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Recently ive seen alot of threads pop up about evil in 40k, i thought having one thread to discuss it woul be better then several threads talking about good and evil in different races.

So let the discussion begin!


Il start, i dont think the chaos demons are fully evil as they are created from human as well as xenos emotions, and if the are chaos gods made from the emotions like anger, etc wouldnt there be happy gods going around picking daisys in the warp, who are made from positive emotions?

Firstly let me say that there is no black or white answer in this. It depends on your opinion and morals [but they would mostly be the same I think].

But as far a Chaos daemons being evil id have to say yes. Because they were created from emotions by humans which are mostly evil [nurgle i have my doubts]. And they are fueled by these emotions and they create chaos with them then id say yes.

There is and isnt a god created by 'good' emotions. There is no god created straight out of happiness but there is Slannesh which was created out of emotions created by happiness but those emotions were unlocked by killing, raping, etc.

So yeah

Um, lets see

technically, it is black and white.

Tau, Certain Imperials and Eldar are good in the sense that they battle evil.

Chaos, Nids, Orks, Dark Eldar are evil in the sense that they gain something more from killing (pleasure, souls, etc.)

Of course, Imperials can be evil in the sense that they follow blindly, and chaos allows for the mind to be truly free.

Tau can be evil seeing as they wish to dominate the galaxy by forcing ideals onto others. Orks, on the other hand, simply kill stuff.

The Eldar are evil in the fact that they, like the Imperium, are Xenophobic. The Dark Eldar only kill for their own survival.

The Necron is evil. Xenocide is Xenocide, man. Same with the nids.

But yes, it does depend on your morals (or lack of them, WAAAGH!)

It certainly is a good idea, and through the fluff you do see signs of there being a good side in all of the darkness, The grey knights books talk about the "blind devotion" of the imperium. they give the argument that for humanity to survive sacrifices have to be made.
In the game play the grey knights and sisters of battle have powers tht can compare to the daemons, this gives rise to the question, where does that power come from? The legion of the dammed also comes from somewere and I highly doubt that khorn or nurgle is supplying them. They call him the god emperor but where did he get his power?
A common theme in fiction is that belief gives power, fearing someting means that you believe in it too, so humantity fearing primal emotions (anger, lust, curiosity goon too far) and forces that are beyond our control (plague) may give strength to those powers. But just because we made them does not mean that we are responsible for their actions. Anyhoo back to the good side of things. Belief can also spawn good things, the points of evidence are above (also don't the eldar have some thing akin, peonix lords?), but another point is the strength of the empire, it frustrates the chaos gods, orks, tyranids, and ctan, that any kind of order can exist, and they bring the best that they can to destroy that. I think that if things got worse you would see more cases where the lighter side of things has to intervene.

The army across from mine is Evil, mine is Good. Easy!

"there is no good or evil, just decisions and consequences" - Geralt, from The Witcher

shades of grey my friend, shades of grey.

@OP Clearly you have answered your own question, the fact that there are so many "Who is the most evil" threads means there it isn't a black and white answer.

Without naming Real Life charactors to avoid flaming and trolling as they can cause grief by mentioning their name I can only say that being evil is a matter of perspective. Many dictators from real life do not see themselves as evil and it would be the same in 40K

Imperial Guard would technically but seen as the good guys but when you consider how xenophobic they are and what they do to their citizens it makes you doubt yourself. Tau, seemingly good, but they destroy all those that refuse to convert.

My own Space Marine army I would consider being good guys, but marines are the most xenophobic race in the 40K universe and kill everything, even fellow chapters and imperial guard if they deem them heretics, so how can they be good guys?

Not having a go I assure you, what i say is meant in good spirit, just seems to be far to many "who is the most evil?" themed threads. But the above is my view point on your question.

@Demogerg. I like the quote

To be honest, I think you give the game fluff too much credit and consideration.

What I mean by this, is that the whole thing is cheese ball heaven. GW, appealing to the child in us, and the childish mind in general really only deals in basic concepts of Good and Evil. Yes, the adults amoung us tend to delve a bit deeper...as per this thread, but I don't think the actual creators really give a stuff in this respect.

Duality is a very complex subject, somthing GW is just not geared up to deal with.

space marine+left = good
the others are bad

The real life equivalents to the imperium are the crusades, the nazi party, the inquisition... surely they are evil!

The Imperium might be considered good only because they are human and lets be honest were all human (I think) so we instantly like them. Millions of people die everyday, countless people die in the Imperiums wars (defensive wars are okay but assaulting xenos and chaos planets are wrong when those resources could be spent on saving lives, building medicae stations e.g) The ideals of the original Imperium were quite good, but the universe has changed a lot since the great crusade.

