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I decided to post my own thread because my ideas on a combined =][= codex is a little different and I didn't want to contribute to the back and forth the previous thread devolved into.

I approach this idea with the following tenets:

1. There probably wouldn't be any stand alone SOB or GK or Deathwatch codexes. As much as I would like there to be.
2. The list has to stand on its own but provide a player the option to go "pure" in the army choices (similar to the Chaos codex).
3. Keep to the streamlining of 5th edition books.
4. Make every unit useful and unique.

Part of the design philosophy of this list was to make each "ordos" have a better defined army role similar to how Chaos differentiates between the different Chaos deities in what kind of battlefield role the "dedicate" units have. So here is how I defined them; Grey Knights are elite close combat units, Sisters of Battle are Elite Close Range Shooting units, and Deathwatch are Elite mobile shooty units.

So here is the proposed list, this is very WIP, so take that into consideration. Have fun:


Army Special Rules:

Sister of Battle: Faith Points (work as now)

Grey Knights: The Aegis (5+ Invulnerable Save), Nemesis Weapons (Power Weapons), Purge the Deamon (Any unit that counts as a Deamon can't make any saves (including Invulnerable) against attacks caused in close combat), Rities of Exorcism (Any physic power that effects or targets the squad is ignored on a 4+), Teleport Attack (Grey Knights may Assault the turn they Deep Strike), Fearless

Psycannon and Incinerator stay the same except it ignores all saves with anything that has the "deamon" special rule.

Deathwatch: Suppression Rounds (counts as Relentless), Ammo Types (same as Sternguard Vets), Fearless

Physic Powers:

Holocost - same as now

Excommunicate - Choose a unit within 18" to take a -2 Pinning Test

Banishment - Choose a unit within 18", all friendly units get Preferred enemy against this unit for the game turn.

His Will Be Done - The Inquisator and any unit he is with or joins re-rolls all failed to hit and to wound rolls.

Purge the Deamon (=][= with the seal of the Ordo Malleus only) - Any Deamon in close combat with the =][= or any unit he joins, always strike at Int. 1

Purge the Witch (=][= with the seal of the Ordo Hereticus only) - Every model in any unit having or containing a Psyker within 18" take an immediate Str. 6 AP - wounds. Now invulnerable saves may be taked against this attack.

Purge the Alien (=][= with the seal of the Ordo Xenos only) - Range 18" Str. 7 AP 4 Large Blast, no cover saves.



The List:

-HQ-

Ordo Inquisator Lord (same stats but BS 5):

Special Rules: Fearless, Command Authority (confers his leadership to any unit with 18"), Iron Will (ignors any Leadership modifiers in close combat). Automatically gets the four basic powers.

Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon

May Exchange Bolt Pistol for: Plasma Pistol, Inferno Pistol, Hand Flamer, or Combi-Weapon

May Exchange Power Weapon for: Honor Blade, Digital Weapons (Rending Power Weapon), Force Weapon, Brazer of Holy Fire (Power Weapon that can be use once per game as a Flamer)

May take one of the following seals: Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, or Ordo Xenos And can replace one power with the one that is specific to that order.

May take Orde specific wargear.

Must take 3 - 6 Henchmen.


Cannoness - Same as now, Blessed Weapon becomes a Master Crafter Honor Blade, Evisorator. Bears the seal of the Ordo Hereticus.

Grey Knight Grand Master - Same as now, Bears the seal of the Ordo Malleus

Deathwatch Captian - Same as new Space Marine Captian. Bears the seal of the Ordo Hereticus.


-Elites-

Deathwatch Terminators - PF and SB. Has the same Heavy Weapon options as standard.

Grey Knight Terminators - Armed with Honor Blades.

Celestian Squad - Same as now.

Arco Flagellents - Has Rage, Power Weapons, Fleet, Feel No Pain, and Stim Ingectors (+D3 attacks on the charge). Can take a Preist upgrade as part of the unit entry.

Sister Repentia - Has Rage, Evisorators, Feel No Pain. Can purchase a Mistress that can negate rage.

Dreadnought - Standard entry for either Deathwatch or GK versions.

Assassin- One entry to rule them all.

-Troops-

=][= Storm Troopers - Cheaper. Can get Infiltrate and Deep Strike. Has Teleport Homers and a Deployable beacon.

