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Palin recited from her memorized script, dodged and redirected questions to get back to her script, and at one point basically admitted to it openly. She still bungled badly on Iraq and Afghanistan, though Biden was a gentleman and didn’t say anything when she mistook Gen. McKiernan’s name three times, or couldn’t remember that we had NATO allies in both countries. She repeated that ridiculous argument about the war funding votes that made McCain look stupid and deceitful Friday. She made false statements about taxes and healthcare. But she didn’t completely embarrass herself the way she did in her national interviews, so it’s still better than expected of her.

Biden was great. Articulate (you can barely tell he used to stutter), intelligent, experienced. Direct and honest. Human. When he talked about his family and his son you knew that he gets it. He still wasn’t perfect- he was off on a few numbers, and really should have made the point about Adghanistan rebuilding expenditures more clearly. But the point was still there.

I worked 13.5hrs yesterday and felt barely alive when I got home. But I didn't fall asleep on my couch this time. After the debate I still stayed up to watch commentary on CNN, ABC, BBC, and MSNBC. It’s nice to have candidates I can feel so good about, after the disappointment of Kerry.

Mannahnin wrote:

Biden was great. Articulate (you can barely tell he used to stutter), intelligent, experienced. Direct and honest as much as a politician can be. Human. When he talked about his family and his son you knew that he gets it. He still wasn’t perfect- he was off on a few numbers, and really should have made the point about Adghanistan rebuilding expenditures more clearly. But the point was still there.

I worked 13.5hrs yesterday and felt barely alive when I got home. But I didn't fall asleep on my couch this time. After the debate I still stayed up to watch commentary on CNN, ABC, BBC, and MSNBC. It’s nice to have candidates I can feel so good about, after the disappointment of Kerry.

Fixed your typo

Agreed, why is this man not heading the Democratic ticket?

Because Obama has even more charisma. Because Obama articulated his points of disagreement with Bush, and his plans for the future, earlier and more eloquently. Because people are desperate for a change, and let’s face it- Joe Biden is not as obvious an agent of change as Barack Obama.

As an Independent raised Libertarian but having grown up liberal, I have a lot of contempt for and disappointment with both major political parties. I sure can’t say that Obama or Biden are perfect. But they’re both pretty darn good. Honestly inspiring at times.

I do miss the old McCain from 2000. That guy was a good guy. Before Rove Swift Boated him in the primaries. Before he decided he had to bend and break his principles, and kowtow to the worst elements of his party to run for President again. The old McCain wouldn’t have made the cynical choice to pick someone like Sarah Palin out of pure political expediency. We’re talking about a 72 year old with a history of Melanoma. And he’s going to put this terribly underqualified person into the position of inheriting his seat. It’s genuinely scary.

No doubting Biden won (polls certainly suggest that as well) but she didn't fall on her face either. One thing Biden did well was to tie McCain to Bush...and she failed to divorce the two. Biden also showed a considerable amount of experience...which will help Obama.

Best Bident moment; Healthcare reform/retort and choking up on memories of accident
Worst Biden moment; When she was attacking his record, he looked over with a grin a mile wide. It had a look of 'Oh look sweetie, I've been around too long to let you get me upset'. While I laughed, some women may not.

Best Palin moment; Not falling, pretty much every line was a notecard talking point. Perhaps her closing?
Worst Palin moment; After Senator Biden choked up...awkward pause...John McCain is a maverick! Made her look very callous and reinforced the notion she was spouting talking points.

I was sick of the work maverick by the end of the night. I kept contrasting that with the clip of McCain saying that he voted with the president 90% of the time...

I suspect that Palin's inexperience gives her a "down home" quality that a lot of middle Americans will like.

Yeh Doggone it. I was half expecting her to break out in Golly gee willikers Biden those is big words yer usin as she winks at him. Did she even directly answer a moderator question the whole night? She kept hammering energy this and that. A lot of fluff and smoke screen mirrors IMO.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching the impact of partisan paradigms on objective reporting following the debate.

For the 20-30 minutes I watched, it wasn't much of a debate, but that was the format provided. I am a huge Biden fan, and he effectively avoided missteps. Palin did what her party wanted her to do, and she showed a lot of charisma doing it.

