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Read the title. My opinions is Chaos because of the fact that the Daemons could outnumber everything put together.

My only worry is the Emperor because of his Psychic ability to keep the Daemons of the Warp at bay.

It depends though on alot of things. Do you mean that they are all in one space system having a massive battle or do you mean that they are fighting as they are now (spread across the galaxy)?

If in one spot, then I would say that the Imperium would win with more gun than foes.

If spread about then I would say Chaos would win cos of the fact that, like you said, there is tons of daemons that can, when dead, be replenished.

I have to say chaos because they have the daemons from the warp

i mean spread

Chaos wins. It doesn't matter how many guns or men the imperium has. The warp acts in a way that refracts time in on itself. A CSM killed today might be fighting in a battle that happened seven days ago, four years from now, and 12 hours from now as well. He could die in each one too. But he will be back. The nature of the warp makes fighting against Chaos an inevitable loss.

Typeline ive never heard that before, do you have evidence?

40K fluff states that chaos can never ever be defeated.
The only exception to this would be the destruction of every single sentient lifeform in not only this universe but every other universe that the warp touches. This would require the destruction of every human thus destroying the imperium. So long as the imperium exists Chaos exists and chaos can never be defeated thus it is physically impossible for the imperium to ever win over chaos, they can only delay the inevitable.

Before we go through this with every single faction, let me just say this: the Imperium would win in a 1 on 1 fight with any other faction easily. The only fight that even bears the merit of discussion is the Tyranid threat.

Manchu wrote:Before we go through this with every single faction, let me just say this: the Imperium would win in a 1 on 1 fight with any other faction easily. The only fight that even bears the merit of discussion is the Tyranid threat.

And your opinion would be based upon??,I don't belive that victory for the Imperium against any race/facton,except perhaps Tau,is a forgone conclusion,as stated before,I don't belive chaos CAN be defeted,as the seed for it's rebirth would exist in every man,woman and child within the Imperium.
I also don't particularly belive the Imperium would fare well facing the Waagh wich would ensue should all of Orkdom ever unite,although that would probaly never happen.

If the terms are: who will eliminate who? then no one can ever win. Just as much as the Imperium will not exist without Chaos around, Chaos does not exist without Humanity around. So the terms must be other than annihilation. So one must ask oneself: what would Chaos consider to be victory? Seems like there is no one answer and the disagreement over it leads to the same problem (to at least the same degree if not more) that the orks have--no unity. Contrast this with the Imperial objective: eliminate Chaos as a pre-existent significant threat. This could be accomplished handily. If Mankind does as well as it does fighting Chaos on top of everything else, Chaos alone would not stand a chance. Now, would this mean that the Warp or the Warp entities known as the Chaos gods would never pose a problem again? No. But that problem would be sorted out even more easily than the hypothetical first fight we're talking about in this thread.

I understand where your coming from,however I still disagree that the Imperium has done well at fighting Chaos,since the Horus Herresy it seems that the Imperium has,at best,held back the tide of Chaos,granted the Imperium has many other enemies to deal with,but I wonder,with out those enemies tohold the Imperium together,would not more Imperial troops/citizens be drawn to Chaos.

FITZZ wrote:but I wonder,with out those enemies tohold the Imperium together,would not more Imperial troops/citizens be drawn to Chaos.

Not a bad point but I'd wager that without those other enemies, the Imperium would have the time and resources to grind their propaganda-religion into the minds of all humans.

I agree with you on that point,and also that with out the multi-foe threat, the Imperium may be able to stop the imediate threat of Chaos,however I still belive that Chaos is a threat the Imperium can never truely rid itself of,the nature of man would always bring about it's rebirth.

You're all forgetting that there are glitches within the golden throne that will eventually cause it to fail. The emperor is the only thing holding back the full power of Chaos. Even if they are defeated once and lose almost all of their followers they just need to wait until they can unleash their full power.

IMHO defeating Chaos is like trying to defeat Death itself. The only way to stop it 'existing' is to 'submit' in some way to it.

Beset on all sides, the imperium IS able to hold off all of its various enemies. It is however being slowly ground down. Mostly due to lost knowledge and its stagnant nature. However with the sheer amount of bodies and bullets it is not going anywhere soon. Choas seems to be a reflection of that. Chaos does not put a flag in the ground and claim victory. They form a symbiotic giant organism with the Imperium. While the chaos legions fight to bring down the imperium and have clearish goals, the chaos gods live for...well chaos. I don't think the chaos gods would want to win in a military sense. If anything they would let it get close and pull back at the precipice, abandoning Horus comes to mind . Why? Its their nature. They kill their own for fun. But I would think they understand that the imperium is a playground for them. To destroy it could be counter productive. Even if many of their followers would like to see it. Not to mention the Imperium needs the warp for travel and communication. With out it the Imperium falls apart. So they are necessary to each other, in a very twisted way. The fight is just a byproduct of this relationship. Strange but inherently true.

So the only answer would be...they both lose.

On the assumption that all other races have been removed from the equation,then I'd have to say that I think it would be one big stalemate. Chaos simply has no way of defeating the numerous Imperial Guard and we know from fluff, each Black Crusade has ended in failure each time.