Deathwatch Squad - Suspression Rounds, may take Heavy Bolter or Missle Launcher 9both benefit from relentless). Variable Squad size. Can Deep strike, has access to Rhino and Drop Pod.

Power Armored Grey Knight - Gains Points Increase

Battle Sisters Squad - Same as now. May be able to take more special weapons.

Inducted Guard Platoon - Same as Codex IG

-Fast Attack-

Deathwatch Tempest Pod - Drop Pod that drops Assault Cannons (Forgeworld)

Seraphim Squad - Same as now.

Purgation Squad - Grey Knight Squad that can have 4 special Weapons

Penitent Engines - Rage, Fleet, Armor 11, more attacks. Same cost.

-Heavy Support-

Land Raider Redeemer - Same as Codex SM. Can be either Deathwatch or Grey Knights.

Land Raider - Same as Codex SM. Can be either Deathwatch or Grey Knights.

Leman Russ - Same as Codex IG. No Variants.

Exorcist - Same as now.

Retributor Squad - Same as now.

Deathwatch Devastators - Same as standard Deathwatch, just can take 4 Heavy Weapons, but restricted to Heavy Bolter/ Missle Launcher but they have suppression rounds.





So there you have it. Just my rough draft, but what do you think?

Not a bad start. I don't like the Deathwatch Tempest Pod as the DW's Fast Attack choice - I think it's a fairly useless unit. I'd replace it with Deathwatch Land Speeders - with suppression rounds! (Wheeee!)

I thought about that. I was trying to keep the Deathwatch theme to a really deep strike/drop pod dependent force. More so then standard Space Marines. I guess Land Speeders work to.


Here where my thoughts on the Grey Knights weapons. I think that instead of having one weapon that does three things, why not just have 3 different Weapons.

Nemesis Force Weapon - Force Weapon that adds +2 Str.
Honor Blades - 2 Handed Power Weapon that adds +2 Str.
Power Weapon

And be done with it.

Here is the Power Armored Grek Knight Unit Entry:

Grey Knights _____________________200 Points:
Grey Knight WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+
Grey Knight Justicar WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv 3+

Unit Composition:
Grey Knight Justicar and 4 Grey Knights

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Power Armor, Power Weapon, Storm Bolter. The Justicar is armed with an Honor Blade in addition to the rest of the Wargear.

Special Rules: The Aegis (5+ Inv.), Purge the Deamon, Rities of Exorcism, Deepstrike, Teleport Attack, Fearless

Options:
-The Squad may include up to five additional Grey Knights at 35 Points a piece.
- Up to two members of the Squad can replace their Storm Bolter with either a Incinerator at +10 points or a Psycannon at +20 Points.
- The Justicar may exchange his Honor Blade with an Eviserator at no additional points cost.
- The Justicar may purchase Meltabombs at +5 points.

Don't allow Deathwatch to Deep Strike without a Pod, otherwise they step on toes of the GK's far too much.

BYE

I disagree. By defining the rolls of each unit in the army list, you create a clear choice between the two without whether or not they can deep stike being an issue.

Teleportation is the GK shtick.

Deathwatch are Marines gathered together from lots of Chapters. Drop Pod assault is what they'd be used to (more often than not).

BYE

What, GK Termies get honour blades instead of Force weapons, and the former are two-handed? That's silly, PAGKs would be better in CC. Nemesises for termies now please.
Like I suggested before, different HQs should unlock different FOC choices. E.g. You can't have a canoness leading a pure GK army.

But you could have an Inquistor leading a pure GK army.

So IMO, the easiest thing is to simply mandate the Inquisitor Lord.

Then you can Fluff anything to explain the army.

Mandate? As in make him a 1+ choice, so every army has to have him? Bad idea there.

What about a full GK or DW army. Oh I forgot, you'd rather they didn't exist at all.

Well ok then, what about your precious Sisters, DD? Can't do a pure Sisters army if they have to bring an Inquisitor Lord to every battle now can you?

BYE

I think that making Inquisitor Lords a mandatory choice isn't necessary, he should just be made just good enough that a player would almost always want one.

I think Drop Pods should be the only way to deep strike DW. Without the added protection of terminator armor or aegis suits anyone teleporting fluffwise would arrive dead.

A landspeeder of some sort would definitely be more practical than a special drop pod, but would still maintain that rapid deployability. The addition of a rule allowing a re-roll for its reserve check and or deviation roll on deep strike might also be an appropriate way to create a DW feel.

