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I have just read the post outlining what constitutes as "silly" in this forum. I hope this does not count. If anyone looks at my intro post in, well, the Introductions Board, they will see I have joined this board to expand my consult in a project I am undertaking. After reading several reviews of the new Chaos Daemons codex I have noted an agreement among these reviewers, that the Chaos Daemon army seems ill equipped to handle heavy fire. Now what my project is trying to accomplish is develop my own supplement of units for the Army and 2 years from now build and paint new units and field them as part of my army. The first stage of this process is to develop a fitting, cohesive, non-contradictory back story for a new chaos God. So this is what I have so far, a skeleton concept. Note no name yet, help please. If this is not the appropriate place note that this is what at least a couple foum members told me to do.

In the millenia following the Horus Heresy the Emperor ruled unchallenged over man. During this period mankind has grown numerous, and simultaneously grown into a state of squalar and ignorance. The average person is an unnoticed blip on the screen of the life support system of a sad race. Though mankind has it's mighty warriors and grand rulers, the majority of humanity is depraved and enslaved to an invented religion. Billions upon Billions of humans fed a new warp power. Just as the Eldar collapsed from their decadent ways giving rise to Slaanesh, Humanity has forged with it's despair and ignorance the 5th Chaos God. But this is not all, for they who are great in the empire, the orders sent to deal with daemonic invasion, heresy and mutation, have fueled this power as well. For the 5th entity is two fold in form, half formed of humanities overall monotony and enslavement and half from it's insufferable paranoia and self righteousness. Little could they see that the seeds of chaos are everywhere, even in the effort to exterminate it they have reaped it. Forced order is nothing more than chaos cloaked under a facade of order and mortal law. The Chaos God has remained secret and hiddensince it's birth. Unlike Slaanesh's dramatic birth scream and formation of the eye of terror, this one has come subtley, barely noticed by even the all knowing Tzeentch. Psykers seem ignorant to it, as if it does not exist. But now it's daemons are coming out of hiding to put forth it's young but powerful bid in the Great Game, and to spread paranoia, enslavement and madness amongst the inhabitants of the Galaxy.

Well that is my skeleton. tell me what you think. If you don't like it tell me why. If you can or desire to help me develop it. If I am lucky (and in a very ideal and nerd serving universe) maybe GW will buy (or steal if it could be called stealing, the concept of the Chaos gods is afterall their intellectual property) the invention. If you need me to not post such things here, or anywhere, merely kick me off the forum by notifying the moderators, I would not be offended. Stuff like this is risky business, I am liable to hit some tender spots. But that is the reason for my consult, whenever I join a hobby I am not satisfied with just participating in it, I learn to create my own within it (I took up cello when i was 9, i now write music, I took up bodybuilding in my teens and developed my own excersises etc etc). I cannot merely play and collect armies i have to develop new ones. But in my inexperience I need help. Thankyou for anything you can offer.

Not a deamon player but it sounds quite good so far.

Though it is pathetic to bump ones own threads. I thought of a name. Eres-Kern, plus have to say thankyou for anyone who took the time to read this today, makes me feel special. I was thinking of the God Eres-Kern being a dual entity. One side blind and ignorant but immensly powerful and the other a parasitic governing power that was intensely paranoid. The two would both be madd gods, prone to violent outbursts born from a shear conflict between the two of them. The one representing paranoia would be Eres and the one representing feelings of hopelessness and enslavement would be Kern. They are considered one entity as they are bonded to one another. Kern, a blind, stupid, powerhouse and Eres a wildly paranoid creature that is little more than an ever moving eye, ever looking for threats. This would explain it's long held secrecy, it did not act for it was bound by it's paranoia and maddness. Now it has learned to do something about it's own nature and has spawned daemons to assist it in it's desperate quest to make it's own misery go away. Eres is primarily a feminine entity and Kern is male, though both of these genders do not adequately describe the altogether maddening persona that his dual entity possesses. This particular God would have opposition to nurgle and Tzeentch especially because both have enthusiasm and intellect that this chaos God lacks. It is a miserable creature and it's daemons are similarly miserable. All of it's daemons are dual in nature with an aspect of Eres and an aspect of Kern represented in them.
Not my best peice of concept work, but i hope i can refine it. If this is at all cohesive with what people say about the 40k cannon let me know. I am almost ready to move onto the arguous task of visually designing the daemons of Eres-Kern (I am a pour artist), consequently ending this stage of the project for now.
If I could I would pay one of the talented artists here to take what i have said and turn it into something visually stunning. But I think that is impossible.
by the way been reading some other threads here, some very good thoughts about the future of the 40k Universe.

