing feats of the Frateris Militia - human rabble even more ordinary than Guardsmen. Things like taking down Greater Daemons in close combat and such.

I have no interest in such heroism.

These are ordinary men. And ordinary men should have ZERO chance fighting against a Bloodthirster.

That is why they have Heavy and Special weapons, so they can shoot things like that dead at range, *before* that Bloodthirster flies in and starts ripping men in half.

I'm with Open

Its the same with my guard, the less heavy weapons you take the more oh the little blighters you can fit into platoons.

the Heavy weapons on my tanks do fine enough when it comes to removing the larger more harder to kill enemys

Actually, to be fair, lasguns actually were pretty good against other GEQs, especially back in 3rd when they cost fewer points. And my reaction is a little OTT when I reconsider that this was after all posted in the fluff forum. There have been some times when 4 point Grots with 12" S3 blastas have performed admirably. I remember one game I was playing in 3rd with 'nids on guard. They lucked out on rolling for their plasma guns and the TMCs were hurting. Then one of my 8-strong "discount gaunt" (WS 3 I 4 beasts) units lucked out on their fleet roll. They hit the infantry on the far right of the imperial flank, killed two guardsmen, broke, pursued and slaughtered the unit, gaining something like 12" of extra movement. This took them across the board. The next turn they hit the unit of IG closest in, whose lasguns and heavy bolter had only been performing in an average fashion. You can guess how this story ends. Over the course of a few turns about 400 points of IG were annihilated by a single disposable unit of unupgraded Gaunts. I never laughed so hard in my life. In any game based on dice, you will have times when you luck out and the improbable happens. The owner of that IG army had a similar story in which the bulk of a Chaos strike force had advanced unimpeded by his shooting. As Abadon strode confidently towards the fray, a five-man command team advanced and assaulted. A whole passel of 6's and 1's later, the Chaos force was beheaded. With such a large part of their force gone - it was a small points game and the Chaos player had convinced the IG player to allow him to use Abadon, claiming that he was merely a fighter and not a leader and so his inclusion in an army well under 1500 points was legal, the win went to the Guard.

So while it may be improbable for a unit with such pitiful stats as Guardsmen, Gaunts or Grots to cope with the nastier things in the universe, in retrospect I can see a small component of truth to sketchbooks point. An individual person does win the lottery more than once, lightning does strike the same spot repeatedly, and IG with lasguns do kick some ass - just not very often. If your luck is that good, IMHO you're wasting your time with 40k, especially the post-2nd edition variety, and should play blackjack or hold'um instead - a few rounds of that with cocky enough opponents and you'll never have to bitch about mortgages, insurance, or GW prices ever again for the rest of your life.

OK I reread it and its the proposed rules but I still think my initial reaction - and even that of H. - were a little harsh. It's not like this was posted in tactics or anything.

sorry for triple post but my laptop is refusing to load the edit function for some reason.

I should have said, with the blackjack earnings from luck like that, you can buy GW, fire Jervis, Gav, and Allesio, and bring back the good old days of 2nd and Rogue Trader.

Wow, such hostility for a group of people who should be enjoying a game. I was simply making my thoughts on the subject known, so try not to get all touchy about it. And I wasn't downplaying heavy weapons everyone, just to make a point, just trying to voice a seperate view on the subject as opposed to just agreeing, especially when I have a legitimate view. Now, to maybe make what I was saying more clear, I was just trying to say that while HW's do make a big difference in the army, the regular infantry is far from useless and shouldn't really be all that disposable. True, I haven't really had my ass handed to me yet in 5th ed., maybe it's luck, but with a good strategy and some know-how of the opposing army you can make quite an impression with your infantry, and your junior officers. Oh and wight, don't begin to act like you know about my situation, I've been gaming since 98, using guard, and yes that situation was in 4th edition, and it was incredibly lucky, as was the Vet Sgt holding off scouts. If my credibility is in question because you don't agree with me then maybe your credibility should be in question too.

I think Guard would pretty much be fixed if you gave standard platoons a special rule that allowed them to move or shoot (but not Run or assault) after Going to Ground, and gave them some sort of Stand and Shoot option as a reaction when assaulted (prevents them from piling in at the start of combat, maybe.) Make 'em 7 points a pop for both rules, keep pretty much everything else the same.

Guard w/No Squad Heavy Weapons = Fail

Pretty much True Except for Drop IG but they take it on Sent's.

Flash Lights arent that good. even in mass

I would love 3-4 pt IG

Think about it ORKS are 6 pts

And better then IG in every way.

O NOOO they have BS 2 ok well they shoot Bolters and each have two shots then charge. Then Big shootas or Rockets.