Let's see...

First, the Inquisitor should replace Iron Will with Stubborn. Secondly, why does the Inquisitor have Iron Will at all, if he's Fearless?

I think HBMC's right - DW shouldn't be able to Deep-Strike. I think they should have the Scouts special rule - this lets them use the Outflank special rule, which I think is more fitting.

I question the idea that GK Purgation Squads are suitable for Fast Attack. Was this supposed to be Heavy Support...?

I can only assume that the DW Captain is supposed to bear the Seal of Ordo Xenos. What exactly do these Seals do?

Cheese Elemental - Honour Blades give the GK Termies +2 Strength, which would be on top of their considerable A 3. Remember, the PAGK are just wielding Power Weapons - they're not Strength 6 anymore.

I think Digital Weapons should be something different. I'm thinking something along the lines of I 10 during the first round of close combat, and Offensive Grenades.

What, GK Termies get honour blades instead of Force weapons, and the former are two-handed? That's silly, PAGKs would be better in CC. Nemesises for termies now please.
Like I suggested before, different HQs should unlock different FOC choices. E.g. You can't have a canoness leading a pure GK army.

When has Grey Knight Terminators ever have Force Weapons outside of the characters.

And I think HQ choices "unlocking" unit selections not only goes against the 5th Edition design philosophy, but is counter intitive to ease of list building.

Teleportation is the GK shtick.

Deathwatch are Marines gathered together from lots of Chapters. Drop Pod assault is what they'd be used to (more often than not).

BYE

Maybe you are right. What if Deathwatch only have Drop Pods as a transport option.

But you could have an Inquistor leading a pure GK army.

So IMO, the easiest thing is to simply mandate the Inquisitor Lord.

Then you can Fluff anything to explain the army.

Mandating Lords would be a bad idea, even from a simple combat patrol standpoint.

I think that making Inquisitor Lords a mandatory choice isn't necessary, he should just be made just good enough that a player would almost always want one.

I think Drop Pods should be the only way to deep strike DW. Without the added protection of terminator armor or aegis suits anyone teleporting fluffwise would arrive dead.

A landspeeder of some sort would definitely be more practical than a special drop pod, but would still maintain that rapid deployability. The addition of a rule allowing a re-roll for its reserve check and or deviation roll on deep strike might also be an appropriate way to create a DW feel.

I think you are right. Is there any other FA Deathwing choices that should be added. I am trying to keep Serephim as the only Jump Troops.

Mahu wrote:When has Grey Knight Terminators ever have Force Weapons outside of the characters.

They all have Force Weapons, and their level of psychic strength and training determines how lethal they are.

For regular GK Marines, they use the psychic energy to boost the hitting power of their blades. For Justicars and Terminators, their enhanced psychic abilities and greater levels of control allow them to shatter armour with their blades. And for the mighty Grand Masters? Well they can drain the life from their foes, so advanced are their psychic abilities.

They've all got Force Weapons.

BYE

Mahu wrote:Maybe you are right. What if Deathwatch only have Drop Pods as a transport option.

They're Marines gathered together from Codex Chapters. The best way to make units effective when they all come from various places with various different customs is to use the most common elements between all of them.

So if you've got a Crimson Fist, a Space Wolf, two Black Templars, an Ultramarine, a Raven Guard Marine, a Dark Angel, two Mentor Legion Marines and a Doom Eagle, you need these guys to work together. They're all going to have different ways of working, so you must take the most base elements of their combat doctrine and emphasise those.

For this reason, removing Rhinos doesn't really make a lot of sense. The idea would have to be to use them as Marines whilst teaching them the skills necessary for their particular secondment. Anything specific to the missions gets taught to them, the rest is Codex Astartes through and through.

BYE

I think HBMC has it right in regards to the Deathwatch functioning around the idea of Chapter cooperation.

The further difference in the function between Grey Knights and Deathwatch is that the Grey Knights are over prepared against a single sort of enemy while Deathwatch are tactically flexible and custom tailored to each threat. Deathwatch more than Grey Knights are about the options they can select from to optimize themselves for a particular xenos threat.

As a minor adjustment I think Deathwatch Terminators should receive Combi-bolters instead of storm bolters this allows you to allow them access to the same Sternguard ammo you've given the basic Deathwatch squad while keeping them in line with the aspect of the rule that disallows the special ammo in Storm Bolters.

