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Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





NorCal

So I just finished Mechanicum.... Amazing book btw, they really hit the ground rolling with this one. While they did answer some questions very clearly, there are a few new ones now...

1: We now know for certain that the void dragon is buried on mars, and that he was placed there by the emperor. But the timeline seems extremely effed now. I always thought that the emperor was created by the shamans' sacrifice sometime in our future, perhapr the year 20k+, but in the book they describe his battle with the c'tan as being in our ancient history, so what is that all about?

2: Ok, so who do you think took the book of the grand lie of mars?

3: If it was the emperor's plan all along to cultivate the cult of mechanicum, so that they would create his tech for him, and then welcome him as the Omnissiah, why did he make Mars an ally and not just come down declaring himself Deus Mechanicus thusly allaying the doubts of the populous by sheer strength of will?

4: They seem to really be saying that the emp. has been planning for a very long time, I mean he apparently was working on this at least since the middle ages. I know that this has been asked before in other forums, but what do you think, did the emp. know about and plan on the heresy?

5: How much are the descriptions of the Emperor starting to remind you of the Bene Gesserit?

Ok, here's my take on these questions, such as it is... Answer with your own opinion, and also, how did you like the book? Do you like where this series is headed? It really seems like they are filling in alot of backstory fluff now, and the 40k books seem to be coming to a head, so do you think there is a climax in the future for the 40k universe?

1)This took me by surprise, I really don't know what to think about it yet!

2)I think it was one of the Knights

3)Because he always avoided being deifyed I guess he didn't want to create a monster. But obviously this created a rift within the mechanicum.

4)I'm waiting now for them to fluff out that the emp. was Jesus Christ at one point.

5)As a huge fan of the Dune series, and all of Herbert's writing, I am starting to notice similarities between these the emp and the missionaria protectiva.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Oh wait. His fluff, at this point, has him coming to blows with Lionel, Angryon, Magnus, and The Emprah. One can only assume he went into the Eye of Terror because he still hadn't had a chance to punch enough Primarchs yet.

Albatross wrote:I guess we'll never know. That is, until Frazzled releases his long-awaited solo album 'Touch My Weiner'. Then we'll know.

warboss wrote:I marvel at their ability to shoot the entire foot off with a shotgun instead of pistol shooting individual toes off like most businesses would.

Mr Nobody wrote:Going to war naked always seems like a good idea until someone trips on gravel.

Ghidorah wrote: You need to quit hating and trying to control other haters hating on other people's hobbies that they are trying to control.

ShumaGorath wrote:Posting in a thread where fat nerds who play with toys make fun of fat nerds who wear costumes outdoors.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Good thing it wasn't attacked by the EC, or it would be the assault on Magnir's Crack.
 
   
Made in us
Dogged Kum



Houston Texas

Im thinking that it has been around s far back as RT that the shaman sacrifice that brought about the emporer happened sometime in 10.000 BC. From there he just moved through humanity bideing his time and waiting for the right opertunity to start his plan. I do kind of see the Missionary Protectiva angle you are going with here. Looks like we can add something else to the pile of things GW has lifted for 40k.

I play...  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United States of England

I've just finised the book, and the memory of the "Shaman incident" also got me confused......My guess is that GW are ditching that plot altogether, and are creating a more mysterious Emp. where his origins are completely unknown.

Man down, Man down.... 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Buzzard's Knob

This is the first I've heard about these shamans, where can I find out more of this? I'm still in the middle of Mechanicum so I can't comment, but I think that Scrapcode will become a big word in the 40K vernacular.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United States of England

I think you'll struggle to find any reference to the Shamans now, I remember reading on Wikipedia, and everything regarding the Emp. has been removed from that site.....(strange)....

However, its almost irrelevant now, as I truely believe that GW is setting up to quash that slice of (interesting) fluff.

All in all.....its not a bad book, its better than a lot of the more recent offers from the Black Library, it ties in the Horus Heresy stuff quite well, gives you a strong sense of "moment" and you feel as though you are reading a important piece of the Heresy puzzle.