And we'll talk in a year after inauguration to see what an agent of change Obama is (assuming he wins, which I do). I suspect he'll lean pretty heavily on Biden's experience, and the media and his adoring fans will learn that the presidency is not an office for change, but rather an office for stability. I predict a medium sized backlash against Obama, not based on any failing of his, but on the halo the media has thrown around his head based solely on his charisma and ability to speak. He will be unable to live up to their lofty (and unreasonable) expectations of him, and as such, will suffer a bit from it.

The President being this guy or that guy might make you feel better, but aside from the Supreme Court nominations, he doesn't do nearly as much as many Americans (and foreign friends) think.

Regarding that partisan paradigm...legitimate scientific studies have shown that a partisan thought process actually shuts down part of your thinking process. Like being a dedficated sports fan for a specific team, people will willfully disbelieve actual evidence that does not align with the recipient of their partisan bias. It's kind of horrifiying thinking that both parties engender that in otherwise rational and intelligent people. It's a major reason why our discourse in this country is so poor. Nuance doesn't sell.

If I ever meet Sarah Palin I will punch her. She is nearly everything I hate about Middle America rolled into a detestable beauty queen package, so take my comments in that light.

Her debate performance was pathetic. She didn't struggle to concoct sentences, but any person possessing even the slightest bit of knowledge should have been able to see her 'answers' for the scripted, macabre dance they were. Taking time to give a 'shout-out' to some grade school only crystallizes my belief that she is wholly unprepared for the gravity of Federal office. This is not Alaska. This is the international arena. Here, your mistakes affect BILLIONS of lives. Withdraw from the ticket and show that you hold at least some semblance of regard for this nation.

P.S. Obviously she isn't going to withdraw from the ticket, doing so would deliver the coup de grace to McCains bid.

Kilkrazy wrote:I suspect that Palin's inexperience gives her a "down home" quality that a lot of middle Americans will like.

Didn't see the debate, but I can definitely see that. I originally liked her a lot more than McCain until I found that I have some serious problems with many of her positions.

dogma wrote:If I ever meet Sarah Palin I will punch her. She is nearly everything I hate about Middle America rolled into a detestable beauty queen package, so take my comments in that light.

Easy there Dogma. I'm sure many Middle Americans would think something similar about you for that sort of remark.

Not very sophisticated.

You guys are missing the single most important fact. What does Uncle Vlad really think of Palin.

Mannahnin wrote:Biden was great. Articulate (you can barely tell he used to stutter), intelligent, experienced. Direct and honest. Human.

Neither one of them were awe inspiring. I'd rather watch monkeys at the zoo fling stuff at each other.

I quit listening to Biden when claimed he was quoting and paraphrasing McCain in the same breath. Our state governor's race is even worse... if I have to listen to one more ad about politicians "like my" opponent I'm going to retch. Our incumbent is running a series of fake tear-jerking ads with some actor pretending to have a Jouvenile Diabetes inflicted son saying how awful it is politicians like Dino Rossi don't believe in Stem Cell Research. The only thing missing was telling me Politicians like Dino Rossi were behind Hitler's rise to power. At least Rossi is honest enough to put up a 10 second loop of Gregoire (the incumbent) making a claim, then letting the narrator refute it. Whether the narrator is telling the truth or not, I couldn't tell you. But by playing her words, at least I don't feel like he's telling me I'm too stupid to know I'm being tricked. If I'm being tricked.

And we'll talk in a year after inauguration to see what an agent of change Obama is (assuming he wins, which I do).

Agent of change, my left foot. Any politician that tells you they're going to change Washington is telling you you're a moron who should stop leaving cookies out the night of 12-24. No one politician is going to change Washington D.C. Not unless and until we abolish the political party system so there's no way to "keep score" and people have to start defending their records instead of letting the 40% of the population who always votes their party carry them on for another term.

Breton wrote:Agent of change, my left foot. Any politician that tells you they're going to change Washington is telling you you're a moron who should stop leaving cookies out the night of 12-24. No one politician is going to change Washington D.C. Not unless and until we abolish the political party system so there's no way to "keep score" and people have to start defending their records instead of letting the 40% of the population who always votes their party carry them on for another term.

Which is why the "we're gonna change Washington and Wall Street and cut out the lobbyists (except the ones I have on staff) and cut spending" fecal material coming out of McCain's campaign is just that. One does not change that which brought one to power.

Grignard wrote:

Easy there Dogma. I'm sure many Middle Americans would think something similar about you for that sort of remark.

Not very sophisticated.