IG does need to be about 3/4 pts a guy IMO.

I love the Idea of them all being different and have there own character.

"Make 'em 7 points a pop for both rules, keep pretty much everything else the same. "

ahhh there weapons better be cheaper. And any ways if they got stand and shoot with lasguns o well 4's to hit and like 5-6 to wound yea !!!!!

But game wise need to be cheaper and have characters that give army doctrines.

And any ways if they got stand and shoot with lasguns o well 4's to hit and like 5-6 to wound yea !!!!!

Count that towards combat resolution, plus their normal swings, and they might just win combat every once in a while. At any rate it's a step in the right direction, I think.

well maybe if that happend maybe.

But think you'll need 4's/5's to hit then 5-6 to wound on most armys.

So I see no point. Really it'd be nasty on like a Vet squad with 3 plasma's or with a Flamer againist orks.

but just the Lasguns not really.

It'd be ok I guess if you got to fire all weapons in squad.

But I doubt they'll bring that into the new IG codex.

On the infantry level, I usually find I can't use anything but the special weapons as it is. My guys are usually running about to force the enemy off objectives, and usually bringing three special weapons, plus their officers weapon spam, plus their lasguns in rapid fire, is enough to kill most units directly in front of then. Meanwhile, the detached weapon teams can stay still and hunt the targets threatening the Guardsmen. I don't care what you say, 50+ lasgun shots per platoon does some hurt, particularly to GEQ, and plasma guns or grenade launchers can punctuate that wonderfully.

Oh, on top of that, it makes for a guard army that, you know, moves and is interesting to play, without being the crapshoot I always found drop troopers to be. I used to play gunline guard, and they did pretty good for themselves most of the time, but it was so ridiculously boring to play that I would throw in weird elements like multiple demolishers or tooled up command teams to add any kind of dynamic to the list. 5th Ed is supposed to have free up armies to move and take objectives and be dynamic, and the Guard have to at least try. Will it always work? No! But if it did, what the hell kind of fun would this game be?

lol

Man I need to learn my lesson about trying to retract statements, apologize, soften posts or express sympathy on message boards - nobody ever accepts the former two or notices in the latter cases.

Not to drag this too far OT, but the new book eventually will come out, and sketch might indeed get his wish. Until then, there are always house rules - yay! proposed rules! - AT43 and War Machine. Tangentially, the IG Valhallan line are a LOT better looking than the Russian dudes in War Machine and most people should let you use them in that game.

If there's any bitterness in my post, it's because a) talking about GW gets my goat about half the time and b) I've got two or three personal issues and I really can't help assaulting a forum occasionally.

I hate the GW rules development team for the impact they've had on the overall hobby. (ok, really I just hate the 40k rules development team - Fantasy Battle looks kind of balanced right out of the box, LotR is fast paced and easy to play, Epic is nicely simplified and Necromunda and GorkaMorka were actually kinda fun) It just irks me that they seem to feel they can shove an inferior ruleset down the throats of people with no other options but the GW store - where independent retailers are all dead, or in remote areas where it's a drive to even get to a GW store - just because they can count on the sculpts selling without them doing anything but basically mocking anyone over the age of ten who tries to play the game the "right" i.e. GW way. Also in their weird and whacky upside down corporate culture, it's like they think its a good business plan to spit on their customers.

That's why I probably come off a little like a **** from time to time - that and I every so often forget in which precise section of the site I'm posting and let a misguided desire to help get in the way not making myself look stupid. No male hates anything quite so much as accepting a helping hand - and unfortunately this is a very male game.

When the chips are down GW won't come after you for playing with their pieces according to some more fun set of rules you and your buddies come up with - this could be as close to a sort of well-worded version of 3rd/4th as the 40k Revised project or as far away as some kind of coin/card based homebrew. You just won't really be able to use your pieces to amuse yourself much in their tournies and stores.

I understand the sentiment my friend. I used to comanage a game store in Allentown PA for a while and they were always a pain in the ass when it came to everything, and that was before you got into reading new material. They chap everyones ass.

Didn't the doctrines system allow for this kind of customisation?

Guard don't need any big changes. Apart from KPs, they're still a viable army. For me the fluff fits very well into the army list.

Gazzdag wrote:Didn't the doctrines system allow for this kind of customisation?

Doctrines are a great idea but poorly thought out. Some are tremendous (Iron Discipline, Veterans, and to a lesser extent grenadiers), some are useful if you want to spend extra points (light infantry, cameoline, independent commisars, carapace) and some are decent until the flamethrowers show up (COD anybody?); others are just poor - poor poor poor poor (Bionics, Warrior Weapons, Jungle fighters).