I especially like the parts of the book where you can almost see the knowledge and potential of the human race slipping through our greedy fingers, and the choices of a few small minded individuals robbing man of his birth right.

Man down, Man down.... 
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





NorCal

@Delephont - I couldn't agree more about the greedy individuals really screwing everybody else out of a "happy" ending. It's actually kind of nice to see that it wasn't all about Horus, but that he ended up being the main focal point and figurehead of the movement. But it also seems like if the emperor wasn't so secretive, and aloof about his plans, maybe some of this could have been avoided. ex. the mechanicum, his secret works on the webway, and telling Magnus wtf was up and to just chill for awhile.

As far as the shamans go, I believe you can still find reference to this on the lexicanum site, but if they did decide to scrap this fluff it wouldn't hurt my feelings. Just so long as they came up with something really badass to describe the emps. origins.

It would be really nice to have an accurate timeline for the 40k universe.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Oh wait. His fluff, at this point, has him coming to blows with Lionel, Angryon, Magnus, and The Emprah. One can only assume he went into the Eye of Terror because he still hadn't had a chance to punch enough Primarchs yet.

Albatross wrote:I guess we'll never know. That is, until Frazzled releases his long-awaited solo album 'Touch My Weiner'. Then we'll know.

warboss wrote:I marvel at their ability to shoot the entire foot off with a shotgun instead of pistol shooting individual toes off like most businesses would.

Mr Nobody wrote:Going to war naked always seems like a good idea until someone trips on gravel.

Ghidorah wrote: You need to quit hating and trying to control other haters hating on other people's hobbies that they are trying to control.

ShumaGorath wrote:Posting in a thread where fat nerds who play with toys make fun of fat nerds who wear costumes outdoors.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Good thing it wasn't attacked by the EC, or it would be the assault on Magnir's Crack.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United States of England

@ Lint

Yes, yes, yes! I was thinking exactly the same thing about the Emp. Why all the secrecy in his dealings with the human race? I know its only fluff, but it has some very definate pulses from the current worldwide political ideology.

I can't help but think that if the Emp. had empowered his Marines and various forces with knowlegde of Chaos, and been more clear about his workings in the labs on Terra and their importance to the future of mankind so much of the horror that has been built into the WH40K setting could possibly be avoided.

Now, as I said, I know this is only fluff and has no bearing on reality, but in a real sense, I consider the Imperium and the Emp. to be a more sinister character than was previously hinted at.

In the past (real gaming history) the Emp. was always consider to be something of a saviour for mankind, this book really throws that ideal into question. The Emp. has been manipulating man for ages, and to what end? If the Emp. was around in our pre-history and plotting all the future in terms of the Mechanicum....then he must have seen the coming of the Dark Age of Technology, the other dark moments in human history and simply manipulated events so that they would in fact come to pass.....including the Heresy and his eventual internment into the Golden Throne.....

Sooo...from a human perspective, who is truely the enemy of mankind? Chaos, or infact the man who has enslaved mankind from the beginning....the Emp. himself?

Man down, Man down.... 
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





NorCal

That would explain why csm's are always laughing at the ignorance of the loyalist's!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Oh wait. His fluff, at this point, has him coming to blows with Lionel, Angryon, Magnus, and The Emprah. One can only assume he went into the Eye of Terror because he still hadn't had a chance to punch enough Primarchs yet.

Albatross wrote:I guess we'll never know. That is, until Frazzled releases his long-awaited solo album 'Touch My Weiner'. Then we'll know.

warboss wrote:I marvel at their ability to shoot the entire foot off with a shotgun instead of pistol shooting individual toes off like most businesses would.

Mr Nobody wrote:Going to war naked always seems like a good idea until someone trips on gravel.

Ghidorah wrote: You need to quit hating and trying to control other haters hating on other people's hobbies that they are trying to control.

