Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

not sure if theres been a thread like this, if so i cant find it. This is essentially a discussion on which codex was better 3rd edition or 5th orks. in my opinion the ork codex was really more of a step down, while the fluff was definitely cool most of it was old stuff just compiled together into one place. the models were well done as well, however the army list wasnt well done at all. first and foremost was damage done to the regular boy like the loss of the choppa it was and integral part of any ork army making them truly deadly in combat now there only okay the only advantage coming from the number of models. no longer do you get to bring flamers with regular boys so no power weapons or template weapons and 1special weapon per 10 boys is just as crippling. the only advantages was the lower point value and the improvement of the shoota, pluses that hardly make up for the cons. now boys are are piece meal when facing terminators the only savior being the power klaw the nobs have which was in 3rd edition anyway. the 1 per 10 rule is completely unnecessary its not like other players were being blown away by orky firepower and that point decrease isnt really an improvement considering you have to make up for it with more expensive elite units, which might be okay if rules like glory hogs didnt exist. now you essentially have to sprint the tankbustas through most likely open ground or spend even more points on transport, because unless the enemy tank is outa sight they cant attack rendering them useless. ( another thing i dont like about the new codex is that nobs no longer have access to the armory which really was a big part for me it really made all the difference) loss of the skarboy well i don't sorrily miss this unit it would have made a cool up grade like the ard boy armor

also the loss of looted vehicles. when i first got into 40k i loved the orks because of the conversion possibility's and the new codex did nothing to support this most orky part of the hobby and now their telling me the my looted demolisher has only 11 armor and a 24 inch cannon only strength 8 or my looted basilisk is reduced to firing the same cannon or the russ thats lost the armor and is firing the same cannon, this tragady was heartbreaking and i wasnt about to call my "LOOTED RUSS" a battle wagon because its not, it just isnt no matter how you look at it, it deserves more than that. ork players put to much into there conversions to have them lowered to that level

so really all the codex did was weaken the orks close combat and there shooting as well, some people say that the orks are more shooty then before which is a lie. and how can you say they made it more shooty? because of the new shoota hardly or the grots improved bs? yeah right , loots? maybe but i had a looted squad that if anything did more damage than the lootas of today. the shock attack gun? is really a random weapon ive never fielded one looks like a fun unit to use but its not enough to make the orks shooty. they improved the small things that really needed to be improved and then ripped out the ork armys heart.

now im not saying that the orks are not able to win im just saying that the new codex has just hurt the army overall and the the hobby isnt as fun because of it

please post ur opinions on whether or not the ork codex is an improvement, this the codex not the models

Hilarious, quite frankly.

There have been several recent threads about the Orks, and I'm not turning this into one of those. The fact that I've posted, probably mean other people will, so if so, I apologise.

Anyway, the current Ork Dex is from 4th, not 5th. That's why you experience problems. In 4th, it was really good - an imporvement, even if several things (Zzap Guns, Choppas, Burnas 2d6 pen, even KMBs!) were inarguably better.

In third edition, the only competitive build was from the Speed Freeks list. And I didn't see many orks winning tournies in third edition.

That's because the players were better and tourneys weren't full of noobs.

3rd. I don't play Orks, and they were easier to kill.

If any Ork player thinks the third ed dex is better, his head isn't screwed on straight.

Just the fact that you can have scoring troops in trukks. I agree that I dont like the new looted vech. I do like the old days of having an IG or Marine Vech. That seems more looted to me.... But over all the new Dex is better IMO.

well what is it that makes this codex better? I really don't see any advantages the new ork codex provides that the 3rd didnt

The new codex doesn't let you take Leman Russes or Basilisks if you play as Deathskulls. I got the old Ork codex just before the new one came out and I had this beautifully planned army with Russes and lots of shoota boys.

Then the new codex came out and turned the Looted Russes into Looted Wagons, which are a terrible unit.

Cheap boyz frees up points for other stuff, though trukks are a waste of points for them because 12 boyz are a kill point just waiting to be shot to pieces. I like syuff like the special FOC modifiers for some characters, and some characters like Boss Snikrot and Kaptin Badrukk being unit enhancements instead of taking up HQ slots. I do miss Nazdreg, though.

@Cheese:
I only just got your avatar. Duh.

Cheese Elemental wrote:The new codex doesn't let you take Leman Russes or Basilisks if you play as Deathskulls. I got the old Ork codex just before the new one came out and I had this beautifully planned army with Russes and lots of shoota boys.

Then the new codex came out and turned the Looted Russes into Looted Wagons, which are a terrible unit.

Actually, that is one of the things the new Ork Codex got completely right.

Orks don't use human tech - they "Orkify" it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:The new codex doesn't let you take Leman Russes or Basilisks if you play as Deathskulls. I got the old Ork codex just before the new one came out and I had this beautifully planned army with Russes and lots of shoota boys.