Sounds quite good! I always like it when people try and customise the warhammer world as long as it is fairly done after all why should be be constraind to just the imagianation of the GW Developers. Keep up the good work.

I was designing some deamons of Malal at one stage for the sons of malaice cosising of flaming skeletons in captured power Armour. The Fluff behind them was as they where not wholly turned to chaos but still hated the Imperium they would ritually scrifice captives or willing Sons of Malice (A-la Aztec sacrifice) with bits of modifed power armour and in in this process of scrifice the Armour acts as a deamon host or cage (a bit thousand sons I know but the models I had planed were a bit more lithe and deamonic levitateing, flaming swords and balls of fire leaping from thier fingers and all that fun). Some people may have hated it some like it but at the end of the day it would have been my own stamp on the 40K universe.

Thanx you two for stroking my ego. I think I will begin making sketch drafts now and post them in the appropriate board, It will probably take me a few weeks to come up the the first few. i will continue mulling over what to do next. By the way I have loved the concept of Malal since i became aware of him. Almost immediatly after reading the Chaos Daemon's codex I thought that there was something missing, and began a search for the 5th Chaos God. Lo and behold there were a thousand and one forum posts throughout the web on this beloved and lost Chaos God, who really could have filled in the gaping void present in the mythos. I hope I can construct something graphically and conceptually close to par with that awesome peice of work.
Thankyou both, You all probably won't hear too much about this for a while, unless inspiration hits. It did not seem to draw that much attention anyway. I could have done with a bit more brutal criticism, I like harsh criticism keeps one on the right track. Oh well.
Bye for now


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P.s.
I really liked your bound armour concept Obsidian, do you have pictures of any of those models? I will probably do something quite different but ilike the idea, reflects Malal very well.

Unfortunatly it never reached that stage. It may be on the table for later though. I never do drawings as I sculpt Waaaaaaaaaaaay betterthan I can draw.

The main reason Malal dosn't rally get a look in these days is a copyright issue, it not strictly owned by GW but they seen to trying to find ways round it.

The only down side I can see with making your own god is that some of the more narrow minded gamers may not let you play with them, but if you use 'counts as' rules you should be able to get away with it . Thats about the harshest critque I can give. Too many people see the 40K universe to be set in stone and not as a dynamic sand pit/box.

Uh... Ignorance and Hopelessness/Despair are already sort of the domain of Nurgle. Especially Despair.

And, really Paranoia is Tzeentchian.

For a minor god, though, I suppose I could see it existing in the gap between Nurgle and Tzeentch. Maybe a developing power was unfortunate enough to get between the two rivals and become their plaything?

Unfortunatly it never reached that stage. It may be on the table for later though. I never do drawings as I sculpt Waaaaaaaaaaaay betterthan I can draw.

The main reason Malal dosn't rally get a look in these days is a copyright issue, it not strictly owned by GW but they seen to trying to find ways round it.

The only down side I can see with making your own god is that some of the more narrow minded gamers may not let you play with them, but if you use 'counts as' rules you should be able to get away with it . Thats about the harshest critque I can give. Too many people see the 40K universe to be set in stone and not as a dynamic sand pit/box.

