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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

i just played my first (and only probably) battle in 5th edition with my old blood angels. i never sold them off (like other armies i've owned) since they were the first ones i ever collected and painted. back in 3rd edition, they were pretty cheesy but at least had some flavor. after playing today (and winning so i'm not just whining about losing here), they felt incredibly bland. the old flavor (will the rage forward???, furious charge for everyone, etc) seems to have been replaced with a boring basic army, even more tooled up death company, and almost mandatory special characters. (dante and corbulo with their 12" commander effects for the win!) i don't like putting all my eggs in the same (albeit incredibly powerful) basket but that's what you inevitably have to do with blood angels since the rest of the army has been made so incredibly vanilla. any one else agree? any other armies even more bland in 5th edition compared with 3rd? (when i used to play) it seems that a bunch of people (or maybe just a vocal HBMC) think that the CSM deserve the title in this thread's subject. after playing against CSM a few times in the past few months, i agree that they've taken a hit in power (which they needed, lol) but still have alot of diversity and play style options (outside of the generic demons).

p.s. i've considered simply using them as codex marines but i have way too many assault squads for that, especially since i'll have to change the death company to a plain assault squad. 2 vet assault squads, 10 man death co, 5 man honor guard jet pack squad, 3 attack bikes, a speeder just to name a few...

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

Ever read the old Codex: CSM? The second 3rd edition one?

Now THAT was diversity. Each Legion had their own rules and the four gods had their own armoury. You could have a berzerker army, sonic weapons on tanks, Rubric Terminators, and *gasp* daemons that WEREN'T generic. Then Gav Thorpe went and mauled it in a dark alley with a crowbar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/01 04:20:57


People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

yup, lots of diversity in that one. that's the one i said needed a bit of nerfing (as did the old Blood Angels!)...

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

Cheese Elemental wrote:Ever read the old Codex: CSM? The second 3rd edition one?

Now THAT was diversity. Each Legion had their own rules and the four gods had their own armoury. You could have a berzerker army, sonic weapons on tanks, Rubric Terminators, and *gasp* daemons that WEREN'T generic. Then Gav Thorpe went and mauled it in a dark alley with a crowbar.


Truth. That book is beautiful. I sometimes read it now and lament all that we lost. Anyway, yeah, CSM have become so much more bland. We had lots and lots of viable options before, now they're all so thoroughly meh. CSM armies all look very similar unless they're committing suicide by making a fluffy list.

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Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

Dark Angels are far more bland than either current Blood Angels or Chaos.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

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Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Ontario

Its so true it hurts...

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Made in us
Superior Stormvermin





The new chaos book really isnt that bad compared to some of the other books, its just that the old book had so many options it was ridiculous. It got annoying having to constantly explain to everyone what everything did such as the effects of blood frenzy or warp scream and how all the special rules worked. The old book needed to be toned down but I do think they simplified it too much. A few daemonic upgrades for champs or lords would have been nice. Although the power level of aspiring champions in squads got to be absolutely ridiculous at times...

Steve Perry.... STEEEEEEVE PERRY.... I SHOULD'VE BEEN GOOOONE! 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Buzzard's Knob

Yeah, instead of actually taking a look at all the armies at once, they fiddle around with them one at a time, and that's just not working. That's why I'm currently playing Orks, because they're somewhat less screwed than Chaos Space Marines.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

warboss wrote:yup, lots of diversity in that one. that's the one i said needed a bit of nerfing (as did the old Blood Angels!)...


Yeah, 'cept they didn't nerf it.

There's nothing lost on the 'power' of Chaos. Not in the slightest. They still have their power builds.

They just killed everything that made it interesting.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine



SC, USA

H.B.M.C. wrote:
warboss wrote:yup, lots of diversity in that one. that's the one i said needed a bit of nerfing (as did the old Blood Angels!)...


Yeah, 'cept they didn't nerf it.

There's nothing lost on the 'power' of Chaos. Not in the slightest. They still have their power builds.

They just killed everything that made it interesting.


I beg to differ. I used to field 9 Obliterators AND 3 Defilers AND 6 Las-plas squads at 1500. When that got old, I could instead devote myself to the blood god. A Daemon Prince from the last codex could wipe out an entire 1000 point army by himself (oh Berzerker Glaive, why were you taken from me!!!) and that doesn't count my A.C. on bike with the mark of khonre and lightning claws!

I miss that dex so much...

Now I too have a Lash list (what do you want from me, it's the only decent HQ aside from Kharn or Typhus whom I don't own)
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

You beg to differ... and then state that you miss that Codex? What... what were you trying to say just then DJ66? That the last Codex was very powerful?

Yes. We know that.

That it had power builds?

Yeah... ok. We know that too.

