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Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hey,

I'm starting this thread so that people can discuss my proposal for a new piece of Necron wargear I've dubbed the "Veil of Sorrow" without derailing the thread on whether Feel No Pain is a good substitute for We'll Be Back.

Here's the original proposal:

Veil of Sorrow
So long as a model equpped with a Veil of Sorrow is on the board, the Night Fighting rules are in effect. Additionally, any psyker taking a psychic test rolls 1D6 for their psychic tests and multiply the result by 2.

One constructive criticism that was made was that it would completely unbalance the game because no shooting army could possibly engage Necrons in a competitive battle under Night Fighting conditions. Supposing that those armies are Imperial Guard and Tau, I don't really see this as a problem since both have lots of Night Fighting wargear available, and my own experience in using Necrons in a Night Fight is that they are boned unless they brought a Solar Pulse.

One suggestion to solving this problem, that Necrons have an incredible advantage in Night Fights, was to make it a one-turn only deal. The problem with this suggestions is that the Necrons already have such an item: the Solar Pulse.

I think that it might be something to assuage people's fears about such an item, were it ever implemented, from turning into a similarly over-rated item like the Lash of Submission. After all, the problem with the Lash of Submission isn't its power so much as its psychological threat to weak and clueless players.

So here's an idea, since the original concept is a form of psychic defense:

Veil of Sorrow
If an enemy psyker on the board uses a psychic power, and fails to cast that power successfully, then the Night Fighting rules are in effect for the rest of the game.

This change has several advantages over the original. Firstly, it simplifies the matter of the power interacting with psyker-enhancing wargear. Secondly, it makes the perceived threat of a Night Fight depend on the opposing player, making psychic tests risky. Thirdly, it stacks well with the anti-psyker powers of Pariahs.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Nurglitch wrote:... without derailing the thread on whether Feel No Pain is a good substitute for We'll Be Back.


Well... better late than never I 'spose.

Nurglitch wrote:One constructive criticism that was made was that it would completely unbalance the game because no shooting army could possibly engage Necrons in a competitive battle under Night Fighting conditions.


Doesn't actually matter whether it unbalances the game. The problem is that it is a game altering effect, and quite a dramatic one. To me it's no different to a power that reduces all Cover Saves on the table by 1, or one that robs both sides of a single shooting phase, chosen by the player. It's a dramatic and quite overbearing feature that utterly changes the core mechanics of any given game, creates significant advantages for some armies (not specifically the Necrons - this can back fire on them), and it can really hamper armies (such as Tau, Guard or Marine/Chaos/Eldar army set up to shoot you).

The fact that it can hinder the Necrons almost as much as it helps them isn't an argument that it's balanced either. Who it helps and who it doesn't isn't an issue. The issue is it changes each game its involved in on a fundamental level, changing the game completely. This is why it can't exist.

Nurglitch wrote:Supposing that those armies are Imperial Guard and Tau, I don't really see this as a problem since both have lots of Night Fighting wargear available


They have a Night Fighitng ability, not lots. One has Searchlights, the other Blacksuns. Blacksuns are excellent - no doubts there - but no army should be required to bring what is really a 'just in case' upgrade because another army has access to a special piece of equipment that fundementally changes the course of a game.

Nurglitch wrote:and my own experience in using Necrons in a Night Fight is that they are boned unless they brought a Solar Pulse.


And the fact that you might have to bring another piece of Wargear (Solar Pulse) to counter the effects of your other peice of Wargear (Veil of Sorrow) should send up alarm bells that this isn't a good thing.

Nurglitch wrote:One suggestion to solving this problem, that Necrons have an incredible advantage in Night Fights, was to make it a one-turn only deal. The problem with this suggestions is that the Necrons already have such an item: the Solar Pulse.


Which begs the question of why create it at all.

Nurglitch wrote:I think that it might be something to assuage people's fears about such an item


Which you seem to have been very quick in categorise as meaningles or trivial, or at the very least dismiss out of hand.

Nurglitch wrote:After all, the problem with the Lash of Submission isn't its power so much as its psychological threat to weak and clueless players.


It's still a broken power. It took about 3 seconds for the people here to see what it could do. It's effects aren't imagined.

But this isn't a thread about Fzorgle, so I'll leave that be.

BYE
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Bloodletter



Anchorage

Solar pulse doesn't make it night fighting for the entire turn. It makes it night fighting for the entire turn, for the purposes of shooting at the unit that the lord who has the piece of wargear has joined. It will not give nightfighting rules to the entire board. It will cancel nightfighting for the necrons for their (and only their, shooting phase), which makes it ideal in a dawn of war deployment if you have destroyers and heavy destroyers.

We can make it a more potent version of one aspect of the solar pulse, so long as it's in play, you're required to target necrons as if you're using night fight rules. Unlike grey knights and their shrouding, this at least can be removed by taking out the model carrying it. At this point, I'd hardly call it game changing, as theirs already an army that does that. Not sure it'd be more balanced than having the range limitations work both ways, but theirs at least a precedent for this sort of effect.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Shrouding isn't Night Fight.

BYE

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Bloodletter



Anchorage

No, but it does have similar effects when trying to shoot at grey knights. Trust me, I've been frustrated by it many a time.

Point is, there's still something already in the game that has good potentail to neuter shooty armies with a effect similar to night fighting, but doesn't give the opponents a similar protection. In comparison, making the whole board count as nightfighting for one turn, or anything shooting at your army count as nightfighting for multiple turns when it's wargear on a targetable model, doesn't sound quite so overpowered to me. I'd also expect to see more searchlights and such, as 1/3 of the standard missions have nightfighting on turn 1.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Holy smoke, you're still on about this stupid, stupid power?

Nothing further needs to be said, that wasn't already said in the other thread that you hijacked.

What part of "it's not fair to create a huge game-changer that can easily be exploited asymmetrically" don't you understand?

As I said in the other thread, suppose there were a wargear item that caused *ALL* movement to be Difficult and Dangerous? Notionally, it's "balanced", but in reality, it's hugely unfair.

The fact that some armies might be able to build around such an item, if given sufficient advance notice, really doesn't matter, because the army that takes it *will* build around it. If you can't comprehend the basic unfairness of such an item, I'm afraid nobody can help you.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

dancingcricket wrote:No, but it does have similar effects when trying to shoot at grey knights. Trust me, I've been frustrated by it many a time.


But it's a small effect. There's a guy in our group who is a GK nutcase. He's got 6k of GKs and uses them all the time. He loves them to bits no matter how ineffective they have been in certain builds of the game.

Shrouding in our games has been just that - frustrating - but it's not game breaking. Why? Because it's not night fight, and it only comes off a few units. The average score on a shrouding roll isn't enough to neuter shooting armies. It occasionally annoys the odd unit, and really the most annoying part is how the unit then can't shoot another unit if it fails the shrouding roll, not the shrouding roll itself, but it doesn't decide the game.

A piece of wargear that makes every game Night Fight is too much of a dramatic change for it to ever be balanced. It will alter every game fundamentally, and all games will focus around the model that makes it night fight.

BYE

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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