Like wise the Imperium, whilst holding the upperhand with control of the material realm, has no direct or indirect way of stopping Chaos, they cannot enter the eye of terror themselves without an almost certain risk of becoming tainted by chaos and from what I've heard about the way time works in the warp, its nigh impossible to actually kill a chaotic soldier as they are simply reborn in another form and in another time.

The imperium cannot win at all.

If all other races didnt exist and it was just chaos and the imperium it would be a stalemate, they cannot exist without eachother.

Yet if the eldar and other psycic races did exist then chaos could survivie without the imperium, albeit in a greatly weaker form.

I agree with that statement corpsesarefun, the only thing is, if Chaos did defeat the Imperium it doesn't mean that they would be weaker, if anything they would be stronger because they would have more worshippers as more and more planets convert to chaos.

hellsguardian316 wrote:I agree with that statement corpsesarefun, the only thing is, if Chaos did defeat the Imperium it doesn't mean that they would be weaker, if anything they would be stronger because they would have more worshippers as more and more planets convert to chaos.

I was considering defeating the imperium as completely wiping out all followers of the imperial cult, the majority of humans out there...

In that case I'm in complete agreement with you

corpsesarefun wrote:
If all other races didnt exist and it was just chaos and the imperium it would be a stalemate, they cannot exist without eachother.

That is why Chaos would never wipe out humanity. The Imperium itself would be destroyed, but humans would still exist, allowing Chaos to retain its full power and always pose the greatest threat to the Universe. But if humanity was COMPLETELY wiped out, Chaos would be all but destroyed. It would still be there, but it would be a very little threat to anybody.

but chaos would still exist

If you mean where all chaos works together ya chaos wins. But thats not how chaos rolls they gett in a bunch of hissy fits and fight with each other usually. With out the full force of all the Chaos gods attacking the Imperium wins.

What I'd like to know is this: Have the Chaos Gods (except Slannesh) always been present in the Universe, or is it just some raw psycic power that imitates things in the material Universe? I understand that Warp travel only became a nasty affair around the opening of the Horus Heresy. (I just remember this from Flight of the Eisenstein.) Is this because it was imitating humanity's savage spirit and using it against them, like some way of controlling life? If so, what about the Orks, they're incredibly violent, and what's the Necron's Star Gods all about? Are they "Chaos essence" too? Many things in the 40k Universe conflict with eachother, but hey, at least it gets us to talk about all of this stuff! Please enlighten me with your ruinous knowledge.

Cosmic thanks you all!

(P.S. Imagine if all this Dark Matter and Dark Energy science stuff was just like the Warp... Well, who knows for sure.)

Cosmic wrote: What I'd like to know is this: Have the Chaos Gods (except Slannesh) always been present in the Universe, or is it just some raw psycic power that imitates things in the material Universe? I understand that Warp travel only became a nasty affair around the opening of the Horus Heresy. (I just remember this from Flight of the Eisenstein.) Is this because it was imitating humanity's savage spirit and using it against them, like some way of controlling life? If so, what about the Orks, they're incredibly violent, and what's the Necron's Star Gods all about? Are they "Chaos essence" too? Many things in the 40k Universe conflict with eachother, but hey, at least it gets us to talk about all of this stuff! Please enlighten me with your ruinous knowledge.

Story time! It started 60 million years ago with the war between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr, soon to be Necrons. The Old Ones had the power to pretty much do anything they wanted, including creating new races. Which is what they started doing when the Necrontyr became the Necrons and started kicking their asses.

Now, before the war, the Warp wasn't like it is now. It was calm, the sentient creatures weren't considered daemons, and there were no dark gods in there. But that changed when the Necrons started destroying the Old Ones slowly. The Old Ones had to create new races that were more in tune with the warp (basically, LOTS more psykers) to push the 'crons back. That didn't help. The 'crons just kept killin' everyone.

So basically, the mix of death, war, agony, whacky emotions, and the fact that the new young races were more attuned to the Warp through it into Chaos, causing the first three Dark Gods to be born.

Also, the Orks are so dang violent cuz its just in their nature. And the Necron Star Gods, or the C'tan, are not part of the Warp at all. If anything, they want the Warp GONE cuz that's really the only thing that can truly kill them.

I hope that answers your questions.

That's more than answered my questions, ShadowAngel159 - Cheers!

So I get it now - The "Old Ones" (hadn't heard of that until yesterday) created the Orks to push the Necrontyr back... And they also created the Eldar (super psychers), but they pretty much messed up eventually. So, that explains why EVERYTHING (except Tryranids) is so humanoid and similar in appearance. It all makes sense now!

Cosmic wrote: That's more than answered my questions, ShadowAngel159 - Cheers!

So I get it now - The "Old Ones" (hadn't heard of that until yesterday) created the Orks to push the Necrontyr back... And they also created the Eldar (super psychers), but they pretty much messed up eventually. So, that explains why EVERYTHING (except Tryranids) is so humanoid and similar in appearance. It all makes sense now!

They also created Chaos to fight the Necrons.
So yeah, they created everyone but C'tan, Tyranids, and Necrontyr.

so they made every one almost and still lost?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so they made every one almost and still lost?

Yeah. The Old Ones had all this awesome science, technology, and near immortality, and yet they were still stupid enough to make the Young Races, screw up the Warp, AND lost the war!