I'm... confused. You're disagreeing with me, but I can't see how, as at no point do you attempt to contradict me.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

Agreed on Chaos Space Marines. They killed everything that made it fun or characterful, and even though they managed to get rid of most of the power builds (the one that remains is a fething pain in the ass though) I don't think it was worth it...they could have made it balanced without making it boring, but I guess that's GW for you, they can't do anything but extremes. It's either really powerful to the point where you're stupid for not taking it, or really bad/just not worth taking. Not only that but they didn't even get any "Take x and y becomes troops" options that all armies are getting now...

That and I don't think anyone likes the random, unreliable units that litter the codex, either. I doubt they would have sold many of those ugly metal dreadnoughts even if the rules were good, but still, who else but an Ork player wants to take a unit that has a good chance of killing his own troops (and I don't think Ork players even like that stuff)? Who the hell buys possessed or spawn models for anything but bits? And on that note I think the old spawn model looked much better than the plastic kit...

Other than Chaos I'd say Dark Angels and Tau are in the running for "most bland" codex. I didn't find the CD codex all that interesting, either. Necrons deserve a mention for being painfully boring.

 Desubot wrote:
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Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)

As much as i did love charging in with a glaive and plenty of other tools (daemonic stature and essence to name 2 )
i think necrons still have the gak deal when it comes to bland lists


and how can you say BA are boring? they are great fun to play

Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor.  
   
Made in us
Loud-Voiced Agitator



San Diego

I have to say that Necrons are the most bland list. They have no options. You may not have great options with Chaos but at least you have some. I'm not a Necron player. Probably because of their lack of options.

Bolter Fire is my worst nightmare  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'll take no options over boring options.

Necrons are a... limited force - let me phrase it that way - and in order to get interested in them I had to create a lot of fluff and make things interesting, probably more than my other armies.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






Joplin, Missouri

Ok you have to understand that when I say this it is from the perspective of my local club.

Most bland: Vanilla Space Marines.

The guys generally have 4 tact squads, a squad of termies, a dreadnought, scouts, landraider and a couple of characters. No drop pods, no stern guard, nothing that makes the marines exciting in the new codex. One guy uses a thunderfire cannon, but other than that I can expect (in a club game) to just sit back with my guard and kill stuff from a distance. They don't use special characters and just expect to roll over you with a herd of tactical marines. Total facepalm when I see their list.

"Just pull it out and play with it" -Big Nasty B @ Life After the Cover Save
40k: Orks
Fantasy: Empire, Beastmen, Warriors of Chaos, and Ogre Kingdoms  
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne






barlio wrote:Ok you have to understand that when I say this it is from the perspective of my local club.

Most bland: Vanilla Space Marines.

The guys generally have 4 tact squads, a squad of termies, a dreadnought, scouts, landraider and a couple of characters. No drop pods, no stern guard, nothing that makes the marines exciting in the new codex. One guy uses a thunderfire cannon, but other than that I can expect (in a club game) to just sit back with my guard and kill stuff from a distance. They don't use special characters and just expect to roll over you with a herd of tactical marines. Total facepalm when I see their list.


I would love to have to face bland space marines. All I ever face are shrike led Thundershield Terminators. I think everyone at my LGS that plays space marines has either Shrike, or Blood Angels. I was drooling over GBF's BA list, but everyone up here runs it, so maybe I'll take khornatedemon's mechanized Vulcan list instead. Nobody seems to have figured out the melta/flamer love yet.

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Made in us
Nasty Nob






Joplin, Missouri

I'm working on a Salamander list and I can't wait till I drop that on the table. Ok you bring your LR up here to my door step. SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND (tl meltas that is).

"Just pull it out and play with it" -Big Nasty B @ Life After the Cover Save
40k: Orks
Fantasy: Empire, Beastmen, Warriors of Chaos, and Ogre Kingdoms  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





I will say that IG use to be the most bland army with no mobility at all. I think with the new codex it may have changed but they still lack any real assault capability that almost all other armies have, even tau with kroot.

Only having the option of a gunline sucked before.
   
Made in us
Pauper with Promise




Dallas, TX

Guard only had a Gunline prior to 5th? What army were you playing? Drop Guard Plasma Spam, for instance, was a pretty successful build and was a very aggressive and in-your-face army...not at all a stand-and-shoot gunline build.

I feel like Guard has gained a lot (new, powerful units and reduced costs on our transports and troops), but at the cost of some of the diversity we once had in constructing our forces in different ways (not to say that I'm nominating 5e guard for the "most bland army").

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/01 21:40:22


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

broxus wrote:I think with the new codex it may have changed but they still lack any real assault capability that almost all other armies have, even tau with kroot.



*snort* Seriously? You think Kroot are better assault troops than anything in the new IG codex?

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





H.B.M.C. wrote:I'll take no options over boring options.

Necrons are a... limited force - let me phrase it that way - and in order to get interested in them I had to create a lot of fluff and make things interesting, probably more than my other armies.


TOUCHE'

Necrons are probably THE most blan force in the game. They are the only(?) army with 1 troop choice? Yea, the only real choices being how many liths to play and nightbringer or not.