Hope to see those fielded soon if time is not too short. The local Gamers in my area are pretty liberal as far as I can tell and would probably love to see how what I come with will play out. But it will put the total options in the army list over the cap. i have been mislead by other army lists (particularly the IG) that they have more choices in each category. That really is not the case, they merely have different versions of the same choices. There are a slew of possible Hq choices when one includes the heralds and their daemonic mounts. The troop choices are a little limited but the fast attack and elite choices are about right if a little bit limited in options and add-ons. The real suffering area is heavy support. The 4 possible Daemon Princes are not significantly different from each other and the soul Grinder (have not used one yet but so I hear) is not very effective as an anti-tank unit. But alot of this is based on the opinion of reviewers. Maybe I will start a thread addressing any imbalances in the Army. Maybe it is completely balanced. In any case it still seemed like it was missing something. I instantly fell in love with the army and that is why I chose to spend the massive amount of money starting the hobby without the assault on black reach starter kit (I really just did not want to use Space Marines or Orks, seemed like everyone used those). The plan is the conceptualize a set of gifts, a greater Daemon, a herald, a troop choice, an elite choice and a heavy support choice. I don't know if a fast attack option is in the works but I will have to see. I hope they are not just played but are worthy of imitation. When I begin something like this I am always very careful and I do not care how many years it takes, afterall a hobby with a deadline is no longer a hobby, it is a job, i would like to keep this a hobby. But I am shooting for 2 years before fielding this small first project. I will then probably move on to designing a whole new army altogether, but we will see.
Thankyou for you advice.


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Uh... Ignorance and Hopelessness/Despair are already sort of the domain of Nurgle. Especially Despair.

And, really Paranoia is Tzeentchian.

For a minor god, though, I suppose I could see it existing in the gap between Nurgle and Tzeentch. Maybe a developing power was unfortunate enough to get between the two rivals and become their plaything?

Thankyou Orkeosaurus. That is the sort of criticism I am looking for, really makes me happy. Being a newb I need this. However from everything I have read, Tzeentch seems more of a representation of classic obsessive compulsive urges, driven not by paranoia but by a nature that seeks to have everything under it's control for control's sake. Tzeentch seems actually quite confident most of the time and sure of himself. Though i am sure you have read and researched far more than me, so i will have the reconsider my concept. I never thought of Nurgle being a representation of despair, despite the fact that I have read that. It seems that Nurgle truly desires happiness for his followers, but that happiness (the strange warped kind) is found by embracing His diseased gifts and enjoying the filth around ones self. Perhaps I have not thought about this correctly, for I have tried to see the personal attitudes and persona's of the Chaos Gods as demonstrations of their emotional origins. Rather i should think of the emotions they elicit from their victims. Tzeentch is so all knowing that anyone should be paranoid of him and Nurgle's rot sounds like enough to bring any person to the lowest state of despair.I did read that Nurgle's followers often join him to find relief from the pain of his diseases. I have alot to think about now. I did not really want to focus on the idea of despair, as much as I wanted to focus on the idea of monotony, the constant drawl of a meager existence and complete ignorance as to the depravity of that life. THis goes hand in hand with the idea of insanity. Though Fateweaver is definitely insane, He is still intelligent enough to articulate his maddening visions. The God I envision is an idiot God, in loose terms, that is it is totally incoherent (think Helen Keller before they found out she had a Genius IQ), though it's power is massive. The idea of having a second slightly more intelligible part to this entity is actually quite latent. The paranoia goes hand in hand with the overall theme of monotony and maddness. A miserable god, in the sense that it can never realize itself, because it's paranoid self is always aloof from it's monotonous self. Overall I wanted to represent the inherent chaotic evils of the Imperium of man, especially of it's inconsideration for the majority of human life. The vast majority of humans in the 40k universe seem to be sad beings, not ravaged by disease of any kind, but ravaged by the shear weight of going no where and having no real freedom from the Imperium. It is the monotony of their existence that gives this being power. The paranoia of the leadership feeds it's own paranoia.
I don't think this really helps explain this better. I think you are right, these may be an unfit set of emotions to create a Chaos God from. I will have to do some serious thinking.
Thanx