I don't hate Middle Americans, I hate many of their political positions. And the general insistence that to attack someone's beliefs is tantamount to attacking them personally.

I read a transcript today.
Wouldn't go as far as to say he rocks. He was certainly leagues ahead of his competition, but considering that his competition is moronic I'm not suprised. But I felt he spent a lot of time dodging questions and tying everything back to talking points. He did well in never attacking Palin, but she deserves to be a attacked in fairness, so that seemed cynical to me.
So yeah, he may have done a good job, but he didn't impress me or make me think he's a decent person.
Still hope Obama wins, but really I doubt huge change will occur, I just think things might get a tiny bit better and at least won't get any worse.

dogma wrote:

Grignard wrote:

Easy there Dogma. I'm sure many Middle Americans would think something similar about you for that sort of remark.

Not very sophisticated.

I don't hate Middle Americans, I hate many of their political positions. And the general insistence that to attack someone's beliefs is tantamount to attacking them personally.

I was raised on a dairy in a small Kansas town. I now live in a small Missouri town. I share Dogmas disgust on her positions .

Paling kept going back to energy which got old by the second time (once was enough).

After all the build up I was expecting Biden to absolutely slaughter her, which he didn't pull off.

They need to change the format to 'Dinner for 5'

John Favreau hosting (only because I suspect Kevin Smith would hammer the republicans).
Obama
McCain
Palin
Biden

Simple questions.
Get to know the candidates.
Stay away from policies.

You get to see the people you are voting for, not the PR

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:They need to change the format to 'Dinner for 5'

John Favreau hosting (only because I suspect Kevin Smith would hammer the republicans).
Obama
McCain
Palin
Biden

Simple questions.
Get to know the candidates.
Stay away from policies.

You get to see the people you are voting for, not the PR

...if only Cronkite weren't dead.

jfrazell wrote:Agreed, why is this man not heading the Democratic ticket?

Because despite his time in the Senate he never had the profile of Clinton or Obama. Because the Democratic primary was held when opposition to the Iraq war was at its lowest, and Obama was the guy with the record of opposing the war.

And I agree, Biden was pretty impressive.

dienekes96 wrote:I thoroughly enjoyed watching the impact of partisan paradigms on objective reporting following the debate.

For the 20-30 minutes I watched, it wasn't much of a debate, but that was the format provided. I am a huge Biden fan, and he effectively avoided missteps. Palin did what her party wanted her to do, and she showed a lot of charisma doing it.

And we'll talk in a year after inauguration to see what an agent of change Obama is (assuming he wins, which I do). I suspect he'll lean pretty heavily on Biden's experience, and the media and his adoring fans will learn that the presidency is not an office for change, but rather an office for stability. I predict a medium sized backlash against Obama, not based on any failing of his, but on the halo the media has thrown around his head based solely on his charisma and ability to speak. He will be unable to live up to their lofty (and unreasonable) expectations of him, and as such, will suffer a bit from it.

The President being this guy or that guy might make you feel better, but aside from the Supreme Court nominations, he doesn't do nearly as much as many Americans (and foreign friends) think.

Regarding that partisan paradigm...legitimate scientific studies have shown that a partisan thought process actually shuts down part of your thinking process. Like being a dedficated sports fan for a specific team, people will willfully disbelieve actual evidence that does not align with the recipient of their partisan bias. It's kind of horrifiying thinking that both parties engender that in otherwise rational and intelligent people. It's a major reason why our discourse in this country is so poor. Nuance doesn't sell.

Yeah, I'm not really all that hopeful for great sweeping change in policy. I think we'll get a guy who's less likely to bomb random places.

The big thing to me is that the Democrats win the house and senate with increased majorities and take the presidency. Not because I really want to Democrats to run everything (I don't think even the Democrats really want that), but because of the effect it might have on the Republican party. There's just that slight chance that it'll cause the Republicans to look around and see what's happened, and think that maybe running a party based around meaningless soundbites on small town values and how government is bad really isn't good enough. That Palin is the final, classic example of everything that's wrong with the Republicans... nothing but empty rhetoric formed in a bubble, absolutely no real world understanding of her positions. That the party will have to start some serious debate about what it's policy really mean and what it can offer Americans. Maybe they might even return to being an actual conservative party.

But bombing random places is fun! It keeps everyone guessing!

What actually is wrong with the USA that needs changing?

The US needs to understand that resisting the influence of a superpower (the US?) does not require a nation to be a superpower (everyone else).