Then the new codex came out and turned the Looted Russes into Looted Wagons, which are a terrible unit.

Actually, that is one of the things the new Ork Codex got completely right.

Orks don't use human tech - they "Orkify" it.

if your definition of "orkify" is take off all the armor cut off the barrel of a bassalisk and fire a weaker shell than yes they deffinitly "orkifyed" it alright

newer one because It is newer and fluffy

lootaboy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:The new codex doesn't let you take Leman Russes or Basilisks if you play as Deathskulls. I got the old Ork codex just before the new one came out and I had this beautifully planned army with Russes and lots of shoota boys.

Then the new codex came out and turned the Looted Russes into Looted Wagons, which are a terrible unit.

Actually, that is one of the things the new Ork Codex got completely right.

Orks don't use human tech - they "Orkify" it.

if your definition of "orkify" is take off all the armor cut off the barrel of a bassalisk and fire a weaker shell than yes they deffinitly "orkifyed" it alright

That's GW for you,creating "balance" without logic for a better universe.
Anyway more OT,I too miss the old choppa rule,Skarboyz & belive that the "looted wagons" rules is bland and unimaginitive,also don't much care for the "new" tankbustas (even though,god help me,I still use them).
Basicly I'm lukewarm about the Ork codex,many things I don't care for,but in honesty lots of good stuff to.

I don't know, I only really played a couple of times with the old Dex before the new one came out. There were definitely more upgrades to buy at the time, but at that point, I was also just buying wargear to make up points since I didn't have the models to field very much. I thought the old Mob Rule was neat, but never got to play it with loads of Boyz. I haven't seen many folks lament its loss though, so I'm guessing it didn't work that well.

Looted Wagons, well, they're definitely generic, but I can honestly say that I've had good luck with them in games, so they're not the worst thing out there. Had I my choice though, the rule would be a simple 'pay what the looted model is worth, take a point of AV from each side, give it Don't Press Dat (and make Don't Press Dat even crazier) and run it at BS2' after that, on with the upgrades! Definitely need to make Don't Press Dat stranger though, I'd love to see vehicles flipping over and exploding from a 1, but then again, I like that sort of random stuff.

Aside from that, there are things I'd like to have seen in the new book, but didn't. I'm sure everyone can say that though. Realistically, so long as some of the silly things like Shokk Attack Guns have come back, I'm pretty happy.

I loved Mobbing Up...

What is the "good" stuff about the codex other than the fluff?

lootaboy wrote:What is the "good" stuff about the codex other than the fluff?

Well,a short and by no means complette list of some of the "good" stuff would include,FNP Nobz mobz (which can be taken as troops if your fielding a Warboss),Nobz biker mobz (I'll probably go to hell for that),Burna boyz mobz (put them in a battle wagon and watch the fun ensue) and Lootas.
As I said,I'm lukewarm on the current Ork codex,there are many things I miss from the old one (choppa rule,mobing up,etc.),but I don't belive the current codex is bad,besides,my other army is a Death Guard force,and after what GW did to the CSM codex I have to try to hold on to some hope.

3rd Edition Speed Freaks, without question, was the better codex. As long, as you are talking about pre-nerf. GW tried to kill that codex on several occasions.



1. When you first got your Ork Codex, Burnaz were 2d6 against vehicles when used in flamer mode. So you could run up and flame 2 or more vehicles that were bunched up, and roll 2d6 against all of them. They changed the wording on that weapon later on.

2. You could have multiple Mekboyz with KFFs spread out through your army.

3. Burna boy units could ride in Truks.

4. Warbuggies could be troops.

5. The Mob up rule was better, and certainly the KoS rule where you reached a vehicle, automounted, and autorallied was great.

6. You could mix your command squad, with MN, and Regular Nobz.

7. CHOPPAS- Cant tell you how much better this was if you weren't there. Throw some Skarboyz at a unit of Terminators and watch them roll 4+ armor saves and get wiped out.

8. KFF- was better, you could only glance vehicles.

9. You could have a Land Raider....that's right, my Warboss and Command squad rolled around in a Land Raider. This also got FAQ/Nerfed later on as well.

10. Grot Riggers were better- Back then, you rolled at the start of your turn, and could then move in THAT turn, instead of waiting a turn.

11. You could have 3 Burnaz in the Skarboy mobs, and I believe the Regular units could only have 1? Can't remember. But, Skarboyz were Elites, and st4, so much better.



Anyway, I'm sure there is more, but those are just some of the reasons that old school KoS was awesome. As to the statement about tournaments, I just guess it depends on where you played. Where I played, KoS, Rhino Rush Blood Angels and Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar ruled the world. You might want to check some of the national tournaments from back then, 98-00 or so, I think Orks were very well represented.