ShumaGorath wrote:Posting in a thread where fat nerds who play with toys make fun of fat nerds who wear costumes outdoors.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Good thing it wasn't attacked by the EC, or it would be the assault on Magnir's Crack.
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




US

In Mechanicum Semyon thinks the event of slaying the dragon takes place around the 11th or 12th century, but at the same time he talks about the Emperor serving the Emperor Diocletian. That would put him in Diocletians wars in Egypt (and Libya) in 297-98. (That sounds an awful lot like some famous Saint...what's his name? Jorge? Gregory?) Either Mr. McNeil is incredibly bad with dates or this is just to display the inaccuracies of recorded ancient history in the 31st Millenium.

If the old shaman story placed the Emperor's creation at around 10,000BC, I don't see how this new story of the Emperor slaying a dragon roughly 10,000 years later would cause any sort of conflict with that old fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/03 11:22:53


ā€œSanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...ā€ -- The Warmaster Horus  
   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





NorCal

Ah, ok. I didn't know that they had placed the shaman story that early in history. Interesting....

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Oh wait. His fluff, at this point, has him coming to blows with Lionel, Angryon, Magnus, and The Emprah. One can only assume he went into the Eye of Terror because he still hadn't had a chance to punch enough Primarchs yet.

Albatross wrote:I guess we'll never know. That is, until Frazzled releases his long-awaited solo album 'Touch My Weiner'. Then we'll know.

warboss wrote:I marvel at their ability to shoot the entire foot off with a shotgun instead of pistol shooting individual toes off like most businesses would.

Mr Nobody wrote:Going to war naked always seems like a good idea until someone trips on gravel.

Ghidorah wrote: You need to quit hating and trying to control other haters hating on other people's hobbies that they are trying to control.

ShumaGorath wrote:Posting in a thread where fat nerds who play with toys make fun of fat nerds who wear costumes outdoors.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Good thing it wasn't attacked by the EC, or it would be the assault on Magnir's Crack.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




United States of England

@BrotherAtrox

Well, as far as I remember, when I read the article the timeline for the "Shamanic" theme had no set date.....it was just sometime in the long past of Terra....given that we are reading this from a view point of the 41st Millenium, that date could be anywhere, including our current time, our immediate future or our distant past!

Man down, Man down.... 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




US

Delephont wrote:@BrotherAtrox

Well, as far as I remember, when I read the article the timeline for the "Shamanic" theme had no set date.....it was just sometime in the long past of Terra....given that we are reading this from a view point of the 41st Millenium, that date could be anywhere, including our current time, our immediate future or our distant past!


I'm pretty sure the story about it occurring in 10,000/9,000BC and in Anatolia (modern Turkey) was in the Realm of Chaos book. I'll have to dig around for mine in the morning.

ā€œSanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...ā€ -- The Warmaster Horus  
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Kalamazoo

What is interesting is how the surviving ArchFabricator of Mars is a non-mystic knowledge oriented guy, yet the mechanicum maintains its mysticism afterwards.

And if the Emperor knew that the dark ages were coming, why didn't he save himself an STC? If he could plan so perfectly I would assume he would have stashed one away before everything went to pot. That means there should be a "Memory Alpha" somewhere in the 40k universe.
   
Made in ie
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Ireland

BrotherAtrox wrote:
Delephont wrote:@BrotherAtrox

Well, as far as I remember, when I read the article the timeline for the "Shamanic" theme had no set date.....it was just sometime in the long past of Terra....given that we are reading this from a view point of the 41st Millenium, that date could be anywhere, including our current time, our immediate future or our distant past!


I'm pretty sure the story about it occurring in 10,000/9,000BC and in Anatolia (modern Turkey) was in the Realm of Chaos book. I'll have to dig around for mine in the morning.


Also in Horus Rising Horus has that coin the Emperor gave him from the Emperors homeland. Which I think was Anatolia

The bigger question is how the hell did the Emperor imprison the dragon on Mars in the 2nd Centuary

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/07 00:39:19


By the 37 keys of Tzeentch,We open the way for our brothers,
By the 1000 whispers of Slaanesh we call to them,
By the 12 plagues of Nurgle we fell their enemies,
And by the mighty axe of Khorne we cut open the world for them!