On my Codex Inquisition thread we discussed the ammo options for Deathwatch to use with the missile launcher; we came up with two missiles to replace the standard missiles:
Hellstorm Missile R48" S5 AP5 Heavy 1 Blast (wounds on 2+ regardless of Toughness)
Inferno Missile R48" S8 AP1 (allow re-roll for penetration)

You asked for a recommendation on other Deathwatch Fast Attack options. In the same way Sternguard are a tip of the hat to the shooting component of the Deathwatch Killteam, something could be done in a similar way with a Vanguard squad to create a Fast Attack Jump Pack unit, also if you opt to take away the close combat options of a Deathwatch Kill Team to bring them in line more with sternguard, this new assault unit might be the better place for those weapon options.

You didn't mention it, but I think its important to keep Deathwatch Captains in each of the Deathwatch squads, it goes a long way to balancing the potency of Deathwatch vs Grey Knights.

I realize you don't want to prohibit units by having an unlockable unit structure, but their should be some special rule that provides a gentle nudge in the direction of all SoB, GK, or DW. This might be something like a particular army wide rule who's full benefit only kicks in with a full army of one particular chamber millitant. For example, with the SoB their Faith Point system creates a situation where it more beneficial to the army as a whole to have more SoB in it; the more SoB the more faith points. For Grey Knights you might make it some modified version of the shrouding, like rolling 3d6 multiply by 3 and subtract X, where X is double the number of Grey Knight units. For Deathwatch it might be more difficult as they lack the supernatural aspect of the other two ordos... but it might be something like coordinated fire or something like the tau marklight where units can function together to more accurately direct fire.

Wow, a lot of great ideas! Soon I will go back and start updating the original thread to keep a running tally of the lists and the changes.

As a side note here is the Inquisator:

Seals of the Inquisition:

An Inquisitor grows through the ranks of one of the three Ordos. Higher level Inquisitors are given an official seal befitting their rank in their Ordos. An Inquisitor in the army list may be given one of the three seals which gives them access to Ordo specific wargear, however, as sign of their chosen path, they rarely interact with chambers militant of other ordos. An Inquisitor with a seal may only join those units that are part of his Chamber militant command, or are not assigned.

-HQ Choice-

Inquisitor Lord__________________________ 100 Points
Inquisitor Lord WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W1 I4 A3 Ld10 Sv 3+

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Power Armor, Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Psychic Hood, Iron Halo.

Special Rules: Fearless, Command Authority (confers his leadership to any unit with 18"), Iron Will (ignores any Leadership modifiers in close combat with any unit he joins as well), Independent Character

Psychic Powers: Holocost, Excommunicate, Banishment, His Will Be Done

Options:
- May exchange all his wargear for a Power Weapon, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armor, Psychic Hood, and Iron Halo for +20 Points.
- May exchange his Power Weapon for Digital Weapons at +5 Points (adds rending), a Honor Blade at +10 Points, or a Force Weapon at +20 points
- May exchange his Bolt Pistol for a Bolter at +5 Points, a Combi-weapon at +10 Points, or a Plasma Pistol at +15 Points.
- May exchange his Power Armor for Artificer Armor at +10 Points.
- Regardless of his Wargear choices you may add a Seal of the Ordo Malleus, Seal of the Ordo Hereticus, or Seal of the Ordo Xenos for +20 Points

If equipped with a Seal of the Ordo Malleus, you may use the following options:
- May exchange his Power Weapon for a Deamon Hammer at +20 Points
- May exchange his Bolt Pistol or Storm Bolter with a Storm Shield at +10 Points.
- May be equipped with the Grimnore of True Names at +10 Points.
- May exchange any psychic power with the Purge the Deamon power at no points cost.

If equipped with a Seal of the Ordo Hereticus, you may use the following options:
- May exchange his Power Weapon with the Hammer of the Witches (Thunder Hammer that ignores Inv. Saves) at +20 Points.
- May exchange his Bolt Pistol with a Hand Flamer at +5 Points, or an Inferno Pistol at +10 Points
- May exchange his Storm Bolter with a Combi-weapon at +5 Points.
- May exchange any psychic power with the Purge the Witch power at no points cost.