Gazzdag wrote:Didn't the doctrines system allow for this kind of customisation?

Guard don't need any big changes. Apart from KPs, they're still a viable army. For me the fluff fits very well into the army list.

Does it allow for this kind of customization? Yes. Does it need big changes? Yes - half the doctrines are useless, with a few of those made completely useless by 5E rules (Jungle Fighters, I'm looking at you, kid - you get to fire through woods? So does everyone else.) And there's been enough discussion of IG's issues with kill points just by itself to warrant a major overhaul.

Gazzdag wrote:Didn't the doctrines system allow for this kind of customisation?

Guard don't need any big changes.

Sort of, but not well, and not in a well-balanced way.

Aside from the fact that their Troops are slightly overcosted, and their Transports are grossly overcosted, and their Advisors / Abhumans are largely unplayable, and they have exceptionally low chances to win Objective missions, yeah, I'd agree that Guard don't need any big changes.

bryantsbears wrote:Doctrines are a great idea but poorly thought out. Some are tremendous (Iron Discipline, Veterans, and to a lesser extent grenadiers), some are useful if you want to spend extra points (light infantry, cameoline, independent commisars, carapace) and some are decent until the flamethrowers show up (COD anybody?); others are just poor - poor poor poor poor (Bionics, Warrior Weapons, Jungle fighters).

Totally agreed. Cameoline is good under 5th Edition. I like it!

Death By Monkeys wrote:Does it allow for this kind of customization? Yes. Does it need big changes? Yes - half the doctrines are useless, with a few of those made completely useless by 5E rules (Jungle Fighters, I'm looking at you, kid - you get to fire through woods? So does everyone else.) And there's been enough discussion of IG's issues with kill points just by itself to warrant a major overhaul.

Even if KPs were fixed, the Guard will need a *lot* more changes to stay viable.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Even if KPs were fixed, the Guard will need a *lot* more changes to stay viable.

Very true. I was just trying to make a concise point.

And I agreed.

The most important thing to remember is that IG are trained pretty decently when you consider that for all a marine goes through he only ends up 25% better than a guardsmen and that the space marines supremacy on the field is more a matter of equipment. A comparison of IG stormtroopers to the new SM scouts makes this relatively clear. Point, the IG aren't poor, they aren't faceless joes, the rest of the universe is just very scary and dangerous.

The faceless cannon fodder of the IG are the conscripts; what you describe as your concept in your first paragraph in the original post has more in common with conscripts than basic IG.

I feel that IG in their current form are really only worth 5.5 pts each and that some marginal rules can bring their worth in line with their cost. I mean why make the squad worth 10 pts less overall and then make them pay 10 points to get your special rules? Keep the point cost and give them the special rules.

I think heavy weapons belong in the core unit of IG, unless IG are going to represent American Civil War era units. IG struggle enough even with the heavy weapons they have, taking them away will only make them suffer more. To make up the loss of heavy weapons from the basic squads will require each platoon to have at least 2 extra squads. The individual squads you describe will end up being equivalent to the cultists that Alpha legion used to be able to take.

I believe you have some interesting ideas here with a unique direction for the IG but even now their is growing number of people moving away from basic IG infantry in favor of drop troops and stormtroopers because of the lack of effectiveness. Take away heavy weapons and you take away the last shred of usefulness over those other units and army configurations.

Guardsmen of pretty much any type are fodder until they reach Command or Veteran status and are allowed to carry a Heavy or Special weapon.

You need to be careful to not confuse the function of Guardsmen and conscripts.

Guardsmen are trained, conscripts not so much. Guardsmen are battle hardend, Conscripts not so much.
Guardsmen are professional soldiers, conscripts aren't.
Conscripts are cannon fodder, guardsmen not so much.
Conscripts are the half trained off the ship troops cobbled together in a hurry; with minimal resources committed to their training.

Given the resources necessary for getting a trooper from the level of a conscript up to the quality of full blown guardsmen it makes little sense to commit them to cannon fodder over the less trained troops which are ten times more plentiful.

This is not to say that Guardsmen do not get sacrificed. Its just to say that it isn't the primary purpose to use them as cannon fodder.

Not all Guardsmen are trained well mind you, but it would be stupid to consider them 'fodder'. Their commanders might treat them as fodder, and consider their weapons more valuable than their lives (just see the Munitorium Manual of the Siege of Vraks book), but that doesn't make them bad soldiers or poorly trained soncripts.

Conscripts are represented in the rules, so you can see what an untrained human statline looks like.

BYE