I just listen to old man Obi-wan "Good and evil is all matter of perspective" personally i chose my army simpily out of how cool i thought they were. I see 40k very similar to a real war, you have the poltical crap, some crazy guys and a war.

space marine+left = good
the others are bad

I think the definition of good or evil is derived by the reason for which one kills. The reason why we consider the humans good is that they (for the most part) kill with the intent to preserve. The same with the Eldar. They kill so that others of their race may live. Where as Chaos kills because it feels good, Necrons and DE kill because its what their purpose is. The Tau kill because they beleive that they can help you. (but you have to give in first) The only race this kind of thing does not work with is the Nids. I think that they are neither evil or good. They simply are, and they do what they have always done to continue to be. They have almost no concious choice in the matter as their thoguht processes are only highly developed animalistic. For similar reasons Orcs can simply be classifeid under natural disaster. For they are more a force of nature than a thinking reasoning being. (you would think the same of the Necrons but they have a higher sentient judgement guiding their actions)

Cryonicleech wrote:The Dark Eldar only kill for their own survival.

That's not technically true, they do like to torture people to a slow death, that torture brings them pleasure, so that's another reason for them to kill.

@Ratbarf

By using your reasoning, are you saying that Necrons are less evil than Humans. A person/being that has no control over there actions cannot be called evil wheras for the most part, humans choose to kill (though i grant you my own logic is flawed by the fact that most guardsmen are conscripts, but i can't find another way to explain it lol)

For the most part i agree with you except for Dark Eldar, who kill both for pleasure and for survival

hellsguardian316 wrote:By using your reasoning, are you saying that Necrons are less evil than Humans. A person/being that has no control over there actions cannot be called evil wheras for the most part, humans choose to kill (though i grant you my own logic is flawed by the fact that most guardsmen are conscripts, but i can't find another way to explain it lol)

Charter of the International Military Tribunal, August 8, 1945
ARTICLE 8

The fact that the defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determine that justice so requires.



The military tribunal at Nuremberg begs to differ.

I disagree with calling Nids evil. I see them as no different than locusts. The come, consume, they move on. They are only considered evil because their attacks are so "all encompassing", that nothing is left in their wake, and we are on the dinner menu.

As for the other races being evil. Once again, I believe that a lot of this is left up to perspective. I think that most of the Chaos intentions come from a very dark place, so it is probably pretty safe to call the actions of Chaos "evil". But you could also look at it as the force that is strengthening the universe. Every race is having to grow stronger to deal with their threat. It is much like your immune system fighting off infection. The more it fights, the stronger it gets.

Humanity is a little twisted in 40K. I think whole sale slaughter of a race to further your own agenda is pretty evil. That being said, I'm not sure that you can call any of the races depicted in the 40K universe as purely good. For me, they all have their moments that make me cringe.

Of course, the universe is here to serve humanity, so if you made the mistake of settling our planets before we get there, then you deserve to die. All hail the god emperor. Death to the Xenos!!! Death to Chaos!!! TO WAR FOR THE EMPEROR!! LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Dronze

Thats a good bit of info I never knew of

What I meant to say and didn't explain well in my previous post, is that Necrons have no free will, they cannot "choose" to disobey. Whereas the IG may be following orders, but they "can choose" to disobey, even though such an action would result in there execution.

For IG, I think Dronze's quote is aptly suited, for the Necrons, I'm not so sure.

In many cultures the snake is considered to be evil, when in reality they are not. They are actually very good at pest control in many countries and usually only attack when threatened. (an exception would be the black mamba which is actually just an ill tempered little bugger)

@Shadowbrand
QFT and I completely agree. I bought my Tau army purely because of the looks and play style with no regard to their background.

The Nids are the only truly good, or at least neutral, faction in the universe. Even the so called 'righteous' Imperium is rife with villainy. The entire concept of Exterminatus is proof of that.

Nids, however, are completely mindless in their goals. They have intelligence that allows them make tactical decisions, but no more than, say, the intelligence of a pack of wolves working together to bring down larger prey. You wouldn't call the wolves evil for doing what their animal instincts tell them to. They gain no pleasure from it, it is simply their nature. As a result, Tyranids are the only race that is truly pure in it's intentions, doing what they do with no malice or petty emotion involved.

Delephont wrote:To be honest, I think you give the game fluff too much credit and consideration.

What I mean by this, is that the whole thing is cheese ball heaven. GW, appealing to the child in us, and the childish mind in general really only deals in basic concepts of Good and Evil. Yes, the adults amoung us tend to delve a bit deeper...as per this thread, but I don't think the actual creators really give a stuff in this respect.