If equipped with a Seal of the Ordo Xenos, you may use the following options:
- May exchange his Power Weapon with the Xenos Lash (Power Weapon that number of attacks equal number of enemy models within 2" of him) at +20 Points.
- May exchange his Bolt Pistol with a Hand Flamer at +5, or a Plasma Rifle (Range 18", Str. 7, AP 2, Assault 2) at +15 Points.
- May exchange his Power Weapon and Storm Bolter for a pair of Lighting Claws at +20 Points.
- May exchange any psychic power with the Purge the Alien power at no points cost.



Now all I need to add are Henchmen, what do you guys recomment?

Small addition is that a Ordo Xenos Inquisitor should have access to a needle pistol. The fluff has said on more than one occasion that the needle weapons are the choice weapon of the ordo xenos... even the Deathwatch Hellfire round is based on the mutagenic acid technology of needle weapons.

This is what I had come up with for Inquisitor Seals and Henchmen:

An Inquisitor must take a Ordo Seal:
Seal of the Ordo Hereticus: Preferred Enemy against any model with a Psychic power.
Seal of the Ordo Malleus: Preferred Enemy against any Daemonic Unit.
Seal of the Ordo Xenos: Preferred Enemy against Eldar, Necron, Tyranid, and Ork model with “Monstrous Creature” or possesses an Invulnerable save.

This is the modified version of the Inquisitor Retinue Henchmen Choices:

-Any Inquisitorial Retinue may take a number of the following:
The Acolyte (+8pts) A wound on Inq. may be allocated to Acolyte; May take 15 pts of wargear
The Familiar (+6pts) Inq. +1I, +1 Psychic pwr; Loses Las-pistol
The Sage (+10pts) Inq. +1BS, Unit may reroll to hit shooting roll
The Pariah (+12 pts) Any daemonic unit or unit with a psychic power trying to shoot the retinue must follow night fighting rules.
The Warrior (+10pts) Inq. +1 WS; +1 BS, Sv 4+, targeter, frag, krak, Hellgun or Hell Pistol and CCW; Upgrades: Flamer +5, Plasma Gun +10, Meltagun +10, PFist&CCW +15, MM+25, HB +15, 0-1 PC +35

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Hereticus may take:
The Chirurgeon (+12) Ignore first wound (may change to feel no pain)
The Crusader (+20pts) Inq. +1 WS (does not stack with Warrior); +1WS, PW and Supression Shield

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Hereticus may take:
The Penitent (+7pts) Psychic protection; Lose Las-pistol

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Malleus may take:
The Heirophant (+8pts) Inq.+1LD, Makes daemons move as if through difficult terrain to assault
The Mystic (+6pts) Free shooting attack on Deep Striking Daemon

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Malleus may take:
The Medium (+10pts) Force daemon to re-roll reserve

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Xenos may take:
The Magos (+25pts) May re-roll d6 for AP; Has Power Armor, Power Weapon, Servo Arm
The Rogue Trader (+20pts) Unit gains Furious Charge

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Xenos may take:
The Xenos (+15 pts) Unit gains Acute Sense; Death-arc (re-roll to wound; R24 S3 AP – Assault 2)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mahu wrote:When has Grey Knight Terminators ever have Force Weapons outside of the characters.

They all have Force Weapons, and their level of psychic strength and training determines how lethal they are.

For regular GK Marines, they use the psychic energy to boost the hitting power of their blades. For Justicars and Terminators, their enhanced psychic abilities and greater levels of control allow them to shatter armour with their blades. And for the mighty Grand Masters? Well they can drain the life from their foes, so advanced are their psychic abilities.

They've all got Force Weapons.

Hm. While I've been a fan of the GK since RT days, when DH was released and they had the PA GKs with their down-powered CCWs, I was pretty disappointed. While I'd personally prefer to keep GKs as Terminators, I recognize that PA GKs now hold a place in GW canon and so I'm not going to argue that they go away - there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. I would say that rather than doing that, I'd like to see a general return of the Nemesis Force Weapon. Everyone gets them. If you're a GK, you get a Nemesis Force Weapon. And none of this goofy wrist-mounted storm bolter. Stormbolter's mounted in the Force Weapon. I'm not sure how to balance the costs and other special weapon options, but I just feel very strongly about Nemesis Force Weapons - stupid, I know, but that's just my feeling on the GKs.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hm. While I've been a fan of the GK since RT days, when DH was released and they had the PA GKs with their down-powered CCWs, I was pretty disappointed.