Been doing some searching, reading, and looking. I have to agree whole heartedly with Orkeosaurus here. My concept is already covered by Tzeentch and Nurgle, so far it is the basterd child of the two (ewwww, it's all squishy). So I think perhaps I should base this concept completely on the concept of insanity. While the other chaos Gods certainly drive people insane or to become mindless, the greatest mortal champions of the Four Chaos Gods are those who can resist the mindless insanity brought on by the myriad gifts of Chaos. May I submit that i go with the mindless idiot God, concept... period. Think Lovecrafts Azathoth in the warhammer 40k universe. While deep in power, is also utterly unintelligent, participating in the great game without knowledge of what it is, or why it should care. Technically a God of the insane, irrational intentions of all species, separate from Khornes ideal of violence, Tzeentch's ideal of magical power and intense intricacy, Slaanesh's ideal of self gratification and Nurgle's ideal of reveling in filth and decomposition. The new God will essentially be uncontrollable, a God like a chaos spawn, but infinitely more powerful, insanity incarnate. Not driven by any desires whatsoever, being violent without a threat, being placid in the face of destruction completely implacable, a gibbering warp mass of such mind numbing simplexity(term invented by R. Buckminster Fuller) that schizophrenia seems like the only option for the mortal mind to cope with a vision of this god. In fact this may work better for me, as I need the units to have an exploitable weakness like all units do, they will all have the mindless special rule, and random attacks. But that is for another thread.

I will now need to rename it somewhat, i will do some searching for God's without much in the way of brains, and mix and modify some name from there. I would still like to have the dual creature in one approach in design, but i don't know how to work out the fluff to make it work, maybe multiple personalities. Definitely by this point this God would rival tzeentch in the mutation department. But perhaps it might be better if it tends to warp minds more often than bodies. A God whose Daemons specialize in making the enemy collapse before any casualties. They induce insanity, making them unable to attack, because they are humming children's songs or digressing into child like states. Entire units of space marines losing their nerve and having paranoid schizophrenic episodes. Even Necrons suffering programming failure and severe corruption that causes them to revert to animals, running on all fours and pawing at the earth, unaware of their present danger.
I hope this can meet some standards here, if this cannot avoid the, "well that really is such and such's department" or "that is really more nurgly" then i will discontinue this endevor and leave the forum for more capable and intelligent people than myself. I really do not deserve to post here unless i can bring something new and valuable.

Hmmm - blindly wielded power mixed by paranoid adherence to a self-rightous and fundamentally evil ideal thats come to power since the Horus Heresy???

You have your 5th Chaos god, for he is the Emperor!

(nice ideas btw).

This is allowed, however, it belongs in "dakka fiction"

darkkt wrote:Hmmm - blindly wielded power mixed by paranoid adherence to a self-rightous and fundamentally evil ideal thats come to power since the Horus Heresy???

You have your 5th Chaos god, for he is the Emperor!

(nice ideas btw).

Besides obvious "OMG YOU IZ THE HERETIC LOLOLOLOL!" comments, you raise a good point here. The Emperor has in recent fluffacted like a chaos god, even if inderectly.

Nice ideas BTW. If I was designing a 5th god, I would of gone for Famine as the aspect-but meh, whatever you wanna do.

(A cookie for whoever gets the reference here )

Nice ideas BTW. If I was designing a 5th god, I would of gone for Famine as the aspect-but meh, whatever you wanna do.

Thankyou, this is completely compatible with the concept by the way. If you know some bible stories, you will find that starvation and madness both occured to King Nebuchadnezzar. Which gives me an idea for a name.

Also, sorry if this is in the wrong forum section, this is where the moderators told me to go, so that is why it is here.