- Ritual of Summoning, Recited by Amphion and Zethus Dark Sorcerers of the Deimos Peninsula,Kronos


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I love AdMech fluff, and I have been looking forward to this book, but even besides that I agree that this one of the better books they have had in the Heresy series for quite some time. It gave a good idea of what was going on on Mars, a slight hint at the goings on for Earth, and gave a good history lesson and background for Martian planet up to that time. Much better than the past few books dealing with one or two individuals that have really no impact or worth to the tale of the Heresy at all. But the conclusion of it, with most of the forges being destroyed shows how mankind lost EVEN MORE of the rare tech that they had after the Heresy.

1. Everything I read for old Emperor Fluff does give his origins in about 10000 BC when all the shamans killed themselves to form him. As this book gives a solid example where he portrayed an older famous knight, it shows that in the 40k universe, he acted as many singular individuals throughout history, until the time he felt was right to reveal himself. Why he would wait until 30,000 AD is beyond me. You would think he would do it when mankind was at it's technological peak and exploring/mastering the stars and new regions of space.

2. As the knights were most likely in their engines, I dont think they would have left them after they were healed to have a nice chat and check out the Dragon Cave before mounting up again and riding off. It is most likely one of the two remaining Admech guys who have the book. In any case I dont think whomever took it is more important than the overall fact that it went missing.

3. It appeared he pretty much went along with them saying he was the Machine God. There will be doubters regardless of what he did, as in all faiths. Plus you have to remember that many of those Adepts had power for hundreds of years or more before he came, it is probably a good guess that they wouldnt want to give it up.

The emperor probably kept the Dragon hidden on Earth until at some point in the future when he brought him to Mars. He kinda rides off into the sunset with him, they never really stated he flew off to Mars immediately.

All in all a great fluff book, and a great revamp for the Heresy series. Hopefully most of the books in the future will be this good, showing an interesting new fluff aspect of the Heresy, while also showing things that were important overall.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

warpcrafter wrote:I think that Scrapcode will become a big word in the 40K vernacular.


Yeah, like "You liar, that's a bunch of scrapcode!" It gives a nice sense of something that presents itself as logic/tech-based, but is contaminated by Chaos.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in de
Plastictrees





Bonn

Lint wrote:
1: We now know for certain that the void dragon is buried on mars, and that he was placed there by the emperor. But the timeline seems extremely effed now. I always thought that the emperor was created by the shamans' sacrifice sometime in our future, perhapr the year 20k+, but in the book they describe his battle with the c'tan as being in our ancient history, so what is that all about?

2: Ok, so who do you think took the book of the grand lie of mars?

3: If it was the emperor's plan all along to cultivate the cult of mechanicum, so that they would create his tech for him, and then welcome him as the Omnissiah, why did he make Mars an ally and not just come down declaring himself Deus Mechanicus thusly allaying the doubts of the populous by sheer strength of will?

4: They seem to really be saying that the emp. has been planning for a very long time, I mean he apparently was working on this at least since the middle ages. I know that this has been asked before in other forums, but what do you think, did the emp. know about and plan on the heresy?

5: How much are the descriptions of the Emperor starting to remind you of the Bene Gesserit?



Sorry, but now that I actually finished the book, i had to ressurect this thread.


1) Yeah, I actually think theyre trying to make it even more mysterious ... no one knows who the hell he is, or where he came from ... i was kind of expecting something along the lines of sigmar to be honest ... at least when i hit the huge charger & golden armour part.

2)possibly eldar ... so it might be in the black library now ... it does seem to be rather powerful, so no surprise there

3)He didnt want to be seen as a god and in this time, it seems to be perfectly normal for a lot of mechanicus to believe of the omissiah as a god, while others see the emperor to be said omnissiah.

4)Thats a toughie. Be probably knew of the risks, but i doubt the knew the whole thing. Why would he want to throw humanities advancing into a stalemate and be left in the throne until the end days come around. Unless of course, this is the necessary stuff to happen for him to be reborn as an actual god and/ or the starchild.