Same. I was a *huge* fan of the GK right until they got the wrist guns - the changeover in C: DH pretty much killed GK for me. That's why my grey Marines are now "Knights Sovereign".

The way I see it, all GK are like SM Veterans. SM Vets can field as Termies, but also as Sternguard or Vanguard in PA. So GK can be similar with some in PA and others in TDA.

Death By Monkeys wrote:While I'd personally prefer to keep GKs as Terminators, I recognize that PA GKs now hold a place in GW canon and so I'm not going to argue that they go away - there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Tell that to the Squat players...

Death By Monkeys wrote:I would say that rather than doing that, I'd like to see a general return of the Nemesis Force Weapon. Everyone gets them. If you're a GK, you get a Nemesis Force Weapon.

I'd be good with that. One set of rules would be easier: S6 Power Weapons for everyone, with Librarians having S6 Force Weapons.

Death By Monkeys wrote:And none of this goofy wrist-mounted storm bolter. Stormbolter's mounted in the Force Weapon. I'm not sure how to balance the costs and other special weapon options, but I just feel very strongly about Nemesis Force Weapons - stupid, I know, but that's just my feeling on the GKs.

I thought it is an integrated Bolt *Pistol*, not an integrated Storm Bolter...

JohnHwangDD wrote:I thought it is an integrated Bolt *Pistol*, not an integrated Storm Bolter...

You are correct - see how long it's been since I dealt with the original GK rules?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:While I'd personally prefer to keep GKs as Terminators, I recognize that PA GKs now hold a place in GW canon and so I'm not going to argue that they go away - there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Tell that to the Squat players...

GW didn't put them back in the genie bottle. GW took the squats ran them through a blender poured their viscous residue into a flaming bag with some doggy fecal matter, to which they were just kind enough to leave outside our front door after ringing the door bell; to that moment we all nostalgically look back with a laugh. Oh that moment where we brought our collective foot down to extinguish said flames on said bag of poop. Good laughs. I never had a squat army, I just think it was unfair to get rid of them the way they did.

The grey knights are a full chapter and their most recently inducted Knights need to start somewhere; giving your newest recruit a suit of the ancient and treasured Terminator Armor wouldn't make too much sense. The fresher more green grey knights in power armor would probably deal with the small problems like a possession, leaving only the more experienced terminator armored ones to be dispatched to help deal with full fledged daemons. Scarce resources dictate the ability to use escalating force. Point is its reasonable to have varying levels of troops.

Power Armour GKs and Wrist-Storm Bolters are part of the game now, and a good one at that - the PA GK models are fantastic. Accept it, move on, and write the Codex accordingly.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:- the PA GK models are fantastic.

Yuck. Ick. I respectfully disagree. I think they look particularly cartoony. But, as I said earlier, I accept that PA GKs are now canon.

Power armor GK are ok models nothing special but not bad either. Half the people I know who play 40k like them half don't... there not great but they aren't bad, its a matter of personal preference. When it comes to bad models I just think back to how many times GW tried possessed chaos marines before they got them decent.

Power Armour GKs and Wrist-Storm Bolters are part of the game now, and a good one at that - the PA GK models are fantastic. Accept it, move on, and write the Codex accordingly.

This pretty much sums up my opinions on the matter.

Small addition is that a Ordo Xenos Inquisitor should have access to a needle pistol. The fluff has said on more than one occasion that the needle weapons are the choice weapon of the ordo xenos... even the Deathwatch Hellfire round is based on the mutagenic acid technology of needle weapons.

This is what I had come up with for Inquisitor Seals and Henchmen:

An Inquisitor must take a Ordo Seal:
Seal of the Ordo Hereticus: Preferred Enemy against any model with a Psychic power.
Seal of the Ordo Malleus: Preferred Enemy against any Daemonic Unit.
Seal of the Ordo Xenos: Preferred Enemy against Eldar, Necron, Tyranid, and Ork model with “Monstrous Creature” or possesses an Invulnerable save.