Oh, before I forget. This is what GW did to "nerf" this codex.


1. Changed the wording on the Burna.
2. Made you model your mekboy on top of the vehicle so that you had to measure from the actual model for the KFF, not the hull of his ride.
3. Changed the way the KFF worked, so that the ENTIRE vehicel had to be under it to get the benefit.

THose are just a few.


Clay

@ primarch
Concerning point # 11. You could not only have 3 burna boyz in your Skarboyz mob (I miss Skarboyz),but also in your basic slugga boyz mobz as well,combined with a PK Nob and the old choppa rule and even a mob of slugga boyz could eat MEQs alive.

Clay, you're making me so nostalgic I almost felt the prickle of a tear.

Damn I loved my KoS...

I can't believe this was a thread.

If you don't see exactly how much better the 4th Ed Codex is over the old 3rd Ed dex, you weren't playing competitive 40k.

Orks went from one of the worst armies in the game to a metagame-changing powerhouse of an army.

It depends on what Edition of 40k you are playing man. If you are playing 3rd edition, then that old KoS was the shizzle. If you are playing 4th or later, then yeah, the new one is much better.

Re-read my thread, the KoS was awesome in it's heyday. Then GW slowly put out FAQ after FAQ that slowly nerfed it to death. At the end of 3rd it was nowhere near as powerful as was early in 3rd.



Oh well, the new stuff is good, but with LOS blocking terrain, you could move up, hide that army, then charge through the terrain and slam into them on turn 2, with damn near your whole army.



Good times....



Clay

How far back did Kult of the Armored Top rule?

ZF-

Brother SRM wrote:If any Ork player thinks the third ed dex is better, his head isn't screwed on straight.

In terms of being able to represent the actual fluff of the armies the 3rd edition codex is leaps and bounds better. Especially with the Klan add-on rules.

While the 4th ed. Codex is "more" competitive it complete dumbs down orks and kills almost all variety. My Speed Freeks are completely unrepresented as:

1) Buggies can't be troops
2) Vehicles can no longer score
3) No longer being able to shoot out of a vehicle that moves over 6'
4) Removal of Burnas in Boy squads
5) Gun Trukks going the way of the Do-Do for no reason
6) Change from the old Waaagh! rule to the new drab and over used Furious Charge which hurts small Trukk boy squads
7) Removal of Outriders (Bikers with Scout)
8) Addition of the boring "Extra Armor" which now is only good 1/6th of the time for a points cost that doesn't match
9) Grot Riggers getting worse by being moved to the shooting phase instead of the begining of the movement phase
10) Grenade change so that giving grenades to anything in your army, besides Nobz, is a pointless endeavor as it it a complete waste of points.
11) Change of Cover and LoS rules

That is just the representation of the Speed Freeks and only some of the examples of the disparities.

Primarch hit the nail on the head. It depends on the edition of 40k.

Trukks got undoubtedly better, by way of cost, but the small squad sizes, and lack of burnas and inability to shoot out of a vehicle moving at cruising speed, and lack of leaves the staple of the Speed Freeks severly hampered.

Speed Freeks used to be a shooty list. They towed more twin linked shots onto the field than you knew what to do with. Speed Freeks were about moving fast and applying firepower and drive by flame templates where they were needed. The old fashioned "Shoot and Scoot."

5th Ed. finally shut the style of play down but the 4th edition codex stunted it by leaps and bounds in it's day.

Still, even with the new 5th Ed. rules, I think the 3rd Ed. Codex represents the Ork army the best. I might be approaching this from a non competitive point of view but what is this game if you don't enjoy playing it? As a result of the new Codex and 5th Ed. combined my Speed Freeks have been shelved until the next edition when some of the slowed changes that neuter the functionality of my army are reverted or outright changed.

Guntrukks...they were the single biggest loss, IMO. Okay, I could probably use it as a Looted Wagon, but mine were literally Trukks with Big Gunz strapped on - I had to snap them back off :(

I miss the speed Freeks codex. Orks now feel a little to samey. But for me the real loss in 5th compared to 4th with my freeks are two things...
1. The auto rally if you could get back in the trukk. Orks had one of the best morale in the game. Lots of times I would have a lone nob or the nob and one or two buddies rally in their trukk two or three times per game.
2. True line of site. Key to victory was keeping the trukks hidden behind area terrain, until you could zip out and drop the hammer on your opponent. Getting 4+ cover saves does just about squat for an armour 10 vehicle.

My KOS now in 5th edition, is not nearly as good as it was. My buggies never take the field. The boyz break and run on the first morale check. Terminators, land raiders and monoliths are very difficult targets. I understand why that is, but it doesn't mean I have to like it heh.

Now on the other hand the new ork book is very good for footslogging, I like being able to use my old SAG, the new models are great. My problem is that I always liked the KOS style, and it is weak with the new codex.