Hehehe

Breton wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Biden was great. Articulate (you can barely tell he used to stutter), intelligent, experienced. Direct and honest. Human.

Neither one of them were awe inspiring. I'd rather watch monkeys at the zoo fling stuff at each other.

I quit listening to Biden when claimed he was quoting and paraphrasing McCain in the same breath. Our state governor's race is even worse... if I have to listen to one more ad about politicians "like my" opponent I'm going to retch. Our incumbent is running a series of fake tear-jerking ads with some actor pretending to have a Jouvenile Diabetes inflicted son saying how awful it is politicians like Dino Rossi don't believe in Stem Cell Research. The only thing missing was telling me Politicians like Dino Rossi were behind Hitler's rise to power. At least Rossi is honest enough to put up a 10 second loop of Gregoire (the incumbent) making a claim, then letting the narrator refute it. Whether the narrator is telling the truth or not, I couldn't tell you. But by playing her words, at least I don't feel like he's telling me I'm too stupid to know I'm being tricked. If I'm being tricked.

And we'll talk in a year after inauguration to see what an agent of change Obama is (assuming he wins, which I do).

Agent of change, my left foot. Any politician that tells you they're going to change Washington is telling you you're a moron who should stop leaving cookies out the night of 12-24. No one politician is going to change Washington D.C. Not unless and until we abolish the political party system so there's no way to "keep score" and people have to start defending their records instead of letting the 40% of the population who always votes their party carry them on for another term.

ALL politics is monkeys flinging poo at each other. Even though Biden did make one glaring error (Not in the debate) when he previously said "When the great depresion happened President Roosevelt got on TV and reassured the American people." It's still painfully obvious that he's more qualified than Palin. She seems to be a Stepford Wife who is badly in need of a hard-drive defragging. However, I'm an anarchist so for me the entire process is just a waste of time.

Something to point out the Right Wingers who still live in Mortal Fear of Communism.....

Sarah Palin runs a former part of the USSR....and has probably worn *Red* Lipstick at some point in the past....

Don't make the Whitehouse Red! VOTE OBAMA!

sebster wrote:The big thing to me is that the Democrats win the house and senate with increased majorities and take the presidency. Not because I really want to Democrats to run everything (I don't think even the Democrats really want that), but because of the effect it might have on the Republican party.

Seb, the Dems would LOVE to own the House, the Senate and the White House. They absolutely want that (as did and do the Republicans). It's terrible for my government though, as the Republicans have shown. Neither party is particularly mature and capable of operating without a healthy pushback. Owning both legislative houses and the executive branch simply means they can push their policy without having to defend it. That sucked for the Republicans, and I think it will suck for the Dems.

The leadership in the House (Nancy Pelosi) and Senate (Harry Reid) absolutely SUCKED these past two weeks during this crisis. Just woeful, confused, and stuck in campaign mode. Even my liberal leaning friends will gladly agree with me on that.

I would love something that forces the Republican Party to figure out what it is and what it should be. The Dems don't know either, but they've been more a collection of social interests for years, and they have figured out is that they are NOT conservatives. That's hardly a ringing endorsement. Remember, the Dems aren't really winning (though I do think Obama is) - in 2006, they won both Houses by NOT being Republicans. That will only take them so far. Hopefully, Obama can help guide them further. Time will tell.

Kilkrazy wrote:What actually is wrong with the USA that needs changing?

"I always loved Santa Clarita, but the one thing I couldn't stand, was all the vampires."

[tongue in cheek]You know that Obama is going to lose, no? Mr Rodriguez Zapatero, spanish premier, endorsed Obama´s candidacy and insulted McCain and let´s look at his previous endorsements....

In 2004, Mr Rodriguez supported Kerry and filled the spanish media with lots of "Bush is finished" end result Bush won and finished the raport that had been building between Spain and the US since before 9-11

One year later he endorsed Schroder and called Angela Merkel a failing, you can guess whom is Germany Chancellor right now. Not happy with that he went to France and actively campaigned for Segolene Royal (socialist party) so the french voted Sarko massively...

Now he supports Obama as I said so if we go with Mr Rodriguez Zapatero´s prior "examples" of selecting winning horses his Obama is doomed.

M.

PS. I forgot, he also "finished" Italy´s Berluscconi when Prodi ended up as President of the Republic... one year later after a continous goverment crisis Berluscconi was back into power