This is the modified version of the Inquisitor Retinue Henchmen Choices:

-Any Inquisitorial Retinue may take a number of the following:
The Acolyte (+8pts) A wound on Inq. may be allocated to Acolyte; May take 15 pts of wargear
The Familiar (+6pts) Inq. +1I, +1 Psychic pwr; Loses Las-pistol
The Sage (+10pts) Inq. +1BS, Unit may reroll to hit shooting roll
The Pariah (+12 pts) Any daemonic unit or unit with a psychic power trying to shoot the retinue must follow night fighting rules.
The Warrior (+10pts) Inq. +1 WS; +1 BS, Sv 4+, targeter, frag, krak, Hellgun or Hell Pistol and CCW; Upgrades: Flamer +5, Plasma Gun +10, Meltagun +10, PFist&CCW +15, MM+25, HB +15, 0-1 PC +35

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Hereticus may take:
The Chirurgeon (+12) Ignore first wound (may change to feel no pain)
The Crusader (+20pts) Inq. +1 WS (does not stack with Warrior); +1WS, PW and Supression Shield

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Hereticus may take:
The Penitent (+7pts) Psychic protection; Lose Las-pistol

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Malleus may take:
The Heirophant (+8pts) Inq.+1LD, Makes daemons move as if through difficult terrain to assault
The Mystic (+6pts) Free shooting attack on Deep Striking Daemon

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Malleus may take:
The Medium (+10pts) Force daemon to re-roll reserve

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Xenos may take:
The Magos (+25pts) May re-roll d6 for AP; Has Power Armor, Power Weapon, Servo Arm
The Rogue Trader (+20pts) Unit gains Furious Charge

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Xenos may take:
The Xenos (+15 pts) Unit gains Acute Sense; Death-arc (re-roll to wound; R24 S3 AP – Assault 2)

I really like all of these ideas. The only thing I see it that I think the henchmen need to be more simplified. I will post my version later.

I want to address Grey Knight Weapons:

1. First off, I want to avoid having one weapon with three different functions like we do now.
2. I think making them all +2 Str. Power Weapons across the board is a bad idea because it will make PA GK too cost prohibitive.

So here is my compromise, Nemeses Force Weapons come in three different forms:

1. Power Weapons - The armament of basic PA Grey Knights
2. Nemesis Weapons - Power Weapon that adds +2 Str. Basic Armament of PA Justicar and Grey Knight Terminators
3. Nemesis Force Weapons - Force Weapon that adds +2 Str. Basic Armament of Brother Captians and Grand Masters

As I posted earlier, I think the best PA Grey Knight is a 35 point model that has a storm bolter, power weapon, 2 attacks base, +5 Inv. and can assault after he deepstrikes.

As a DH player I like a lot of the ideas here.

I don't like the three different weapon ideas though. The fluff indicates that all GK's are armed with Nemesis Force Weapons. I think the current armament table works fine and doesn't need changing. Personally, I wouldn't pay 35pts per GK. Its too expensive and not needed. The primary target for GK's is obviously daemons and awarding PW's and 5+ Inv's wouldn't add to their effectiveness against them. Most daemons don't ignore saves and all have invulnerables saves negating the worth of PW's. Against both daemons and other armies, I would much prefer to cause my opponent to make more saves than ignore them. Hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's is fantastic and is point cost effective.

As for 2 base attacks I agree, but I think that assaulting after deepstriking should be a rule given only to Fast Attack GK choices (assuming the new codex gives no new GK Fast Attack options). The adjustment to allow DH units to ignore daemonic invulnerables I've been harping on about for ages and this would offset the need for power weapons. Although for game balance issues I would also like to point out 'Sustained Assault' would have to make some form of reincarnation in order to make daemon armies still viable against GK's/DH's. I also like the suggested changes to henchmen. Opening up different henchmen to the different branches of the Inquisition adds a nice touch.

My suggestions include opening up drop pods to all GK units, changing 'The Shrouding' to a 5+ or 6+ inv (as opposed to Aegis armour, which affects daemons and psychic powers directly), retaining True Grit, and bringing GK characters in line with the new SM codex. That would mean WS6 (WS5 for BCapt) and Icon of the Just (as standard). Increasing BCapt's wounds to 2 and creating Terminator Sgt's (or GK equivilent) to cover the loss of GKTerminator unit leaders.

Apologies for grammar and spelling. Just finished a night shift .

I'm gonna try to stay in "yay fluff!" mode here so if I accidentally deviate into one of my more usual "*******ed ******** can't write ****ing wargame rules if you stuck them to a bayonette and shoved it up their collective ****holes."