Duality is a very complex subject, somthing GW is just not geared up to deal with.

I think I have to disagree on this one. I'll agree that the fluff can get fairly cheese ball, but I actually think the do a very good job of trying to keep the different armies/races pretty gray. Even the Space Marines, GW's "golden boys" are portrayed as fanatical and without mercy. I think they try to keep away from making any single army entirely good or entirely evil. We look at some of them as the "good guys" but I think that just comes from the fact that the armies are varied and we happen to identify some as having "classic good guy traits."



That said if I had to pick a bad guy I'd go with the Eldar. Everything's their fault. I mean, their decadence created slannesh. And didn't they have something to do with waking up crons and creating orks? I could be wrong I'm getting that second hand. In any case, they're kind of the George Bush of the 40k universe; we can blame 'em for everything!

I guess I am going to have to twist this around based on my one perspective. I play Crimson Fists and have chosen to kind of move in a whole Spanish Conquistador and Spanish Inquisition direction.

The Crimson Fists have been called upon by the High Lords of Terra to exterminate at least two other Chapters, The Sons of Gideon (Geneseed Corruption) and the Marines Vigilant (Fell under the control of a warp entity).

I have as Squad of Grey Knights for depoyment with them, planning to expand that to a second squad and an Inquisitor Lord. I have fought with Sister of Battle Allies many times over.

What I am getting at is these guys are as evil as the Orginizations they were based upon, The Spanish Conquisidors and Spanish Inquisition. In a sense they have been a lap dog to those organizations in the past.

My other major army that i have played was a Emperor's Children Army, which is currently pre-paring for a refit and massive remodel. Rules or not these guys are a Noise Marine army, and they will all be outfitted with ranged weapons that are Sonic in Appearance.

I see them as the Galaxy's answer to Sex, Drugs, and Rock & Roll. Albiet taken to excess under the power of Slaanesh. I see Chaos as a force for Free will, but with the consequences of such free will clearly visible.

Good and Evil is not only about the shades of grey but the perspective from which you view it.

I personally think the closest to being a force for Good is the Tau, who have shown a tolerance for willing to work with other species, and have thus far been untainted by the horrors of the warp. Their Greater Good is the lesser of the other evils, IMHO, and is an appealing philosophy to someone such as myself who is persueing an Economics degree, The Greater Good maximizes utility, very logical and very capitalist. I kind of view the Tau as militant emotional Vulcans in that regard.

That said not even the Tau are good guys, they are just less evil than the others. But then again they are a much younger race, so who knows what atrocities they will have attributed to them in the years to come.

It is threads like this that make me want to build a Traitor Marine and Guard Force who has neither fallen under the firm grip of Imperial Doctrine, or the corruptible grasp of Chaos. Maybe some day.

The Trynids aint just evil or good, there are doing what they are born to do, eat and survive. It like a lion tackling a zebra, its not nice, but its following its natural instincts, to eat, to survive, shame the nids just like to eat everything.



EDIT: Scout, dont Tau commit mass genocide of a race, that refuses to change or to obey to there rules?

Tyranids are controlled by the Outsider, which is a very evil C'Tan.

Thats not proven, that nids have a C'tan, but anyway its rumors, we know there are 3 C'tan left, Nightbringer, Decevier and the Dragon, but the last one is purely fiction (Of Fiction) for now anyway. But anyway the Nids do what they do to survive and prosper, eat a planet so there are more nids and less chance of being wiped out, they are like some species of animals, driven on survival.

The truth is that every race in the 40K Universe has an evil side to them. It just depends on how you as a individual chose to look at them. Because while some may see the Greater Good of the Tau as being good, they do commit genocide on those that oppose the Greater Good. Some may say the Space Marines are good because they protect humanity but bad because they are xenophobias. While other are going to say that CSM (IMHO - misguided) are just fighting the oppression of the empire are just trying to experience emotions to the max so they are good to a point.

So there is no black or white in 40K just shades of gray.

No such thing as good or evil in 40k, only war.

Imperium fights to protect itself
Chaos fights to destroy the imperium
Orkz just fight
Eldar lost the good fight and now are struggling to survive (kinda like in dawn of war when you kill an eldars base and they always have that one stealthed building hiding)
Dark Eldar - They fight for glory in their culture - same as orkz mostly
Tau - even tho they pull the whole "its for the greater good" thing it is really like .."if you don't join us we are going to lazer you"
Nids - Nids imo are the most neutral in the game, they're just hungry. They eat anything
Necrons - fight to reclaim their former empire and awaken gods
Squats - they lost

So evil - good - they are all fighting to protect themselves or their way of life. A matter of perspective