5) no comment here lol
   
Made in us
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





Omaha (or West of the Mississippi and just afew miles south of Sanity)

I'd have to agree with the Emperor kinda being like the Bene Gesserit especially with the missionaria protectiva approach, since he has been around since 9k bc he could set up his own prophecies to fulfill at a later time when it would suit him best.


The bigger question is how the hell did the Emperor imprison the dragon on Mars in the 2nd Centuary


Eh Ill write this one off to him being the emperor and the most powerful psycher so he could do some crazy like taking the void dragon to mars in the second century! :p

Later
Gareth

FOR RUSS AND FOR THE WOLFTIME!!!!!!! *HHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!*  
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Stafford

Ive read the shamans thing too, but I thought that actually was supposed to be in our distant past, so he could have theoretically been doing emperorly things in the middle ages.

& also, Id heard that the emperor had great powers of premonition which allowed him to plan far into the uture like that, but the heresy was hidden from him.

=====Begin Dakka Geek Code=====
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"I just scoop up the whole unit in my hands and dump them in a pile roughly 6" forward. I don't even care."

- Lord_Blackfang on moving large units


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

in there defense you cant really think up to much stuff these days without it sounding like something else. thats the problem with our times, its pretty much been done. that being said tho, if they come right out and say the emperor WAS jesus christ id first laugh until my eyes exploded and then id buy a buddy jesus action figure and use that as a SUPER UBER EMPEROR mini to kill everything on a battlefield
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Derby, UK

I'm just a little confused, does this mean the Void Dragon was woken first before the deceiver, Which was meant to be the first that woke, whilst this book indicates the void dragon has been awake for ages-much longer than the deceiver seems to have been?

Also, does this mean it's tomb complex was on earth? In which case what happened to it's necrons-and finally if the dragon is awake in the heresy and thereafter, why hasn't it seized control of the Imperiums vehicles (Power of the machine spirit (aka it is the machine god)) and freed itself as a result?

"To be truely evil you must acknowledge the right thing to do in a situation, and then do completely the oposite"  
   
Made in de
Plastictrees





Bonn

its not alive and running around (anymore). the emperor basically caught the dragon and imprisoned him on mars. hes still locked up but appearently hes able to influence some beings a bit. at least that how it seems to be in the book. they do call themselves guardians afterall.

and saying that the dragon happened to be on earth, doesnt mean that he originated there or that theres a tomb on earth. as far as i recall, the cĀ“tan can roam planets pretty much as they desire. i dunno though, correct me if im wrong.
   
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Storm Lord wrote:I'm just a little confused, does this mean the Void Dragon was woken first before the deceiver, Which was meant to be the first that woke, whilst this book indicates the void dragon has been awake for ages-much longer than the deceiver seems to have been?


Not really, it just means the Dragon was in fact the last to go to "sleep". The Deceiver then awakes at a point much much later than at the point this story is set in.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Derby, UK

No, the Necron Codex states the Deceiver was last to go into Stasis. (If I recall correctly) and they all went to sleep long before the Heresy, before the Eldar empire aswell I believe

"To be truely evil you must acknowledge the right thing to do in a situation, and then do completely the oposite"  
   
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Flashy Flashgitz





Devon, England

I doubt it was before the Eldar's ascension. Kinda defeats the purpose of the Talismans of Vaul.

"Hello? You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel." 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Storm Lord wrote:No, the Necron Codex states the Deceiver was last to go into Stasis. (If I recall correctly) and they all went to sleep long before the Heresy, before the Eldar empire aswell I believe


Not quite.

It says the Deceiver was the last to withdraw to its Tomb world. It then also states that he was the first to return.

I've no idea why you mention the Heresy and the Eldar Empire with regards to my post ?

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in de
Plastictrees





Bonn

Going by the book, the emperor obviously imprisoned the dragon LONG before the heresy, long before spaze marinz hurr and even long before humanity ever dreamed of leaving terra.

in the vision, the times were described as medieval, so i dont think the eldar were concerned at all about humanity at that time.
   
 
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