The one thing I think the OP should change is to say that the Psycannon and Incinerator REVERT to being an assault cannon and a heavy flamer, except with the ability that Daemons can't make saves of any kind against either weapon. With rending nerfed and most fluff-minded house rules type folks (or so I'd believe) agreeing that having a Psycannon cut through cover or firing "seeker" bolts that can knock a speeding, jinking jetbiker from his saddle, I don't see why in a world where rules were written by democracy we wouldn't just treat these weapons exactly as their normal counterparts except with anti-Daemonic properties.

Also: a lot of the fluff on the Deathwatch tends to show them as being more techinically proficient or something like that when compared to the hoary old traditions of the Techmarines et al. BUT if we're looking at them as the Puritan OX pet army, wouldn't they therefore avoid all innovation as suspicious and probably based in the attitudes of some lot of suspicious-seeming effiminate extraterrestrials? IMHO it would be cool - if maybe a bit of a stretch in an all-inclusive style list, rather than Johnny's "servants of the Imperium" style allied codex, if both SOB and Deathwatch had power-armoured counterparts who followed the Radical line of argument in the same way the Relictors and Exorcists (not sure if they're a canon chapter but I don't mean the rocket tank) function as a counterpart to the GK.

Having had a minor brainstorm (and another sip of coffee) while typing that, what about going for a Chaos-style marking system on Inquisition MEQs? The existing ones - SOB, GK, Death Watch - could be rewritten as being "marked" Puritan and respectively OH, OM and OX. There's all ready Relictors and Exorcists (not to repeat myself too much...) for the OM Radical pet MEQs. For OH Radical MEQs ("Sisters of Peace") maybe they'd be a punch of power armoured punk girls with minor psychic powers on the sergeant. OX Radical MEQs (I dunno, "Life Watch") would basically be normal Space Marines with the option of taking whatever weapons they liked. Maybe their Ancients would have tail maces and prism cannons, that's how wild and crazy I would see these guys. Respectively they'd be as comfortable working with mutants, escapees from Puritan Black Ships, Rogue Psykers, Genestealer Hybrids, Eldar and Ork Mercenaries as Radical OM are with Daemonhosts. It would flesh out a sort of "fluff hole" in the list IMHO.

Just a thought.

Well if you created counterparts for each Chamber militant for radical inquisitors I don't believe they have to be strictly MEQ's. For example the Radical Xeno's counterpart to Deathwatch would probably just be Xenos mercenaries of some sort and for SoB mutants. I think the Exorcist chapter fits best as a GK counterpart over Revilers; Exorcists would be more interesting because they aren't just a tactical squad with a daemon weapon like the Revilers, Exorcists are relatively unique to the Imperium because its the only way to field possessed space marines.

I think that each Radical counterpart should be bringing something new to the list that the Chamber militant don't. Like for Xenos mercenaries, something along the lines that Kroot had in their stand alone list; which made them very pliable and flexible.

I do think the Ordo Hereticus is the hardest to come up with a counterpart. I don't think the radicals should all be MEQ's it makes them all too similar and removes the radical feel from that aspect of the army. Witch hunters I'm thinking mutants or psychic vampires; I think I'd want to stay away from mutants as that would just make a cannon fodder unit that I could see any ordo using.

Orisis wrote:My suggestions include opening up drop pods to all GK units, changing 'The Shrouding' to a 5+ or 6+ inv (as opposed to Aegis armour, which affects daemons and psychic powers directly), retaining True Grit, and bringing GK characters in line with the new SM codex. That would mean WS6 (WS5 for BCapt) and Icon of the Just (as standard). Increasing BCapt's wounds to 2 and creating Terminator Sgt's (or GK equivilent) to cover the loss of GKTerminator unit leaders.

Amen! I've wanted to do Drop Pod GK even since FAGK became non-scoring. I think all GKs should have an invulnerable save as well.

Why do GK need drop pods when they can all deepstrike by teleporter? Drop pods are basically a 35-50 pt premium to deepstrike conventional units; why would you pay for something that allows you to do what you can already do.

If your going to do the shrouding as a save you should make it a full 4+ cover save. I however think that the shrouding as its written is more powerful than a 5+ or 6+ save because what is proposed makes it harder to score a successful wound while the current rules make it potentially impossible to be shot at at all. A psychic veil of sorts would hide you not create a force field.