Also with no:

squad leaders
squad options
close combat units

and with

1 troop choice
1 vehicle
1 character (outside of specs)
5 stinker units (flayed ones, scarabs, heavy destroyers, tombspiders, pariahs)

The armies are so blandly themed they tend to be realy awful to play as or against as they don't offer any variety at all (and if they did they would probably just loose). So the Necrons are 1 dimensional on paper (with few/no options), AND in play (when most of the armies looks the same also).

EDIT:

Sidstyler wrote:
broxus wrote:I think with the new codex it may have changed but they still lack any real assault capability that almost all other armies have, even tau with kroot.



*snort* Seriously? You think Kroot are better assault troops than anything in the new IG codex?


Yes (but thats OT really)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/01 22:11:17


 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior






I'd say Necrons are the most bland force, with very little in the way of options or visual diversity.

That said, saying that the new Chaos Codex is still just as good as the old one is false.

The old codex had power builds, many of which were fluffy, and some of which were cheesy.

The new one has a SINGLE power build, with no fluff, no room for variety, and no other options.

Saying that the new Chaos Codex is just as powerful as the old one is only true if you compare the ONE viable build to SOME of the power lists of previous edition.

We didn't just lose a few squad upgrades, we lost almost everything that made the army interesting. Even the fluff was nerfed, reducing Chaos to little more than space pirates.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/01 23:03:15




 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spitsbergen

Necrons are definitely the most bland army. They have what, like 3 different models to choose from?
   
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

fatal_GRACE wrote:I'd say Necrons are the most bland force, with very little in the way of options or visual diversity.

That said, saying that the new Chaos Codex is still just as good as the old one is false.

The old codex had power builds, many of which were fluffy, and some of which were cheesy.

The new one has a SINGLE power build, with no fluff, no room for variety, and no other options.

Saying that the new Chaos Codex is just as powerful as the old one is only true if you compare the ONE viable build to SOME of the power lists of previous edition.

We didn't just lose a few squad upgrades, we lost almost everything that made the army interesting. Even the fluff was nerfed, reducing Chaos to little more than space pirates.


There is NOTHING in the new codex that comes anywhere CLOSE to the World Eaters build I had before. It was truly sick (totally kitted out DP with Berzerker Glaive)

The old Chaos Lord option was the coolest thing ever. Most customizable HQ yet. But no. Too cool apparently.

Cult armies are dead unless you love fluff and want to sacrifice for it.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
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Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

I got into warhams in 4th edition, so I never saw the third edition CSM codex, but I agree our current codex is kinda bland, it's hard to have a themed army to any specific god and while we have lots more diversity than some (Necrons come to mind, poor blokes) it still feels like you are punished for having anything other than an undivided army.

 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





Georgia,just outside Atlanta

I have to say CSM,only because they have been renderd bland,not due to any inherent blandness.


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Made in ca
Elite Tyranid Warrior






Mad Rabbit wrote:
fatal_GRACE wrote:I'd say Necrons are the most bland force, with very little in the way of options or visual diversity.

That said, saying that the new Chaos Codex is still just as good as the old one is false.

The old codex had power builds, many of which were fluffy, and some of which were cheesy.

The new one has a SINGLE power build, with no fluff, no room for variety, and no other options.

Saying that the new Chaos Codex is just as powerful as the old one is only true if you compare the ONE viable build to SOME of the power lists of previous edition.

We didn't just lose a few squad upgrades, we lost almost everything that made the army interesting. Even the fluff was nerfed, reducing Chaos to little more than space pirates.


There is NOTHING in the new codex that comes anywhere CLOSE to the World Eaters build I had before. It was truly sick (totally kitted out DP with Berzerker Glaive)

The old Chaos Lord option was the coolest thing ever. Most customizable HQ yet. But no. Too cool apparently.

Cult armies are dead unless you love fluff and want to sacrifice for it.


Oh, no, I agree completely. The Dual Lash oblit spam, the only viable thing to come out of the new dex, still isn't as good as my old Khorne lists. The DP I can understand losing (though not to the degree we did), just because it was so powerful, but other than that, they eradicated everything good about chaos and the only thing the new dex really gained was Lash.



 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

Although I do not think that the current CSM codex is bland at all (rather it represents a "power reset" that we also saw with the Dark Angels codex) Khornate Daemon Princes really did lose it badly.

The old DP was ridiculously overpowered for one reason, and it was not the Berzerker Glaive, it was the 10 point Feel No Pain.

I never took the BG because I gave mine an Axe of Khorne and wings, so I could actually control him and get good movement. He still wiped out Tactical squads on the charge.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

Honestly, the main thing that I miss about the old Chaos Lord was the ability to customize him. Just like the old possessed, who could do several things (like mark of khorne and wings=khorne "raptors")

I still have the WD where they talk about how stupid rolling for possessed abilities is and chaos veterans only having infiltrate was ridiculous. Oops! Guess no one bothered to read that when they just took the older, crappier codex and reprinted it for us. Great way to replace one of the best codexes I've read (in terms of options/fluff).

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
 
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