The Emperor being a chaos god is nothing new from what i have read in other threads, but it is definitely something I disagree with. The Chaos God's are planters of just that, Chaos. Chaos itself is the realm of contradiction, as one might say a world of "ex falso quadlibet" that is , from nonsense follows "whatever". A strange non-deductive logic where ex falso quadlibet is the only rule used or needed. If any of you have taken classical logic you should know this rule of natural deduction as inherently valid, but it is difficult to say why. The Emperor on the other hand is what I can only describe as the personification of axiomatic logical deduction. He determines his course of action based on a rigid set of laws, that through deductive procedures determines the most coherent conclusion that is adequately derived from those rules given a situation. In essence a turing machine on a rampage. Definitely not chaotic, because it is void of confusion and feeling, but definitely logical.

`This does not mean he is good. I personally chose Chaos, because I loved the fact that the Chaos God's were passionate. I saw Nurgle as the most righteous being in the universe, compassionate, loving, determined, perhaps a little over the top on the loving part, but definitely a good being, completely unaware (it seems) that his "gifts" are harmful. He above all seems to be generous and caring. If everyone in the universe followed Nurgle there would be no suffering, but if that were to happen Nurgle would cease to exist as well as the Other Chaos Gods, hence why they are Chaotic, contradiction is the only means by which they survive at all. Of course you all know this, everybody who knows this mythos knows this, what I mean to say is the Emperor is not a Chaos God, but I definitely see him as the antagonist in the whole story of the Warhammer 40k Universe.


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Oh yah Little Lord Fauntleroy. I got the reference I think. You are aligning the Chaos Gods with the demons of Pandoras box. Nurgle is disease, Khorne is war, Tzeentch is envy (and some other stuff) and Slaanesh is well....every other little naughty thing you can think of, that involves leather, hooks and soft cheese.

Close-it was more The four horsemen of the Apocalypse-Nurgle as Pestilence, Khorne as war, Slaanesh as death, and Tzeentch is the only one that is hard to aline, hence famine. If that's what you meant, I apologise.

Have a cookie on me .

Hmmm... You could make him the god of deciet.

I like it for a concept sketch of the models or a baseline look if you don't have one maybe this mgiht help: The Eres side has a whole muscaltory system but no eye, while the Kern sude has no muscles just a skeleton but he has 1 eye which is bulgign and swollen and has veines all overr it.

The warp is home to more than 4 gods, its just that the 4 chaos gods are the most powerful. all of the eldar gods (alive or dead), gork and mork were all born in the warp, the idea is good due to vast number of humans, but due to the emperors massive psychic powers has a large presance in the warp, so a large amount of that energy would go to him, while the rest would go to the 4 chaos gods.

a good idea would be an ancient deamon prince who has slowly carved out his own 'terratory' in the warp by getting followers, the whole idea is once enough people think you are a god, you are a god and the great thing about humans is all you have to do is offer a little bit power and they will follow you to the end of the universe

BluntmanDC wrote: The warp is home to more than 4 gods, its just that the 4 chaos gods are the most powerful.

I dunno about that.

"The strength of Gork and Mork is too strong to ever be quelled and when confronting the gods of other races they can never truly be vanquished." From the Codex.

As for thinking up more Gods, I don't see why not. Hell, I think that making a Chaos Daemon Army of Hashut sounds pretty fun. I have a few Bull Centaurs and a Lammasu from my WHFB days still, they could respectively use the rules for Bloodletters and a Daemon Prince of Khorne I suppose. XD

thanks all. Just to let you know I have moved this discussion to Dakka Fiction, due to the suggestion of one of y'all. I do realize than there are many more gods in the warp, the Horned rat and Hashut in WHFB. However this one will be unique to 40k. And also, i have changed the name to Za'Neb with the same idea in mind (two entities in one), but capitilizing on the insanity aspect. I will likely use Fish like organisms mixed with faceless humanoid forms, as an artistic basis for the Daemons (taken from the fact that male angler fish are parisitic on the female angler fish, this is how I want to show the parisitic nature of one on the other), I like the Idea of having one side being nothing but muscle and the other being nothing but bone and eye. I will take it into consideration in design. I am now going to write a full sketch in the Dakka fiction section. Thankyou all.